Thoughts on Chasqui Scout?

Well, it appears some RBCivers will start a SG called "The Incans Rise again", so you could check it when it starts in the SG forum. The thing is, they will probably play too well to actually see the weakness of this unit. But oh well, we'll see what they think of it then...

While the pre-game setup discussion is at:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1068362967

It should hit the succession game forum (and in a much cleaner form) tonight :hammer:

We're planning it a demigod lvl, though a key thing we're hoping to get from the game is whether agricultural is too powerful or not -- the expansionist aspect has taken a backseat in discussion so far, but I'm glad to run into this thread to get a better handle on the difference the 20shields makes.

BTW, the civ3 main site gives background info for the new Incan tribe which includes:
To rule such a vast realm, the Sapa-Inca also needed constant information about the status of the far-flung reaches of the kingdom. To provide this information, the Inca formed the Chasqui Scout system. Chasquis delivered messages across the empire, relaying (by memory) important information from point to point... The Chasqui scout system was the Incan equivalent to the Pony Express. [/QUTOE]

So unlike Jagged Warriors (which were trained elite Aztec fighters) the Chasqui were information bearers, not warriors at all. The 1.1 att.def is clearly due to BreakAway's desire to have ALL UU's capable of triggering a Golden age. With Jaggies now costing 15, a unit with the same ability but ignore hill/mtn definitely belongs at 20 shields. And at this price, most players will use them as hardy scouts, not as throw-away warriors.
I imagine that foreign civs will allow the Chasqui scouts to stay in their territory without getting the second 'boot' warning -- combined with two moves this gives some fun possibilities for whacking settlers or capturing workers.

Yes, expensive scouts will make them distinctly different from any other Expansionist civ, but the early and lasting boost of agricultural (in addition to 1.1 att.def) should compensate sufficiently for this. We won't know for sure til the game is underway, but with the new delays on map and contact trading, the ignore hill/mtn may be significant on early-earth pangaea maps.

Charis
 
Actually, it's not fair to do a direct comparison of UU's when the main interest is (or should be) balance. It's fairly common to tone down excellent civ traits with relatively weaker UU's, e.g. France, America.

I tend to agree that 33% more cost (or 5 shields) isn't worth the movement bonus for a 2-move unit, although on some maps it would be.

The Jaggies were toned down from 10 to 15 shields because the combination with military trait was too powerful for the cost. They're doing the same here, increasing the cost because the synergy of trait and bonus demands a higher cost. In my mind, this is why they also lower Gallic Sword cost to 40. If they kept the Celts Militaristic, I'm in the camp that 50 was the right cost. Lowering the cost to 40 helps the AI quite a bit, and taking out the combo of this powerful a unit with Militaristic is what made it a balanced change. Same reason two best ancient attackers (Immortals and Mounted Warriors) are both with non-militaristic civs.

So if you want to compare Jagged Warrior cost with Chasqui scout cost, the traits must come into the picture.

Aztecs are militaristic and (now) agricultural
Incans are expansionist and agricultural

Conveniently, they're both agricultural. Given a desire to have two 1.1.2 units, they chose to have a lower cost unit for the mil civ and a extra movement bonus for the expansionist civ. Seems a good choice in this light. The point is, that the Aztecs are truly *unique* among all military tribes because of their UU, and the Incans are truly *unique* among all expansionists becuase of their UU. One did not do very well with Aztecs by playing a 'normal' game -- the large majority of players would either whine that the GA was too early and never make any use of the Jaggie, or they would play it poorly then give up on the Aztecs when they got crushed. But in the hands of good players, the Green Machine was an awesome force (witness Sirp's Open SG).

If I wanted to make a prediction by analogy, we'll find that most players will either play a 'normal' expansionist opening treating the Chasqui as scouts (but having only half as much of them), or will disdain the unit and never benefit from them, and it will be an unapreciated civ. Finding out "solid" ways to make good use of the Chasqui isn't as obvious as the Jaggie rush, but I'm betting that good players will make very good use of them.

--- more thoughts in EDIT
Let's consider more the combination of agricultural and expansionist together, and what implications it has for the Incan opening.

With the extra food bonus for a river capital, there's a new option on the table. Those looking to focus on the agricultural trait of the Incans will go high food, get an extra worker or so early, and get more cities and bigger cities faster. Compared to a non-agri civ, they can probably get to a point of having one extra scout-producing city earlier, and hope that the terrain bonus will let their scouts catch up to where a non-agri expansionist would be.

But with that extra food bonus, the old-school expansionist who wants to get several/many scouts out ASAP has a new option too -- he can choose a forest instead of a grassland and have the same food supply that a non-agri city has. This means 2 extra shields per turn compared to a 'standard' expansionist civ. For a low-shield city this would be 3 vs 1 shield, triple production vs double cost for a big win. More typically, this means 4 shields vs 2 shields, double production exactly balancing double cost for the same food supply. If you have a better starting location, it might be a forest vs a bonus grassland, 1f2s vs 2f1s. Then it's an output of 4 vs 3 or 3 vs 2 shields for the same food supply. There's the 33% price increase over jaggies right there.

Perhaps, depending on the map, a player would go max shield and crank out a handful of pricey Chasqui scouts without getting way behind in food, then switch over to maximum food mode at a decreased scout production rate -- so there's a wide in-between range of options as well. So don't give up on the Chasqui yet.
----

:p
Charis
 
I have an intersting idea about Inca Scout.

What about adding defensive first stike ability to them (0 range bombardment)?

The reasoning behind this would be that Inca Scouts are excellent battle scouts, which makes them capable of making deadly ambushes (first strike).

Makes them slightly more unque compared to Jaguar Warriors (and to War Chariots and Impy Warrios too).
 
AFAIK, defensive first strike only kicks in if there is more than one unit in the tile. This is not how I use scouts.
 
What about giving it an extra move? Would this be too unbalancing?
 
Probably. As it is it cruises through the mountainous terrain. This advantage is not to be discounted in a scout.
 
Originally posted by kryszcztov


That's the main point, period. I'd give them both the 1-attack point and the ATAG ability, because it would be too feeble otherwise. In the new review at PCIGN, they clearly say that the Agr/Exp combo is a powerful one, that the Agr trait enhances the short-timed Exp trait ; well, they forget to say that, in the Epic game, the Incans come with those traits, and that the Chasqui scout destroys the nice harmony born through this combo. :( I don't think the Incans are a powerful civ now, at least in SP. In MP it's another story, though I'm not sure of that. With so many changes here and there, I hope the Chasqui scout will still be of some help... :rolleyes: But I highly doubt that.

ATAG sounds like the best suggestion I have read so far if any change was to be made. As to Expansionist, it isn’t short lived provided you know how to take advantage of it.

Originally posted by Charis


While the pre-game setup discussion is at:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1068362967

It should hit the succession game forum (and in a much cleaner form) tonight :hammer:

We're planning it a demigod lvl, though a key thing we're hoping to get from the game is whether agricultural is too powerful or not -- the expansionist aspect has taken a backseat in discussion so far, but I'm glad to run into this thread to get a better handle on the difference the 20shields makes.

BTW, the civ3 main site gives background info for the new Incan tribe which includes:
To rule such a vast realm, the Sapa-Inca also needed constant information about the status of the far-flung reaches of the kingdom. To provide this information, the Inca formed the Chasqui Scout system. Chasquis delivered messages across the empire, relaying (by memory) important information from point to point... The Chasqui scout system was the Incan equivalent to the Pony Express. [/QUTOE]

So unlike Jagged Warriors (which were trained elite Aztec fighters) the Chasqui were information bearers, not warriors at all. The 1.1 att.def is clearly due to BreakAway's desire to have ALL UU's capable of triggering a Golden age. With Jaggies now costing 15, a unit with the same ability but ignore hill/mtn definitely belongs at 20 shields. And at this price, most players will use them as hardy scouts, not as throw-away warriors.
I imagine that foreign civs will allow the Chasqui scouts to stay in their territory without getting the second 'boot' warning -- combined with two moves this gives some fun possibilities for whacking settlers or capturing workers.

Yes, expensive scouts will make them distinctly different from any other Expansionist civ, but the early and lasting boost of agricultural (in addition to 1.1 att.def) should compensate sufficiently for this. We won't know for sure til the game is underway, but with the new delays on map and contact trading, the ignore hill/mtn may be significant on early-earth pangaea maps.

Charis


If I wanted to make a prediction by analogy, we'll find that most players will either play a 'normal' expansionist opening treating the Chasqui as scouts (but having only half as much of them), or will disdain the unit and never benefit from them, and it will be an unapreciated civ. Finding out "solid" ways to make good use of the Chasqui isn't as obvious as the Jaggie rush, but I'm betting that good players will make very good use of them.

--- more thoughts in EDIT
Let's consider more the combination of agricultural and expansionist together, and what implications it has for the Incan opening.

With the extra food bonus for a river capital, there's a new option on the table. Those looking to focus on the agricultural trait of the Incans will go high food, get an extra worker or so early, and get more cities and bigger cities faster. Compared to a non-agri civ, they can probably get to a point of having one extra scout-producing city earlier, and hope that the terrain bonus will let their scouts catch up to where a non-agri expansionist would be.

But with that extra food bonus, the old-school expansionist who wants to get several/many scouts out ASAP has a new option too -- he can choose a forest instead of a grassland and have the same food supply that a non-agri city has. This means 2 extra shields per turn compared to a 'standard' expansionist civ. For a low-shield city this would be 3 vs 1 shield, triple production vs double cost for a big win. More typically, this means 4 shields vs 2 shields, double production exactly balancing double cost for the same food supply. If you have a better starting location, it might be a forest vs a bonus grassland, 1f2s vs 2f1s. Then it's an output of 4 vs 3 or 3 vs 2 shields for the same food supply. There's the 33% price increase over jaggies right there.

Perhaps, depending on the map, a player would go max shield and crank out a handful of pricey Chasqui scouts without getting way behind in food, then switch over to maximum food mode at a decreased scout production rate -- so there's a wide in-between range of options as well. So don't give up on the Chasqui yet.
----


Charis

I agree. In my SP testing, I usually go for about half as many Chasqui Scouts as regular Scouts, and was able to stay in the Goody Hut race without any significant loss in popping Huts. This was true even when I chose to play against only Expansionist civs on Pangaea maps. I was also able to stay Hut Hunting after Barbarians started showing up and automatically killing my regular Scouts. They could also be used for MP duty. I suspect that some will write off the Chasqui as do the Conquistador, which when used correctly can be a great UU in both SP and MP.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
I have an intersting idea about Inca Scout.

What about adding defensive first stike ability to them (0 range bombardment)?

The reasoning behind this would be that Inca Scouts are excellent battle scouts, which makes them capable of making deadly ambushes (first strike).

Makes them slightly more unque compared to Jaguar Warriors (and to War Chariots and Impy Warrios too).

Interesting concept. Adding this or Stealth Attack may not be a bad alternative, and worth testing out.


Originally posted by warpstorm
Probably. As it is it cruises through the mountainous terrain. This advantage is not to be discounted in a scout.

Strange that you support making it ATAR, which gives it an additional move, and worse a guaranteed speed 3 over all terrain. I have extensively tested both ATAR and non ATAR and found that ATAR is too big an Exploit in both SP and MP. I haven’t tried ATAG yet, but it would appear to be less of a major advantage than ATAR. Moving it to Attack 0 is going to be a turnoff for a lot more people than are going to be supportive. People complain about several of the other UU’s over similar GA related issues.
 
i think the chasqui scout looks fine the way it is... but then again i don't have c3c yet so maybe i can't decide. has anoyone actually tried it yet??
 
Originally posted by kring
Strange that you support making it ATAR, which gives it an additional move, and worse a guaranteed speed 3 over all terrain. I have extensively tested both ATAR and non ATAR and found that ATAR is too big an Exploit in both SP and MP. I haven’t tried ATAG yet, but it would appear to be less of a major advantage than ATAR.

I supported a 0/0/1 ATAR, not one with attack or defense. But as I play more with the Chasui as is, I'm liking it more.
 
Originally posted by Charis
Let's consider more the combination of agricultural and expansionist together, and what implications it has for the Incan opening.

With the extra food bonus for a river capital, there's a new option on the table. Those looking to focus on the agricultural trait of the Incans will go high food, get an extra worker or so early, and get more cities and bigger cities faster. Compared to a non-agri civ, they can probably get to a point of having one extra scout-producing city earlier, and hope that the terrain bonus will let their scouts catch up to where a non-agri expansionist would be.

I still have a feeling when I get the game I will just get rid of the Chasqui and allow normal scouts.

The whole idea the way I see it is not to have an advantage cancelled out by a unit. Its like saying "oh since we gave you a 5 shield bonus in your cities we're going to make everything you produce cost 5 more shields" When I saw agricultural I thought "expand fast" It may still be faster than another combo such as EXP/IND but still slower than my mental concept of what AGR/EXP should be.

If the chasqui were made better for exploring and the combat ability were taken away I would find them much appealing.

Sorry if this sounds like whining but it just looks a little disapointing.
 
Do what I plan to do. Make the Chasqui a scout (0.0.3 Mountains and Hills as Grassland) and give every civ a second unique unit (I'm thinking of giving the Inca some kind of Slinger, maybe 3.1.1)
 
Originally posted by Elek


I still have a feeling when I get the game I will just get rid of the Chasqui and allow normal scouts.


That's one thing that i don't like about Modding, before people even try the game they want to change it. Go ahead and give up on the Chasqui, then when we play the Inca's on GOTM it will be even more the advantage to people who actually give things a chance.
 
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