Thoughts on civ7 combat and commanders

1. The commanders' Span of Control - the number of units they can handle - remains fixed from start of game to finish, except for one commander promotion (+2 units). This is one of the few things Humankind got right, folks, increasing the number of units in an 'army/fleet' as the game progressed. In Civ VII it would be even easier to implement since the Ages are so exclusive: Commanders could normally control 4 units in Antiquity, 6 in Exploration, 8 in Modern, with commander's influence extending 1 tile in Antiquity, 2 in Exploration, up to 3 in Modern - exact numbers subject to change based on What Works Best in playtesting.
Yeah, I really want this. It’s such a pain to get the +2 capacity promotion on commanders too.
The last two games I completed by total annihilation, I didn't touch that tree once with any of my Commanders. Once you have 4 or more active Commanders, the 2 extra capacity slots aren't as vital as they may seem, especially if you have the initiative promotion (which you should) which allows for all the maneuverability that you may need.
 
This is incorrect. The Order Commendation alone provides a +5 Combat Strength. If your unit is in a fortified District, the Bastion Tree is complete, and you chose Order as your commendation, your land unit will receive +12 combat strength defending. On the attacking end with the same commendation and the Assault Tree completed, your cavalry/infantry unit at full HP can attack with +13 combat strength. And combat strength isn't the only benefit a Commander can provide. The Initiative promotion is crucial to warring.
I did forget about the Commendations (it has been a while since I have played much). However, I want to point out the technicalities of these modifiers. For Bastion, to get +12 you need to be in built fortifications in one of your city districts. This is not versatile. Without the commendation, in the field, being attacked in the radius is just +2 and with the commendation that is +7. If you have built fortifications it is +5 w/o the commendation and +10 with. That commendation is certainly a big jump which for sure does alter the implementation of this throughout the game progression as you work toward the bottom of the trees. But there is a notable difference in Bastion between defending your own city vs. being on the battlefield and again this scales down to being a weaker benefit as the game progresses.

I am not sure how you get the +13 strength instead of +12 for assault plus things like first strike is also harder to account for and I currently don't want to do the math but it still serves your point. This one is more versatile to as it applies as it simply requires you be attacking, regardless of other circumstances.

Boris also brings up a good point at things like the +3 strength offered by techs and civic masteries. I have not calculated those things in yet, it would be interesting to look at those tallies. This does offer tech advantages However it is always the same fixed numbers of +3.



I do want to draw attention to the fact that my main point is that the scaling makes unit upgrades LESS effective due to that disparity as time goes on and none of this has really countered that. If power disparity slowly bleeds out of units through game progression, Carpet of Doom gameplay will be encouraged. I don't understand how it couldn't. The numbers may as well just stay 20>25>30 and I think the game would actually benefit it either more valuable at that ratio or not any different at all based on the point Sostratus suggests. As +3 is either a larger boost due to disparity or exactly the same boost as before so why even change the numbers?

I’m almost certain it uses the same system as civ6, where the difference between combat strength matters - not the ratio. 5 strength is a 1.25x modifier in civ6.
Perhaps it is my over familiarity with Civ 4 and below that has me not intuitively grasping the differences in these systems. Everyone seems to agree that this disparity is not an issue and that may be, but I do know that combat just feels like a predictable slap fight where you already know how one unit will impact another unit with predetermined damage and that seems to hardly make much difference from tier upgrades in my experience. Every once in a while it unexpectedly catches me off guard and I see a lower amount of damage previewed than I expected. (This could be due to that +3 Boris brought up)

I am not claiming that Commanders don't make a difference on the battlefield but I do know that I have fought off commander armies with just numbers and then killed the commander as range is so powerful in this game. Melee combat is so predictable and and never feels like any real 'edge' has been attained for me. I feel like combat, especially in the modern age, should have some game changers come into play. Not a slow build up of +2s and +3s but actual military advancements that change warfare in a new way. Not "we invented seige weapons again!" as that is what it has felt like for me.
 
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I am not sure how you get the +13 strength instead of +12 for assault
Ah, slight error on my part I meant cavalry/siege +13 combat strength. For some reason, that tree gives +2 to infantry and ranged and +3 for cavalry and siege. Hmm, I wonder how this applies to Keshigs who are technically ranged and cavalry units.
 
I find I am still mostly moving units by hand. Old habits die hard. But when you are conquering multiple cities, they tend to be spaced relatively close together, it doesn't make sense to pack them up just to unpack them 3 tiles down the road.

How often are you guys using the reinforce button? I find I rarely use it, mostly because I rarely lose units. And if I need more units, I buy them in the nearest town on the front lines. It's a nice feature, I am glad we have it, but it isn't that useful.

Commander packing ability, for me at least, is mostly only useful moving long distances.

Perhaps civ 8 will move away from the tactical style warfare, but they seem pretty committed to this way in my opinion, so I am not holding my breath. And don't get me wrong, it can be fun at times, but that's mixed in with a bunch of tedium as well. Especially if you want to conquer the world, it's very tedious (to be fair, so was civ 6, civ 5 I never tried to). I find myself stopping once I reached enough points for military legacy path. That's not a good sign for the combat mechanics.
 
The last two games I completed by total annihilation, I didn't touch that tree once with any of my Commanders. Once you have 4 or more active Commanders, the 2 extra capacity slots aren't as vital as they may seem, especially if you have the initiative promotion (which you should) which allows for all the maneuverability that you may need.
I have also rarely used the 'extra span of control' for my Leaders, but there have also been times in late Exploration and especially in Modern Ages when I really missed it.

My answer was to buy extra Leaders with the copious Gold income available in Modern Age, but having a 'built-in' extra span of control in the later Ages makes more sense: historically, the size of the armies and the area they covered increased massively, especially in the Modern Age when motorization and radio/telephone communications increased the Commander's potential range of effect from a mile or three to hundreds of miles.

I am not claiming that Commanders don't make a difference on the battlefield but I do know that I have fought off commander armies with just numbers and then killed the commander as range is so powerful in this game. Melee combat is so predictable and and never feels like any real 'edge' has been attained for me. I feel like combat, especially in the modern age, should have some game changers come into play. Not a slow build up of +2s and +3s but actual military advancements that change warfare in a new way. Not "we invented seige weapons again!" as that is what it has felt like for me.
This is an argument going all the way back to the beginnings of 1UPT and the ranged - infantry/melee - cavalry distinction in units. The game has never gotten the relationship among the units right, or the distinctions that made each of them powerful only in certain situations.

Ranged is overpowered because for most of history in reality an opponent could move through the area you could hit with a ranged weapon in a few seconds even on foot and so your archers/slingers/javelin-throwers got off a few shots and then were fighting for their lives - or running for home if they were smart. Ranged was only a battle-winner if the enemy could not get at the ranged units, either because they were on horseback and rode away, or were behind melee units that protected them, or on top of stone walls that protected them even better.

Cavalry is overpowered in Civ VII because they have been given all the same attributes of infantry - ability to entrench, no malus for being in terrain like jungles, swamps, or rough hills that negate their mobility advantages - and also get higher base combat values than the infantry. And, of course, the maintenance and cost of raising cavalry units is grossly under-represented in the game, so that raising a cavalry army in a jungle-based Civ only carries the 'malus' that you are not likely to have Horse Resources to buff them even further.

Infantry should be the basic jack-of-all-trades for most armies, but instead as a result of the misrepresentation of other unit types, they are there largely to provide targets for the archers or be run over by the chariots/cavalry. That totally warps the in-game combat compared to the reality it purports to represent.

The other side of the problem is that once most combat became ranged, with the advent of effective gunpowder weapons (the very end of the Exploration or beginning of Modern Age) all the old relationships changed.

Ranged became Very Long Ranged - artillery, which by 1900 was able to sit back miles away and flatten any unit it could reach. Even before the development of Indirect Fire, cannon had effective ranges far beyond the distance an opponent could traverse without getting pounded, and its fire could both reinforce any defense and support any attack as needed.

Infantry became dominant on the battlefield. For all the highly-publicized cavalry charges and battles between 1700 and 1900, against steady infantry with their muskets/rifles and later their machineguns/mortars/light artillery, cavalry was simply too big a target for their cost. WWI, with the battlefields swarming with automatic weapons and artillery, brought this home to even the most suicidally optimistic horseman, but the lessons had been there for over 100 years already.

'Cavalry' only got its Antiquarian Importance back when they got armor to go with their mobility. In game terms, that was NOT the 'landships' - all the landships represented in the game had top speeds of less than 10 kph - about as fast as an infantryman could jog, and nowhere near fast enough to take over cavalry's traditional roles of assault, pursuit, scouting or screening, that had to wait until the Medium Tank of the late 1930s with decent armor and carrying a cannon instead of machineguns only.

Point is that, AT LEAST by the start of the Modern Age combat factors and relationships of the various unit types need to change dramatically. This, after all, roughly represents the culmination of what has been called "The Military Revolution" - the rise of gunpowder and all its consequences both on and off the battlefield.
 
We're seeing games like Ara and Millennia move toward small stacks and auto-resolved combat. If SoD are off the table, then I hope the next Civ moves to this kind of model.

SoD is off the table. But I think small stacks would be great. I know critics argue that stacks remove interesting strategy or tactics because players will just smash stacks together but I think you can make combat meaningful.

For example:
1) You can make the composition of the stack matter to encourage combined arms.
2) You can give units interesting promotions that allow them to serve different roles in the stack. I love the civ4 unit promotions that allowed you to specialize units. You could make units better at attacking cities, others better in defense, others better in jungle or forest etc...
3) Terrain should matter, giving bonuses to different units based on if they are attacking or defending.
4) You can still have commander units that could boost your stack in different ways.
5) You can have mechanics like supply lines that affect the strength of a stack.
6) You can also have mechanics like morale where units who lose get demoralize and are more likely to retreat.
7) You can also have combat experience where units can level up to veteran or elite to fight better.
8) You could give the player buttons to attack or defend in different ways like a button to do a full frontal attack, outflank, defensive advance. hold your ground, etc... that would further affect combat based on the units in your stack and the enemy's stack. I think different stance or attack buttons would be key because you could create a situation where the same stack wins or loses depending on what attack button you pick and what defensive button the other player picks for their stack. So players who just mindlessly smash stacks together could end up losing when they would have won if they had payed more attention to strategy. This will make strategy matter even with stacks.
9) Lastly, there would still be the big picture strategy of creating your overall war plan, ie building your stacks, and where and when to attack.

All of these points would make combat strategic imo even with stacks. The important thing is that there needs to be a cap on total units and stacks you can support. Otherwise, you just get stacks of doom or carpets of doom.

Auto-resolve combat should be an option. not mandatory. I do think that civ players want strategy in their combat. And combat can be the most fun part of civ. So I don't think you want to take that way from players by having combat auto-resolved all the time.
 
I think a big problem with Civ 7 combat is the unit progression. Each age, your unit values go up but your actual strength bonus for upgrading goes down. If we just look at the "upgraded" basic infantry units:

Antiquity
20 > 25(+25%) > 30(+20%)
Exploration
35 > 40(+14.29%) > 45(+12.5%)
Modern
50 > 55(+10%) > 60(+9.09%)
This just isn't relevant - damage in Civ 7 is calculated based off of the absolute value of the difference between two combat strength values. The damage being at 55 combat strength vs the enemy's 50 is the same as being at 25 vs the enemy's 20.
 
This just isn't relevant - damage in Civ 7 is calculated based off of the absolute value of the difference between two combat strength values. The damage being at 55 combat strength vs the enemy's 50 is the same as being at 25 vs the enemy's 20.
This has already been explained to me, which I appreciate as it helps me understand the system better. Which then either still means the bonuses diminish or that the numbers really dont matter and they could just as easily reset everything back to 20>25>30 and nothing would change. My primary point I supported with irrelevant math, was more in the flavor of combat being dull because there are no more "gunpowder rushes" or "mace rushes" etc. A unit upgrade is only ever simply +5 which negligible considering the various ways you can simply overcome that small bonus. Unless the enemy troops outnumber you. (which means the +5 isn't really what is the threat but rather the overwhelming force: carpet of doom)

Despite me using those numbers to attempt to illustrate my understanding based on the old systems, my point is that unit upgrade technologies are not at all exciting in Civ 7. Upgrading your units doesn't ever really change the power landscape the way it did in previous iteration of Civ. Based on my understanding of this system we are literally having the same power landscape play out the same way 3 times in a row. I think it is this that primarily makes Civ 7 combat bland. Even if the AI knew how to fight.
 
This honestly confuses me. Total War is all about the tactical combat. The strategic layer is basically to give overarching structure and narrative to a series of tactical battles. And I say that as someone who has enjoyed the series and how it's structured.
The tactical layer has (always) been too easy to cheese. The world / campaign map is normally where the important decisions are made, imo.

I know folks that steadfastly oppose auto-resolve (in TW games) and never use it. But at the same time they don't say it's necessary. It's just the way they say it should be played (anecdotal, obviously). I'll admit, I haven't played regularly since Medieval 2, but my friend circles have kept up all the way through (including Warhammer and Three Kingdoms, depending on what you class as mainline entries or offshoots).
 
Interesting. I think I only had 2 commanders and like 20 units. It did not make a difference, probably because the AI is so bad at combat. Even my units without a commander nearby, still steamrolled the AI.

I sounds like you are not making enough commanders. By Modern I often have 5 or 6 of them, with enough space for my army. I actually have the problem that sometimes commanders bump into each other. But this gives huge benefits in terms of raw combat strengths and tactical options. If the AI was better at combat, you would never want to have units on their own. And even with the AI as bad as it is, fighting without a commander is something I want to avoid, since it leads to so much more losses.

Speed. Some commanders in history were notorious for the speed with which they could move their forces: Alexander regularly used heavy cavalry as a pursuit force, and caught opponents who didn't realize how fast he could move; Stonewall Jackson's "foot cavalry" - infantry that could out-maneuver enemy cavalry; Pliev's Cavalry-Mechanized Group, in which his horse cavalry outran mechanized and armored forces (1944). IF we are going to reform the Commander Promotions, I would add some more in regard to speed of movement. Remembering that such could also be included as Social Policies, Techs, Mementos, or Unique (Civ or Leader) bonuses to take advantage of the flexibility of the Civ VII system.
With the Maneuver tree maxes out and the +1 movement commendation, commanders and the army they command are much faster than combat focused commanders. Especially, the ignore terrain restrictions promotion will give a major speed advantage in difficult terrain. What you want can already be done. It is just, that raw combat strength is often more useful (and definitely easier to handler). One problem I have it the commendations is that Order is just too important against the Deity AI that you rarely can justify anything else.


I did forget about the Commendations (it has been a while since I have played much). However, I want to point out the technicalities of these modifiers. For Bastion, to get +12 you need to be in built fortifications in one of your city districts. This is not versatile. Without the commendation, in the field, being attacked in the radius is just +2 and with the commendation that is +7. If you have built fortifications it is +5 w/o the commendation and +10 with. That commendation is certainly a big jump which for sure does alter the implementation of this throughout the game progression as you work toward the bottom of the trees. But there is a notable difference in Bastion between defending your own city vs. being on the battlefield and again this scales down to being a weaker benefit as the game progresses.

Fortifications constructed the field count as well for most of the promotions (except for the one on the right side, which I never take). And with the left side, your units construct fortifications in one turn. So there is no reason to not be in fortifications when you expect being attacked. My first commander almost always goes down the bastion tree first, even for attacking, because it is so useful in minimizing casualties. And when I don't do that, I tend to regret it.

Also again: The bonuses do not scale with the total strength. It is the difference that matters and that does not change whether the unit has 20 or 40 combat strength (when the opponent has the same).

SoD is off the table. But I think small stacks would be great. I know critics argue that stacks remove interesting strategy or tactics because players will just smash stacks together but I think you can make combat meaningful.

For example:
1) You can make the composition of the stack matter to encourage combined arms.
2) You can give units interesting promotions that allow them to serve different roles in the stack. I love the civ4 unit promotions that allowed you to specialize units. You could make units better at attacking cities, others better in defense, others better in jungle or forest etc...
3) Terrain should matter, giving bonuses to different units based on if they are attacking or defending.
4) You can still have commander units that could boost your stack in different ways.
5) You can have mechanics like supply lines that affect the strength of a stack.
6) You can also have mechanics like morale where units who lose get demoralize and are more likely to retreat.
7) You can also have combat experience where units can level up to veteran or elite to fight better.
8) You could give the player buttons to attack or defend in different ways like a button to do a full frontal attack, outflank, defensive advance. hold your ground, etc... that would further affect combat based on the units in your stack and the enemy's stack. I think different stance or attack buttons would be key because you could create a situation where the same stack wins or loses depending on what attack button you pick and what defensive button the other player picks for their stack. So players who just mindlessly smash stacks together could end up losing when they would have won if they had payed more attention to strategy. This will make strategy matter even with stacks.
9) Lastly, there would still be the big picture strategy of creating your overall war plan, ie building your stacks, and where and when to attack.

All of these points would make combat strategic imo even with stacks. The important thing is that there needs to be a cap on total units and stacks you can support. Otherwise, you just get stacks of doom or carpets of doom.

Auto-resolve combat should be an option. not mandatory. I do think that civ players want strategy in their combat. And combat can be the most fun part of civ. So I don't think you want to take that way from players by having combat auto-resolved all the time.

In my opinion, limited stacking is a mistake. If limited stacks enter combat individually (CTP/Millenia), it is just 1 UPT with extra steps once you have figured out the stack composition meta. You might have a specialized stack, but that is not different to having a specialized unit. And if they enter combat together (Humankind/ARA), it is just stack of doom with extra steps. I vastly prefer the Civ 7 system over either of these.

Also, auto-resolve being an option will make me fight a tedious battle, because I might lose one unit less than the auto-resolve result. I have a strong dislike for that.
 
The tactical layer has (always) been too easy to cheese. The world / campaign map is normally where the important decisions are made, imo.

I know folks that steadfastly oppose auto-resolve (in TW games) and never use it. But at the same time they don't say it's necessary. It's just the way they say it should be played (anecdotal, obviously). I'll admit, I haven't played regularly since Medieval 2, but my friend circles have kept up all the way through (including Warhammer and Three Kingdoms, depending on what you class as mainline entries or offshoots).

Yes, this is why I don't really enjoy TW games that much. There is so much focus on the tactical battles and they take so long, but ultimately you win by only letting battles happen that the autoresolver would easily win. And then you go and fight the battle anyway, because one, you think you can do better and, and two, well it is TW.
 
Fortifications constructed the field count as well for most of the promotions (except for the one on the right side, which I never take).
I caught that one. ;)
Without the commendation, in the field, being attacked in the radius is just +2 and with the commendation that is +7. If you have built fortifications it is +5 w/o the commendation and +10 with.
Defilade (Left Side) - Offers +3 when unit is in fortifications in command radius
Steadfast (Top) - Offers +2 when defending in the command radius
Hold the Line (Right Side) - Offers +2 in a district in the command radius
Order (Commendation) - Offers +5 when in combat in the command radius

I bring this up because it takes a while to max out a Commander. When I run Bastion, I tend to only have a +2-5 strength bonus for a while and sometimes hit initiative because I need that guy to be able to push forward, or I switch to Bastion after using Logistics early on for the gold and 6 unit armies. I once had a game where somehow all my Commanders got Bulwark for free. That was cool. If I remember right, it may have been a quest.
 
I recommend trying Trung Trac for the full Commander experience.

Thanks. I tried a new game with Trung Trac, played the Antiquity Age, and it was pretty fun with army commanders. For my first commander, I took steadfast, initiate and mobility as my 3 free promotions. I felt like those promotions would give me a well rounded army commander. Hasheptut declared a surprise war against me and felt my wrath. I had 2 army commanders packed with spearman, a couple archers, one ballista and 2 elephant units. Fought an epic battle across the river and captured the Egyptian capital. Got one army commander up to 5 promotions and the first commendation. Got the other commander up to 3 promotions.
 
I would like to see a change to how the commendations are earned. I don't like having to go all the way down one tree to get them even if I don't need all those perks. Like maybe I don't have any siege units but I have to take that perk just to get to the bottom of the tree.

I would prefer a system where you unlock a commendation for every X number of perks you have selected from any tree. I would love for example to take just two perks in the tree that gets me more slots unlocked and then stop there without feeling like I have to go all the way down that tree now because I want the next commendation.
 
Sure, Assault on first (and third) Commander but I try to get Manuever on the 2nd Commander, along with the extra command zone size. That Commander also gets +1 Movement for his 2nd Commendation. The first two commanders stay together. The first offering CS bonus and the 2nd offering movement bonus.

My 4th always gets the +5% yields tree. He will war during Antiquities and sit in my capital during Exploration. If I have a 6th or 7th Commander they also get +5% yields.

Naval Commander goes down the Bombard tree to get Splash damage and will pick up Assault later because splash damage IS that much better.

2nd Naval Commander gets the +5% yields promotion to be used on my Capital during Modern era.

Side note; during Exploration Commanders are what I send to explore distant lands. They're ready to go with 1 Tech discovered and can have a settler put inside them.

2nd side note; If I'm going for a Domination Victory (not the same thing as a Modern Era Military Victory) then I dont bother with the +5% yields because that is mostly to boost my Modern era output and win faster.
 
The best Trung Trac Commander experience is to play Rome with her. The first Legatus can immediately place a new Settlement with the Trung Trac instant 3 promotions, so it can jump start your expansion dramatically. This is so good I am almost embarrassed to play Rome with Trung Trac because it seems as OP as anything in the game.
 
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