Thoughts on New Patch Strategies

[Deau]

no problem for the player, but let me rephrase my issue:
Is it normal that the AI civ only have 2 cities in 1000AD?

It depends on the difficulty level you play, but also on the randomized expansionist flavour that was given to the specific AI.

Ultimately, I have also noticed (on Deity at least) that those new early wars have been significantly refraining the expansion of the civ that was playing defensively. More hammers spent towards defense as opposed to settler, also potentially a few settlers killed/captured while moving to their settling location.

 

[KevinMiles90000]

no problem for the player, but let me rephrase my issue:
Is it normal that the AI civ only have 2 cities in 1000AD?

Sometimes the AI goes into turtle/wonder building mode, throws up the great wall and in content to sit on 2-3 cities the entire game.

 

[Pac-Dragon]

Wow, I'm loving the new AI. I've only started one game post-patch (Emperor level), but it was thrilling! While going for a NC start, planning a longsword (berzerker) rush, I got early rushed by seven warriors from a friendly Washington. He brought my capital down to about 5 hp, but I was able to barely hold him off by suiciding warriors & scouts brought in from the fields (who were already badly damaged from the swarms of barbarians). By the time I killed off his last unit, I was left with a single warrior at 1hp, got a white peace deal, and let our national hero limp home to rest.

OMG, it was great. It never felt right to have so many openings rely on ignoring defenses early in the game. I'm really happy the AI is willing to risk a rush, which will now force me to squeeze in a decent military presence into every opening. I was turning down a bunch of DoFs, as I usually do, but it now looks like early DoFs & units will be essential to survive the early game. And military CSs just jumped way up in value for me.

I've always enjoyed trying to strike a balance between science, military, culture, growth, etc. It's really nice to see military finally become important to the early game.

 

[Merri]

no problem for the player, but let me rephrase my issue:
Is it normal that the AI civ only have 2 cities in 1000AD?

In my current game I have AI Siam with only two cities at 1000AD and still room to expand. I guess they're doing just fine, pushing Wonders and being near top with SPs. In the meanwhile Chinese are pissing everyone off by expanding like wild rabbits, but they're making tons of gold and can afford being at war with all the other AIs almost all the time. Myself? Checking out Polynesians on a Terra map. Weird to see the whole map so early in the game.

I haven't had any DoW, haven't agreed to any DoF and everyone else is friendly to me. In the other hand they can't do anything to my Capital yet that being on the other continent (I just had to try it out, wasted some 50 turns before had a city). Also a Prince game so no extra rule advantages in one way or another.

 

[neilkaz]

Does anyone know what the AI starts with on Immortal? Anyhow...playing an Immortal game standard all defaults, standard new Eastern America map as Songhai I spawned nicely on the west side of the map and rather alone.

On turn 24 I got the message that the Rio civ had been conquered. LOL an AI took out a CS that early! Rather quickly (lots sooner than pre-patch) Nebz who'd been friendly decided to DOW me and a few warriors and a couple bowmen moved into my most easterly city (I'd made 4 new ones). I finished HBR just in time, and traded for two horses and took a small loan to rush buy a horseman. That and an archer scout and city fire rather quickly put an end to the invasion. A couple of badly wounded units ran home. As I was moving in against him, he asked for peace which I accepted since I included selling some spare lux's to him. Once ten turns expired, I brought him to his knees, although Babylon with its walls and a bowmen had 33 strength and was difficult to take without quite a few Mandakalus.

During this early game I had DOF's with many other civs which I think is useful long term for not having everyone against you. I didn't have a DOF with Nap and while it said he was friendly, when I sold him lux, I had to give him 2 gpt along with it for 300G.

As I've experienced before, when a supposedly friendly civ won't trade with you at full value, he probably isn't going to remain truly friendly. Sure enough, Nap DOW's me and moves a few units into my northern city (still rather far from him). They die quickly and after I've moved towards him for a couple turns, he offers me a very sweet peace deal of over 500G ,two lux I don't need and some res I don't need, and 22 GPT so I take it.

I also see more barbs than before, which when playing as Askia and with my usual Patronage whoring I don't really mind.

To stay healthy at this level of play, considering AI and barb early agressions, you will want to make an extra warrior or two (or something early). I also made another couple more horseman, noting that they'd soon become city killers. The early AI attacks didn't do much harm to me. I lost at most a warrior and an archer. I think Nap may have felt that I was wide open in the north so he attacked me, not taking into account how quickly my mounted units could respond. Anyhow, a few turns after peace and Nap is friendly again, and now pays full value for lux

I am currently friendly with everyone except Nebz who is about to be eliminated by Nap, and Sully who denounced me, being unhappy at fighting me for CS allies. Friendly Harun joined me in counter denouncing.

In general I think my friendships are useful and keeping good relations. I try to make sure that I don't have too much cash lieing around and to not have surplus stuff that they can ask for. I did have to give Oda 19 gpt. The game needs to be patched so that humans can ask and receive reasonable gifts from friendly AI civs.

.. neilkaz ..

 

[Deau]

@ Neilkaz,

Deity AI begins w 2 settlers, 3 warriors, 2 scouts and either 2 or 3 workers if my memory is correct. So I would expect 1-3 fewer units on Immortal. All I know is on Deity, this often leads to both scouts turned into archers and used on the first push, lots of gold from 3-4 units scouting the first 15 turns. and then since they do begin with a military advantage, they tend much much more than prepatch, to build warriors/archers and even use the early wealth to purchase more as well.

With a 2 city start on I believe it's emperor+, it impacts their early pushes a lot

sorry i can't provide exact numbers~

 

[Deau]

During this early game I had DOF's with many other civs which I think is useful long term for not having everyone against you. I didn't have a DOF with Nap and while it said he was friendly, when I sold him lux, I had to give him 2 gpt along with it for 300G.

As I've experienced before, when a supposedly friendly civ won't trade with you at full value, he probably isn't going to remain truly friendly. Sure enough, Nap DOW's me and moves a few units into my northern city (still rather far from him). They die quickly and after I've moved towards him for a couple turns, he offers me a very sweet peace deal of over 500G ,two lux I don't need and some res I don't need, and 22 GPT so I take it.

I think Nap may have felt that I was wide open in the north so he attacked me, not taking into account how quickly my mounted units could respond. Anyhow, a few turns after peace and Nap is friendly again, and now pays full value for lux

.. neilkaz ..

DoF is the only way I found to not get randomly DoWed by friendly civs throughout the whole game. Friendly AI that doesn't give full 300 is indeed a pointer that there is a hidden wrong. Sometimes it's they intend to attack you, other times it's just because you have DoFed someone they don't like or other similar behaviors that are indirect to them. In general, even neutral AIs will give you 300g in early game if you didn't do anything wrong yet. (although they won't buy or trade open borders)

It was said in patch notes that the tactical AI would sometimes engage war when a border flank is open for a quick push. So that was probably where the friendly-DoW came from through napoleon. That or he considered he had overall higher military power (operational AI change) but then if he did, I don't think he would've given you such a huge peace gift later.


I've also noticed that AIs return to friendly state after wars very often. Especially when you accept the first peace treaty offer or when you pick fewer than 2-3 cities (unless capital is in the load).

Nice game though, personnally I still really struggle on early wars on Deity as whenever I purchase units, I end up behind on RAs/CS allies. On the other hand I found to really appreciate the hammer saving of allying combat CSs early as opposed to taking maritimes/cultural. It blows that the units generally have no exp but it's cheaper gold/unit usually. Especially after patronage.

 

[vexing]

the bonuses are in the gameplay.xml.

the AI plays at chieftain difficulty, so they get those bonuses at any player difficulty:
12 happiness, 6 happiness per luxury, 60% city/pop happpiness, 1/2 cost road maintenance, 2/3rds unit cost, 2/3rds building cost, 2/3rds cost social policy, 95% cost research, 50% bonus vs barbs.

the ai specific bonuses on immortal are 2 warriors, 1 scout, 1 worker, 75% unhappiness, 75% cost to grow, 65% building cost, 65% unit cost, 50% upgrade cost.
the happiness bonuses multiply together for a total of 45%. i guess the other things may multiply as well but that is harder to test.

 

[Lyoncet]

DoF is the only way I found to not get randomly DoWed by friendly civs throughout the whole game. Friendly AI that doesn't give full 300 is indeed a pointer that there is a hidden wrong. Sometimes it's they intend to attack you, other times it's just because you have DoFed someone they don't like or other similar behaviors that are indirect to them. In general, even neutral AIs will give you 300g in early game if you didn't do anything wrong yet. (although they won't buy or trade open borders)

In my experience, some civs that appear friendly but are actually preparing to backstab you will often still give you the full 300 per luxury and 50 for open borders. Your point is correct, but it's important to remember that getting the full value doesn't mean they're not plotting on you.

 

[Radox the Green]

I've just been playing OCC Domination (Immortal, Pangaea, Russia (for the iron)) and bought Rio so I could upgrade my Cats to Trebs. I've got the iron and the money, but it won't allow it as apparently CS don't count as friendly terrain any more. Has anyone else found this? If this is genuine then it totally stuffs OCC Domination.

I've not found the AI any more threatening or intelligent, though, in contrast to several posts above. While the army was off conquering Iroquois, Japan and Songhai the Turks DOWed but it was just 4 horsemen, 4 archers, 4-6 warriors/spears. The city plus one warrior and eventually one horseman was easily enough to kill them all. They pillaged one cotton (fine, I've already got the cash for it) but moronically didn't pillage the iron, which would of course have led to the collapse of the field army. Mind you, this isn't really a complaint as pillaging is deeply irritating and the game is better of without it.

 

[KevinMiles90000]

I've found that it's actually preferable to have the AI rush you with warriors in the first 20-30 or so turns. Usually all you need to defeat it is maybe an archer or a couple of warriors yourself. It only becomes a problem when they start bringing swordsmen/chariots.

 

[Deau]

I've found that it's actually preferable to have the AI rush you with warriors in the first 20-30 or so turns. Usually all you need to defeat it is maybe an archer or a couple of warriors yourself. It only becomes a problem when they start bringing swordsmen/chariots.

Yeah the tactical AI is rather bad at doing an efficient warrior rush because they start attacking before having the city fully surrounded. A city w 11 defense can take a 6 warrior rush that's mishandled without even any unit. Turns 30-40 rushes with 6-8 warriors and 5 archers or so are much harder to defend given you have like what +1 city defense from population?

 

[fromar]

I've just been playing OCC Domination (Immortal, Pangaea, Russia (for the iron)) and bought Rio so I could upgrade my Cats to Trebs. I've got the iron and the money, but it won't allow it as apparently CS don't count as friendly terrain any more. Has anyone else found this? If this is genuine then it totally stuffs OCC Domination.

You are correct, no upgrading in foreign lands anymore. This goes for open border agreements with the AI as well.

I'm not sure what the logic behind the change is - is it an exploit to upgrade in friendly foreign territory?

 

[LAnkou]

i don't know if it's the new patch, but all AIs consider me a cold-blooded murderer without denouncing me...that's what it gives to kill Rome and and the US)

Aztecs asked me not to colonize lands and i said them that their opinion didn't matter => they denounce me...sounds pretty logic

I repeat myself but in my game, the AI seems to underexpand:
1130 AD
rome killed with 1 city in the BC
USA killed with 1 city in the AD
aztecs 2 cities
England 4 cities
France around 4 cities (5 max)
i'm aiming for astronomy and the others continents to see if it's really really bad AI at expanding

Aztecs tried to attack me once and it was a decent force, but i killed it and when it was clear there was not enough to take a city from me, they called for peace=>that sounds intelligent for me

Maybe it's partial impression, but i really enjoy a lot more the AI (even the underexpanding part)

 

[snarzberry]

Longsword rush is still working for me on deity, but I can notice the difference in AI behavior. They are focus attacking more with ranged units and then cleaning up damaged units with horsemen/cav. They lose the horse but it's like an exchange in chess and is good for the AI due to their numbers. I've noticed they won't suicide units into a fortified wall of melee now either, which is good.

During later sieges when catapults/trebs are a requirement I'm using a medic in the back line as a priority so I can fortify the unit that the AI is focus attacking and prevent it dying while the rest attack. A reserve or two comes in handy as well. I've found that having 4 good longsword units and two trebs with a GG can take down a 45 - 50 strength city supported by at least one reserve LS with the medic promotion.

 

[vexing]

I've noticed they won't suicide units into a fortified wall of melee now either, which is good.

i think they might be lacking in some part of that calculation, because i had a game where the AI suicided a warrior in an over river on to hill attack against my fortified warrior two turns in a row. maybe the warriors were expected to live, which could have left them in a positive position, but as it was they had no chance of killing my warrior in either attack.

 

[Pac-Dragon]

I wonder if they're not calculating the cost of attacking over a river? I've seen a handful of suicide attacks after the patch, but now that you mention it they have all been attacks over a river.

 

[Deau]

You are correct, no upgrading in foreign lands anymore. This goes for open border agreements with the AI as well.

I'm not sure what the logic behind the change is - is it an exploit to upgrade in friendly foreign territory?

It was OP on continents dom games (or any map involving naval) as you didn't need to settle a new city to avoid suffering from the oversea travel. You can't upgrade in allied CSs territory either anymore. Ultimately though, it forces you to chose between sailing over possibly facing even tech or better teched units or finding lands to settle (at the cost of SPs) or even maybe screw up a CS at the risk of very bad diplomatic penalties and maybe some casualties on the way. The last option is to rush a coastal city and upgrade after your first capture but if it's defenses shift fast enough they can tear your embarked units from range on the shore and really harm your further progression in the same way as the other above situations will.

 

[Kevin J]

If any one has any detailed insight into the new ai behaviour, it would be a very useful read. Prior to the patch I almost never lost units; now I find the ai catches me out of place a lot more often. The changes are just enough that I find I can't predict the ai's moves as well.

 

[Deau]

@Kevin J

Currently, the AI only launches it's units at your front line if it expects to do enough total damage in one turn to kill your unit (aka odds of killing it >50%). All the way to artillery, this can prove as playing in your favor because if you hold your line tight, you can slowly push their melee units backwards and then fire them slowly with range once they're cornered (obviously that's granted you make sure your units are always on their favored terrain so that their strength, in the calculation of odds to kill, is to it's best potential.

Once your opponent picks artillery up, you should avoid getting into their territory for so long as you are not absolutely sure you will survive range:3 mass bombardment. A good way to tell is to send a worker out to scout their artillery position. If you move in such a way that only one of them can hit your unit, it won't be able to kill it and you should be able to move your own artillery accordingly to blow theirs one by one slowly pushing.

It's a much bigger strain and slows domination game pace significantly if you don't win before range:3 units but ultimately it's a serious improvement to the game.

Other than that, they have done changes to tactical AI and operational AI to increase chances of "sneaky" DoWs. The exact 2-3 lines of interest, I believe, were posted previously in this thread but basically whenever your total military strength is lower than that of an opponent AI, there are chances it will DoW and launch an attack on you, regardless of current relationship (although it is very, very not likely to break a declaration of friendship, it will very often break RAs/trades and go from friend status to war and back to friend status if the war didn't involve "too much" city swaps).

Many players have been switching their total dom attempts into diplomatic victory attempts because the changes make it much more challenging to go for total dom as you basically need to pause your wars from as soon as an opponent gets artillery...all the way up until you get BOTH artillery and infantry (so that your front line doesn't get killed the very turn it moves one hex forward to scout their lands so you can shoot from range:3 as well)

In this particular setup, the relative value of powered-up classical/medieval siege weapons with the +1 range promotion becomes a huge advantage. Enough to the point of allowing you to keep pushing with rifleman front line and range:4 artillery upgraded. Obviously the better way is to always be first on the next important military tech but that's pretty hard to achieve, especially on higher difficulty levels. It thus becomes important to attempt to avoid hurting your diplomatic relations with the civs you plan on attacking later in the game. This way, chances are they won't DoW and tear you up right as soon as they get a slight tech lead(aka not what I did in the game I'm mentionning below).

My current deity game I took 14 cities without any casualties on an ottoman janissary->rifle upgrade rush only to catch up to the Iroquois and England with about 25 turns of research ahead of me (the first had artillery, the later had infantry) Iawatha DoWed me and slowly mowed through my very very promoted front line (each had 3 terrain special, march & blitz atop the janissary baseline promotions) with his 10 artillery..."game over" (I can still win as diplomatic quite easily but the total war is pretty much done, as by the time I recover, tech and units wise, nukes & aircrafts will be out and doing about the same those artillery did to me.