Thoughts about the Gospels

Quasar1011 said:
Judas did not betray Jesus for gold, but for silver. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the accounts, get your facts straight, and re-think your position.
Gold or silver was not the point. Dida's point, which you ignored, is that Jesus needed to be killed to fulfill his mission. For this to happen with certainty, someone, somewhere had to suspend free will. It certainly appears that Judas was working for god and that Jesus knew it. According to the bible without judas to betray him, jesus would not have been taken by the Romans. The fact that jesus was destined to die on the cross clearly means that god was making sure that the right people got the message and acted according to plan. Judas is the easiest to indentify as god's agent, but it could have been Pontius or rabble rousers in the crowd. Judas is the actual hero of the story; the go to guy who made it all happen just as god willed.
 
Not so fast, BirdJaguar. I wouldn't say that there was any suspension of free will. The inevitability of Jesus being killed has always seemed to me like a comment on the inevitability of human sin and betrayal.

Don't call Judas the hero of the story. If Judas did not betray Jesus, that would mean Jesus didn't have to save us from sin. It would mean that we were perfect already.
 
Birdjaguar said:
Gold or silver was not the point. Dida's point, which you ignored, is that Jesus needed to be killed to fulfill his mission.
Of course I ignored his point. He is accusing the Bible writers of not getting the facts straight. Yet, to make his points, he is not getting his facts straight. I'm not responding to a point that isn't properly stated in the first place.
Birdjaguar said:
Judas is the actual hero of the story; the go to guy who made it all happen just as god willed.
Hardly. If Judas is the hero, why is this line in the Bible?

(Jesus praying)
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."


This is speaking of Judas. If Judas was the true hero, why would he be doomed to perdition? No, the hero in the gospels in Jesus Christ! Judas cannot save anybody. Which brings us back to this...

Birdjaguar said:
...Jesus needed to be killed to fulfill his mission.

No, Jesus didn't need anything. He wanted to die for us. He said so.

Mark 10:45
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
 
Well, I read the gospels years ago, and I forget whether Juda got paid in gold or silver, so what, what is the big deal here? Silver or gold, it was money that he got paid in. Anyways, I am but a human, my memory, though excellent, is not perfect. The bible, however, is a divine book, its content holy to many, it is said that it is without error and perfect. It is only natural that the bible would have to be held to a higher standard than my mere memory. If I were writing a book, I would double check whether it was gold or silver.
What Quasar1011 hoped for was that by magnifying this little mistake of mine, he would shift the discussion away from the illogicality of the bible.
It made no sense for Juda to betray Jesus, he has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, except 30 silver pieces.
 
Who cares if Judas did something stupid and irrational? Aren't you stupid and irrational a large amount of the time? Isn't everyone?
 
Quasar1011 said:
Hardly. If Judas is the hero, why is this line in the Bible?
(Jesus praying)
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

This is speaking of Judas. If Judas was the true hero, why would he be doomed to perdition? No, the hero in the gospels in Jesus Christ! Judas cannot save anybody.
Judas is a hero because he sacrificed himself to hell so jesus could fulfill his destiny to save humankind. Pretty heroic sacrifice to me. If judas' decision to betray jesus was not his own, that raises other questions.
Which brings us back to this...No, Jesus didn't need anything. He wanted to die for us. He said so.
Mark 10:45
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
I'm sorry, but jesus did need to be killed. What he wanted is not releant. If he wasn't killed he couldnt have been resurrected. He served mankind through his death. Jesus was destined to die if gods wil was to be fulfilled. God's plan as stated by Daniel was that jesus needed to die. Judas was the implement of that event.
 
cgannon64 said:
Who cares if Judas did something stupid and irrational? Aren't you stupid and irrational a large amount of the time? Isn't everyone?
Humans are and I am human. Judas is the easy mark in all this and the bible points to him as the evil culprit who condemed jesus to death through betrayal. whether it was judas or another, jesus was destined to die and he had no way out of it. God's plan called for blood. Somebody had to be the one to turn events against jesus and make sure he was killed.
 
Dida said:
Well, I read the gospels years ago, and I forget whether Juda got paid in gold or silver, so what, what is the big deal here?
What the big deal is, is that you have misled us. You haven't read the gospels in how long? Years? And you expect us to engage in real dialogue with you over this?
Dida said:
What Quasar1011 hoped for was that by magnifying this little mistake of mine, he would shift the discussion away from the illogicality of the bible.
It made no sense for Juda to betray Jesus, he has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, except 30 silver pieces.
Well, I notice you didn't say anything about my other points. What of Judas dying, then falling down the ravine and his body splitting open? Quite possible, isn't it? Of course it made no sense for Judas to betray Jesus. But, as another poster pointed out, things are not always as they appear:

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

What does make sense, is that the arch-enemy of Jesus, namely Satan, would try to get into Jesus' inner circle. He did this by possessing one of the 12 disciples.

Even Peter denied knowing Jesus. At another point, we read this:

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

This indicates that Satan was influencing the thoughts of even Peter. If you try to invoke logic in the Bible, while ignoring the supernatural world, you will come up short.

:jesus: > :satan:
 
Birdjaguar said:
jesus was destined to die and he had no way out of it. God's plan called for blood.

Jesus was destined to die because we are sinful. Don't blame God. If God's plan called for blood, it was only because he knew we would take it.

Somebody had to be the one to turn events against jesus and make sure he was killed.

Which wouldn't make the crime any less despicable.
 
Birdjaguar said:
I'm sorry, but jesus did need to be killed. What he wanted is not releant. If he wasn't killed he couldnt have been resurrected. He served mankind through his death. Jesus was destined to die if gods wil was to be fulfilled.
Though we may quibble over "wanted" vs. "needed" to die, I feel it is an important distinction. To clarify, we must remember that God already exists in the future.

God, being Sovereign, doesn't need anything. He wanted to create the world, but He didn't have to do it. Once the world fell into sin, God wanted to redeem it, but He didn't have to. Actually, God knew the world would reject Him, and fall into sin. This is why Jesus came voluntarily. Even before the creation of the world, God knew that our free will would mean the likeliness of mankind becoming fallen. Once fallen, only one man could redeem another. But, no perfect man could be found to redeem another! Who could God send?

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God chose Jesus to do this task. The Old Testament Book of Ruth sets up the concept of a kinsman-redeemer. Jesus became the kinsman-redeemer for mankind, when He- God- became a man, and died for us!

Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

If the sacrifice was accomplished before the foundation of the world (God's view of time, not ours), God didn't need to do it. But, He wanted to. I for one am thankful He did! :)
 
Judas is a hero because he sacrificed himself to hell so jesus could fulfill his destiny to save humankind. Pretty heroic sacrifice to me. If judas' decision to betray jesus was not his own, that raises other questions.
I find it unfair to single out Judas for this distinction, how about Satan? God does influence events to go along with his plans, knowing God as an Angel does, Satan propably knows God's modus operandi best. Seriously does anyone believe any intelligent being would contest with an allpowerful being? I don't think so! it then begs the question? What in hell is satan doing what he is doing!
 
Shaihulud said:
I find it unfair to single out Judas for this distinction, how about Satan? God does influence events to go along with his plans, knowing God as an Angel does, Satan propably knows God's modus operandi best. Seriously does anyone believe any intelligent being would contest with an allpowerful being? I don't think so! it then begs the question? What in hell is satan doing what he is doing!

Have you ever seen someone who's totally full of themselves? Magnify that by the thought of being God's number 1 creation in terms of beauty and talent. God gave him a great name, Lucifer, which means "bearer of light." Only perhaps Michael or Gabriel were his equal. God says he is blinded by his own deception.
 
Shaihulud said:
I find it unfair to single out Judas for this distinction, how about Satan? God does influence events to go along with his plans, knowing God as an Angel does, Satan propably knows God's modus operandi best. Seriously does anyone believe any intelligent being would contest with an allpowerful being? I don't think so! it then begs the question? What in hell is satan doing what he is doing!
You can blame satan instead, but why would satan influence judas if all it did was to help jesus die and be resurrected? Or was satan manipulated by god? Somebody is pulliing the strings to make sure jesus dies.
 
Shaihulud said:
I find it unfair to single out Judas for this distinction, how about Satan? God does influence events to go along with his plans, knowing God as an Angel does, Satan propably knows God's modus operandi best. Seriously does anyone believe any intelligent being would contest with an allpowerful being? I don't think so! it then begs the question? What in hell is satan doing what he is doing!

I have always wanted to ask the Satan question as well. He was a powerful angel, and very close to god. He is at least smart enough to know god is all powerful and can destroy his sorry @$$ by moving one finger. Some men turn away from god because they have doubt whether god exist, or the extend of his power, but Lucifer certainly knows god well enough to have answered both question.
Now, why would he turn against god, why would he wage a war in which he can only lose? Maybe god created him to be evil, as a way to add more spicy to the world. Just a thought.
 
Dida said:
Now, why would he turn against god, why would he wage a war in which he can only lose? Maybe god created him to be evil, as a way to add more spicy to the world. Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure it was to test mankind.
 
you have to be perfect to be in heaven(not to get there but when your there) mr.Devil and all his friends werent exactly perfect. They layed(think about it) with the women of earth and some other bad stuff and were kicked from the castle in the sky. Thats why hes even there in the first place.


and Dida,answer me this, why do you hate(yes, you hate, your either with jesus or against him) christianity?
 
Dida said:
There is nothing else about the man's life that is worth recording?

cgannon64 said:

Actually there are several other Gospels and texts that do detail other events in the life of Jesus they were just left out of the Bible for one reason or another. You can actually make a good argument that the current "New Testament" is really just the "politically correct" version.

If you're interested take a look through the documents on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
 
I don't know what's more frustrating: the ignorance of the original poster, or the ignorance of some of the people defending Christianity.

Dida said:
Jesus lived to his 30's, and yet four books about his life only recorded a handful of identical events? There is nothing else about the man's life that is worth recording?

Jesus didn't begin his ministry until he was 30. He was crucified at 33: this gives a 3 year window. The writers of the Bible assumed, correctly, that people didn't need to read about the day to day life of a Galilean carpenter.

Dida said:
- The Gospels gave 2 different family trees of Jesus. Mathew traced him back to Abraham, while Luke traced him back to Adams. The explanation is that Luke was targeted at general audience, and has to trace Jesus back to the ancestor of all man, to show his universal appeal. So they can just make up stuff to suit their propaganda needs?

It's the same family tree, Luke just goes back farther. Adam being the source of all people, including Abraham, I would think that this would be obvious enough.

Dida said:
- Countless other inconsistencies, such as giving 2 accounts of how Juda died, one said he hang himself, another, he fell on his belly and died.

All accounts say that he hung himself, or attempted to. Some relate that his body fell from the rope, leading to the whole disembowelment thing. The other accounts don't state whether he fell off the rope or not. No contradiction.

Dida said:
- Jesus claimed that he has been sent to die for the sin of others, and from the Gospels it appeared that he knew before hand about his inevitable death in Jerusalem. But he appeared to be really tense, he asked his pupils to buy knife; he prayed right before he got arrested, and was trembling and sweating. Well, that doesn't look very godly to me, and it doesn't look like a behavior of a man who knows and controls everything.

He knew that he was about to go through a horrible ordeal of torture, humiliation, and death. Would you be calm?

Dida said:
-About Jesus praying, who the hell does he pray to? I thought he is god. He is at least equal with his so call 'father'. It made no sense for him to pray.

You don't understand the concept of the Trinity. Jesus cannot be equal to his father because his father created him. God is three separate aspects of the supreme being. The son is separate from the father, who is the head of the trinity. Therefore, the son, who is said to sit at "the right hand of the Father" (obviously implying both separateness and the supremacy of the father) prays to the head, who is the father.

Dida said:
- Jesus gave strikingly different opinion in Mathews and Luke, such as in Methew, he told his pupils not to go into the town of Gentiles or Samaritans, but only to the house of Isareal. In Luke, he told his pupils specifically to go to everyone including Gentiles and Samaritans, Jesus even talked to a Samaritan woman and cured her himself. Clearly, Mathew was targeting Jewish audience, while Luke has a wider general audience. Meaning, the authors of the Gospels made up stuff to suit their own needs. Jesus could not possible hold two opposing views.

Actually, if you'll pay attention, he says the same thing in all places: Go first to the Jews, and if/when they reject you, take it out to the Gentiles. Take another look, it's all there.

Dida said:
- Jesus was not well-received in his hometown, even his family members, his mother, brothers didn't believe him and thinks he is crazy. Why? Because people who is closest to him knows him best, and they obviously observed nothing special about Jesus, and were wondering why everyone think he is so great.

It's stated quite clearly that he was not recieved well in his hometown (as no prophets ever were) because he lived a relatively normal life until age 30, when he began his ministry. His ministry was mostly conducted outside of his hometown, and so when he returned, the people of his town, who had yet to see any of his miracles, asked why he was so special. They had not seen his ministry. Jesus addresses this very fact with a clear explanation in more than one of the gospels.

Dida said:
- The bible suggested that the Roman governor didn't want to kill Jesus, it was the priests who forced it upon him. Well, back in the days of the Romans, I don't see how a group of priests can force a decision upon a governor. This was done, obviously, after christianity saw the need to convert the romans and started shifting blame to the Jews.

Pontius Pilate was in trouble politically, and Caesar had actually made it clear that if there were one more major uprising under his jurisdiction, he would lose his job and probably his head. Pilate's motivations were more political than anything else. If you'll pay attention, the Jewish priests implied (decietfully) that by claiming to be King of the Jews, Jesus was trying to subvert Roman authority. This opened up the possibility that, if Pilate spared Jesus, not only would the Jews revolt, but Pilate would be charged with failing to defend Caesar and his authority.

I could repudiate every single point you made if I wanted to sit down with a copy of the Bible and point out all of your mistakes. You can criticise things if you want, but first I'd recommend more than one thorough reading, as well as some outside scholarship. Otherwise, you risk looking like an ignoramus with a big mouth and an even bigger agenda, as you have here.
 
Dida said:
I do not deny that I dislike christianity as a religion. But 'hate' is a strong word and should not be used lightly.
I dislike Bush. Really really much, and though I have started threads that criticised him, and though I have engaged in countless discussions with his suporters here, it all seems like nothing compared to your battle against Christianity. If hate is too strong a word, dislike is too weak.

Dida said:
I know that you are pissed by the fact that I exposed some not so pleasant aspects of your religion
Which part of the whole "As long as it's true, bring it out in the open. We need to get those skeletons out of the closet" didn't you understand?
Christianity cannot survive unless it welcomes the truth, always, even when the truth is nasty.
What I, as a historian, get pissed over is when you alter the truth in your biased little world.

I have had numerous discussion with Zulu on this board when he criticise Bush. Not because of his motive or message, but because I believe he is biased. The truth alone can severely harm Bush. No need to go further than that.
 
I'm trying to make sense of this thread... is it another 'there are factual problems with the bible and therefore it is a lie type issue' - are there actually questions that are being asked or is it just setting up a thread for flaming Christianity?

For what its worth, I do recognise differences in the gospels.

I also recognise the gospels for what they are - literary theological reflections on the life of a figure that writers considered important. They are not historical accounts by our moderns standards. Rather, they are carefully considered interpretations on the existence of Christ.

Trying to pick out differences between the texts is useful for trying to wrok out how the different authors saw Jesus, not for claiming that they are all lying. The gospel authors were people just as much as entitled to their opinion as we are. Their opinions have lasted for two thousand years, so something they wrote down must have been worth saying...

So, does anyone have something worth saying of their own that might make this thread potentially constructive, rather than just becoming another flame war between athiests and fundamentalists?

I personally feel that the differences between accounts in the gospels are quite fascinating and enlightening, and are wondering if anyone else is interested in civilizaed discussion?
 
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