Thoughts on Chasqui Scout?

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

This debatte is definetely premature. Wait until we see the final product, and then let's compare the UUs. Since many of them were announced to be rebalanced, there's little point in saying 'Compared to X, the Chasqui *blows*!'
Also, we need to see the final editor, if it now allows more options for shield costs, or if you now can flag a unit without both a Defence and Attack value for anything but explore (otherwise the AI won't use it at all), or...

And I would like to have a Scout that isn't always killed by Barbs. So far, my Scouts hardly make it more than 20 tiles before someone dressed in white appears out of the FoW and slays them.

 

[kryszcztov]

Then, if nothing else has changed, I repeat my chasqui scout suggestion :

chasqui scout
1/0/2
ignore movement penalty due to terrain
10 shields

It could trigger a golden age on the 1st attack (I hope barbs don't count, it would be too simple but too risky (too early)). But as any scout, it could be captured (and destroyed of course).

So basically, you win a 1-attack point (for easier agressiveness against barbs and foes, and for golden age (lame h'wacha)) and a "treat all terrain as grassland" ability.

 

[Bad Brett]

Originally posted by kryszcztov
Then, if nothing else has changed, I repeat my chasqui scout suggestion :

chasqui scout
1/0/2
ignore movement penalty due to terrain
10 shields

It could trigger a golden age on the 1st attack (I hope barbs don't count, it would be too simple but too risky (too early)). But as any scout, it could be captured (and destroyed of course).

So basically, you win a 1-attack point (for easier agressiveness against barbs and foes, and for golden age (lame h'wacha)) and a "treat all terrain as grassland" ability.

Two things:

Nr. 1: Everybody keeps talking about the Hwacha. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F-15 can't trigger a golden age either... of course, it so late in the game that you've probably gotten your golden age anyway...

Nr. 2: There really is no logic in giving a unit 1 attack point and zero defense points. I mean, every unit should have the ability to defend themselves, like in colonization... It makes much more sense with a unit that is capable to defend itself. I mean, if I can attack someone, I probably have some kind of weapon. I can't see why I would give up every time someone else takes the initiative. Ok, if it would be like workers, who are captured. But to have a weapon and let the enemy kill you without a fight seem silly.

 

[Arathorn]

1/0/2 ATAR is ridiculously overpowered for 10 shields. You'd let an initial scout move 6 squares???

Good options I've seen/invented that seem MUCH better than the Chasqui Scout as presented....

0/1/2 for 10 shields (chance to defend himself)
0/0/1 ATAR
1/1/2 for 20 shields, hills/mountains level and enslave -- maybe just enslave

The way it is now, I think we have a new clear winner (can't say for certain without having played any C3C) for worst UU.

Arathorn

 

[Zeekater]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F-15 can't trigger a golden age either... of course, it so late in the game that you've probably gotten your golden age anyway...

The F15 can trigger the golden age by winning an air-superiority mission IIRC

 

[Aggie]

At least the Chasqui scout can trigger a GA. So it's not the worst UU in my book. But I have to admit that my initial positive thoughts about it came from the misconception that it only costs 10 shields. Since it is twice as expensive and only useful in the early game, it indeed appears to be a bad UU. 20 shields is a lot with one or two cities.

 

[Elek]

Originally posted by Arathorn

0/1/2 for 10 shields (chance to defend himself)
0/0/1 ATAR

I'd be satisfied with either of those.

 

[kryszcztov]

@ Aggie : 20 shields, 20 shields, 20 shields... You should get a nuke at that price at this point of the game. Again, unless we're now able to build both the UU and the unit it replaces (I wish I had this idea a few months before), the Incans are asked to build expensive units : NOLO !!! (I think that means "I don't want")

@ Bad Brett : I know a 1/0 unit is somewhat weird, but so what ? It allows a Golden Age on YOUR decision, but it's not as good as a warrior (since it can be captured and destroyed), so you'd have to carefully move it, like any scout. With 2 movement points, you could attack a barb (or another warrior/archer), then fleeing from the area if the barb isn't killed ; oh I forgot to mention this Chasqui scout would retreat, yeah that's right.

@ Arathorn : If you were ing at me, read my stats again : treat all terrain as grasslands, not roads. So that's 2 tiles each turn, no more.

 

[Arathorn]

Mea culpa. I apparently can't read on Thursday mornings.

All terrains as grass.... Hmm... Now that I think I could live with. Guarantees two moves/turn, which does give a benefit against a normal scout -- maybe enough to justify doubling the price.

Arathorn

 

[USC]

If -- IF -- the mountains-as-roads benefit and the extra survivability make it as useful as two scouts, including with one built when the CS is half-built, then we have basically the concentration of two scouts into one unit, thus lowering your support costs, thus leaving you with more gold early on allowing you to buy techs a little earlier.

The "20 shields, dammit!!" argument IS pretty strong, though, I'll admit.

I believe the golden mean really WOULD be to allow the building of regular scouts. I don't recall any statements by Firaxis on this, but considering that AFAICR no other UU allows the alternative of building its normal equivalent, the game engine may not enable this.

Considering the massive changes to UU's upgradeability during the patching of vanilla Civ, Firaxis MAY change the unit in a patch if there are massive protests. However, the change would have to respect game engine limits, see above. Thus one of the other tweaks will probably be chosen... my vote would be for a nice special upgrade path (say to horsemen), better movement (say 3 points, ATAG or MAYBE ATAR), or 10 shields and 0 attack. My hunch is that the improving tweak should be weak, because the UU will be underpowered, but not as much as we fear.

USC

 

[fitchn]

Originally posted by USC
I believe the golden mean really WOULD be to allow the building of regular scouts. I don't recall any statements by Firaxis on this, but considering that AFAICR no other UU allows the alternative of building its normal equivalent, the game engine may not enable this.

The game engine could handle this fine... the engine knows no difference between a 'regular' unit and a 'unique' unit, let alone what unit the UU replaces. In the 'civilizations' tab in the editor for each civ is a list of all the units in the game; those selected can be built, and those not selected cannot be built. To enable both, simply select both! For that matter, you could give any (or all) civs access to any number of UUs; even all of them if you so desire!

 

[warpstorm]

Originally posted by robcheng

the ignore hill/mountain move cost isn't so great (just play with the keshiks a few times if you don't believe me). Now if it were ignore forest/jungle/marsh instead, THAT might be worth it...

Rob, I have to disagree with you on this. Unlike the Keshik (or even the BTM Keshik), a scout always heads for the highlands. It gives them a greater visibility range. This alone should be worth about 5 shields.

The forest/jungle/marsh while a very good combo doesn't make historical sense for the Incans.

 

[robcheng]

Originally posted by warpstorm


Rob, I have to disagree with you on this. Unlike the Keshik (or even the BTM Keshik), a scout always heads for the highlands. It gives them a greater visibility range. This alone should be worth about 5 shields.

The forest/jungle/marsh while a very good combo doesn't make historical sense for the Incans.

Yes, but most mountain ranges are not very wide (long, yes...but not wide) so it's easy to 'skim' the edge of the mountain range to move 2 tiles/turn and still get the advantage of the greater visibility. If you are in the middle of a thick patch of mountains, then I don't think you get the visibility benefit since IIRC you can't see over the next ridge.

You are right that f/j/m doesn't make historical sense but I'd still take it over h/m anyday of the week.

 

[Tacit_Exit]

@Krys: Problem with 1/0/* unitis that it can only be given the AI strategy 'explore' so the AI will never attack with it. BTW a 0 defense unit WON'T retreat. A 0/1/* also has this problem (only AI explore) but you wouldn't want the AI to use this defensively anyway, so it would work.

@Fitchn: To allow bulding of both Scout and Chasqui the latter would also need to be removed from the (probable) upgrade chain Scout - Chasqui - Explorer; just make Scout and Chasqui both upgrade to explorer directly, as well as selecting the Tribes allowed.

 

[USC]

Originally posted by fitchn

The game engine could handle this fine...

I stand corrected. Thanks!

 

[kryszcztov]

A 1/0/2 Chasqui scout MAY retreat if he attacks an x/y/1 unit and is redlined, like any other fast unit in the game. BTW, my proposal for the Chasqui scout can't be bad : it is superior to the standard scout in any point : same cost, same upgrade path, 1 attack point for killing feeble units (can retreat, so it's worth the risk after some exploration is done) and for Golden Age on your decision (unlike 0/1/2), and he treats all terrain as grassland (faster scout to enhance the expansionnist trait, unlike the current Chasqui scout). I'd make him available in 4000BC of course, like any other scout, and I'd allow him to be the bonus unit the Incans start with, unlike what has been said so far. You can argue it would be too much of an advantage, but keep that in mind : the Incans have a scout as their UU : they won't build so many of them (unlike riders, immortals or hoplites), and they'll become quickly obsolete... Civs with the Wheel and horses or with Bronze Working won't fear them a lot ; their only advantage would then be their ability to treat all terrain as grassland... rejecting them in deep forest/jungle/marsh and hills/mountains areas, like where the Incans lived.

What is wrong with the current Chasqui scout is that he is NOT superior to the standard scout in any point : 20 shields ! And BTW, I'd definitely go for 2 scouts than for 1 Chasqui scout... 2 scouts will explore a lot more than 1 Chasqui scout, unlike what has been said in a previous post. You want to pillage enemy improvements ? Mine could do the job.

The only thing I don't know is if the AI could understand my Chasqui scout... Well, I didn't write the AI program.

 

[USC]

Originally posted by robcheng


Yes, but most mountain ranges are not very wide (long, yes...but not wide) so it's easy to 'skim' the edge of the mountain range to move 2 tiles/turn and still get the advantage of the greater visibility.

I disagree, sire.

Mountain ranges tend to be buried in hills, so it's not generally easy to "skim" the edge of the mountain range. Hill ranges are better off, but even here, it's only if the range runs "non-diagonally" (NW/SW/NE/SE), and in that case, you are not getting as much from your exploration as you would if you could go two moves "diagonally." Also, hills don't let you see over any other 2-move terrain, which quite often limits their benefit in practice.

If you are in the middle of a thick patch of mountains, then I don't think you get the visibility benefit since IIRC you can't see over the next ridge.

True to some extent -- if there is a thick "strip" of mountains you're running, you'll need to run one edge of the "strip", and will only get extra visibility looking out of the strip, not into it.

USC

 

[Bad Brett]

I guess they are pretty good at escaping barbarians and stuff. I'm pretty sure the Keshik (even though I haven't tried it) could be really good if you play on higher difficulty levels, when you have to careful with every unit in your army,

 

[wotan321]

I didn't notice if this had been addressed in this thread yet, but I need somethings clarified.

1) Does the Chasqui scout capture barbarians?

2) What units are captured units turned into?

It sounds like the beta testers have done a lot of work to tweak this unit.

 

[Gogf]

1) Does the Chasqui scout capture barbarians?

No unit just captures barbarians (to the extent of my knowledge)

2) What units are captured units turned into?

That can be specified depending on what unit is doing the capturing (i.e. Barbaric Warmonger captures units that become "Slaves", while Civilized Soldier captures units that become "Workers").