Thoughts about the Frozen

[BlackArchon]

I played with the Frozen (WM 8.33) for some days. So I got some questions:

- Why aren't Ice Golems immune to cold damage? They didn't even have the resist cold promotion. I mean, they are made of ice! Most of my other units are immune to cold damage - due to their race, ice demon. The Lanun cast their world spell, and who dies? Some Ice Golems...

- Why should I waste hammers to build Taranis? He is completely useless if your capital (or the city where he is built) isn't attacked. If I could transport him through a Obsidian Gate, he could defend new conquered cities. But now? No use of him.

- I also find it confusing that Mulyalfar Elfs are vulnerable to cold damage. Of course, this is because of their elfish race (-25% cold resistance), but this doesn't seem to be appropiate if they live in an arctic climate. At least they need +50% resistance to cold damage, so that they have +25% cold resistance in result.

- Why aren't all my units immune to the Wintered promotion? Nearly all my units are ice demons!

 

[TC01]

I played with the Frozen (WM 8.33) for some days. So I got some questions:

- Why aren't Ice Golems immune to cold damage? They didn't even have the resist cold promotion. I mean, they are made of ice! Most of my other units are immune to cold damage - due to their race, ice demon. The Lanun cast their world spell, and who dies? Some Ice Golems...

Good question. Probably because I never thought of it when I stole the unit from Age of Ice, where there is no such thing as Cold Damage (just blizzards).

I'm planning another update to the Frozen when I merge Advanced Ice Nodes (still being worked on), so maybe I'll give them this whe I do.

- Why should I waste hammers to build Taranis? He is completely useless if your capital (or the city where he is built) isn't attacked. If I could transport him through a Obsidian Gate, he could defend new conquered cities. But now? No use of him.

As a last-ditch defense plan. Since he's Immortal, which means when he dies he respawns in your capital.

So let's say you're losing,your empire is getting invaded by massive armies and your capital is attacked. Taranis defends your capital and keeps it alive long enough for you to hopefully fight back.

Then let's say he gets killed and the capital is taken. Taranis, as an immortal unit, should then respawn in your new capital.

And so on, until you're down to one city. Then Taranis defends it until you kill him twice on the same turn, at which point you're finished.

However, it would be nice if you could Obsidian Gate him- other people have mentioned this too. I don't know how to do this, however, without DLL modifications. Maybe giving him zero movement rather than Held?

- I also find it confusing that Mulyalfar Elfs are vulnerable to cold damage. Of course, this is because of their elfish race (-25% cold resistance), but this doesn't seem to be appropiate if they live in an arctic climate. At least they need +50% resistance to cold damage, so that they have +25% cold resistance in result.

When I first worked on the Mulyalfar, they were a seperate civilization. I did create an Ice Elf promotion that had cold resistance and bonuses fighting on snow.

However, when I scrapped this idea and decided to just make the Mulyalfar Elf a Druid UU for ice-themed civs, I never implemented the promotion. It would probably be a good idea to do so- I think I probably still have it somewhere, and if I don't I can easily rewrite it.

I'll do this in the update.

- Why aren't all my units immune to the Wintered promotion? Nearly all my units are ice demons!

Um... yet another good question.

In the updated version of the Frozen, I stopped Wintered units from passing Wintered in combat to reduce the amount of Frozen Souls being created. This makes it difficult for your units to get Wintered.

But yes, Ice Demons should (and will) be made immune to it.

 

[BlackArchon]

Thanks for your very fast answers.

Ok, and I see your point about Taranis. Maybe I shouldn't have built him in my capital. Oh, and removing the Held promotion but giving him 0 movement isn't such a good idea, because then you could give him +1 movement from the Body I spell, Haste. He shouldn't be alive to prevent this. And he should be unable to get the Mobility I promotion.

Maybe you remember the time when Acheron the Red Dragon didn't have the Held promotion, but 0 movement in vanilla FFH2. You could feed him with enough XP so that he was able to get the Mobility I promotion after capturing him. Don't underestimate our exploit-finding abilities.

 

[TC01]

Thanks for your very fast answers.

Ok, and I see your point about Taranis. Maybe I shouldn't have built him in my capital. Oh, and removing the Held promotion but giving him 0 movement isn't such a good idea, because then you could give him +1 movement from the Body I spell, Haste. He shouldn't be alive to prevent this. And he should be unable to get the Mobility I promotion.

Maybe you remember the time when Acheron the Red Dragon didn't have the Held promotion, but 0 movement in vanilla FFH2. You could feed him with enough XP so that he was able to get the Mobility I promotion after capturing him. Don't underestimate our exploit-finding abilities.

Well, I don't remember that- I do remember when he could move about even as a barbarian (even if I wasn't a member back then... I was playing FFH 2 back then). Not fun, especially on a Boreal map.

But yes, I see the point.

Are there any other ways to give units movement that would need blocking if I did that?

 

[BlackArchon]

As long as the Hippus' world spell and the Austrin's ability to ride pegasi are no problems for Taranis, I see no other possibilities of gaining an additional movement point.

Then there are such things like fear and the Roar ability from dragons which can move a unit. But units in towns aren't affected by fear attacks, but they can be moved by the Roar ability, IIRC.

And think of ships: a player could try to load him into a ship, this shouldn't be allowed, too.

 

[tesb]

@TC01
if you want to fix this for wildmana i would keep him shackled for now, since there is magic overhaul coming (well it is almost there) with new mechanics.

 

[TC01]

@TC01
if you want to fix this for wildmana i would keep him shackled for now, since there is magic overhaul coming (well it is almost there) with new mechanics.

Well, I wouldn't be fixing it for Wildmana, I'd be fixing it for the independent Frozen mod.

I think what I'd actually do is add a new XML tag that does the equivalent of Hold but allows the unit to airlift. I don't like editing the DLL just for something as small as this but I don't see any better way to do it with just XML and Python. Because for every spell that pushes units around, every promotion that adds movement... Taranis would need to be a special case.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think what I'll do in RifE is simply leash him to his tile, with no range of movement.

This means if he gets pushed off the tile, he can move back to the leash. He can airlift, he can do whatever (though would probably want to reset the leash if he airlifts....), he just can't move on his own.

One side effect: He'd actually be able to attack, if the enemy is right next to him. But frankly, I'm okay with that.

 

[tesb]

Well, I wouldn't be fixing it for Wildmana, I'd be fixing it for the independent Frozen mod.

I think what I'd actually do is add a new XML tag that does the equivalent of Hold but allows the unit to airlift. I don't like editing the DLL just for something as small as this but I don't see any better way to do it with just XML and Python. Because for every spell that pushes units around, every promotion that adds movement... Taranis would need to be a special case.

i understand, but doesn't changing the dll makes it way harder to merge the mod? anyways i just wanted to let you know

 

[TC01]

i understand, but doesn't changing the dll makes it way harder to merge the mod? anyways i just wanted to let you know

Yes, it does, that's why I don't like doing it for things like this.

I think what I'll do in RifE is simply leash him to his tile, with no range of movement.

This means if he gets pushed off the tile, he can move back to the leash. He can airlift, he can do whatever (though would probably want to reset the leash if he airlifts....), he just can't move on his own.

One side effect: He'd actually be able to attack, if the enemy is right next to him. But frankly, I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with that too- for RiFE. For Wildmana and vanilla, I guess we'd need to use something like the new XML tag I mentioned.

 

[Valkrionn]

I would suggest trying DOMAIN_IMMOBILE (I don't know if that allows airlifting or not), but the AI never promotes units with that domain. If Taranis doesn't promote (don't remember), it may work. Worth a shot at least.

 

[Sephi]

I'm okay with that too- for RiFE. For Wildmana and vanilla, I guess we'd need to use something like the new XML tag I mentioned.

It's few lines in the DLL, I can send it to you in case you want to make your own DLL.

 

[TC01]

It's few lines in the DLL, I can send it to you in case you want to make your own DLL.

I'm capable of doing it myself, that's not the reason I don't want to do it. That's because that merging it with other mods becomes more of an issue.

But before I do that, I'm going to give DOMAIN_IMMOBILE a try.

 

[Sephi]

I'm capable of doing it myself, that's not the reason I don't want to do it. That's because that merging it with other mods becomes more of an issue.

I know you can do that. Just wanted to save you time since I already added and tested it, but ok.

 

[TC01]

I know you can do that. Just wanted to save you time since I already added and tested it, but ok.

...oh. Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant.

Is this already in Wildmana, then? Or will it be added in 9.0 or another future version?

Yes, could you please either post it here or PM it to me? That would save some time, thanks.

 

[BlackArchon]

Well, I wouldn't be fixing it for Wildmana, I'd be fixing it for the independent Frozen mod.
...

What do you mean with this statement? The Frozen aren't going to be changed in WM?

 

[tesb]

i think he means if it gets fixed in the original mod a remerge fixes it in all mods
besides the tanaris telport fix, which sephi has already done, all your points in the op are easily fixable by some minor xml changes

 

[BlackArchon]

Ah ok, very well.

 

[BlackArchon]

Ok, another question: The Frozen don't have any units which can use the Heal ability. Is this intended?

 

[TC01]

Ok, another question: The Frozen don't have any units which can use the Heal ability. Is this intended?

Neither do the Illians, unless I'm missing something.

I'm not sure about "intended"- I never intended to give them a unit with the Heal ability, so they never got one, and they don't have any other unit capable of using Heal. So partly intended, partly unintended.

Do you think Priests of Winter should get Heal? Or some other unit? Or a brand new unit?