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Thoughts on this comment

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by blunderwonder, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. NetGear

    NetGear King

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    Nonriver grasslands that cant be irrigated are preferably avoided in favor of running high yield tiles + whipping anyway. And when cities are generally allowed to grow big you will have your civil service too, so I don't see it much as a dilemma unless you don't have other decent tiles to work.
     
  2. shulgi

    shulgi Warlord

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    @Netgear - I see, thanks.
     
  3. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    I hope you aren't trying to reply to me because if you are, you clearly did not read my post. If you want to have a conversation you can read what I actually said and reply to it, otherwise I'll just assume you aren't talking to me
     
  4. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    To take up Kadazzle's point, you're confusing efficiency as a matter of tile yields with efficiency as a means to secure victory.

    Strictly speaking, the best tiles to work in the game are Towns that have been boosted by Universal Suffrage and Free Speech. As long as you can secure the Kremlin, their productive capacity exceeds that of Communist powered Workshops and Watermills.

    However, on most maps, it is not "efficient" (in terms of winning) to wait until 1300-1600 AD to become "efficient" (in terms of tile yields). If you have an equal or smaller number of cities than any one AI, their bonuses, particularly at the higher levels, work in such a way as to prevent you from outpacing their tech or production rates.

    Going to war with whipped Elephants vs. Archers is more "efficient" than working Hamlets and Villages because it secures you additional cities with additional infrastructure, tiles to work, and potential production. Drafting and whipping Rifles en masse is more "efficient" than working Towns in Free Speech, because the unit is so much more powerful than defenders from the previous era.

    That is why a hybrid economy is, as a rule, the most powerful. A hybrid economy denotes flexibility, and with a non-Financial leader, this usually means that the capital will be cottaged and serve as the driving force for your empire's beakers and gold. Other cities help to grow these cottages and produce infrastructure, units, and great people via less "efficient" farmed tiles. These tiles can then be converted into Workshops and Watermills at the time when new civics and technologies make these options more "efficient" (usually after or during a Renaissance war).

    A Philosophical leader does not add much to a Specialist Economy. Running Specialists in six cities will not secure you one GP per city. A hybrid economy is still more "efficient," to use that word once again: one or two cities should run Specialists, which they generate at 100% speed compared to other leaders. One of these should have the Heroic Epic and, ideally, TGL. Other cities should still whip units/infrastructure and build Wealth or Research. Your capital should still be cottaged.

    Obvious exceptions to the above are the SSE and an early Mids for Representation. You should also (and always) play the map.
     
  5. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Did you guys even bother to read my comment? We're arguing over semantics. You seem to think a SE implies never building cottages, or that a CE implies not having even one specialist. that's not true. I've been on the forums a long time (I had a different account, noto, which I lost access to and why I'm noto2 that I opened waaaaaaaay back in like 2001-2002).
    If you have one GP farm but several cottage cities, that's a CE
    If you have a cottage capital but hire specialists in other cities and don't really have cottages outside the capital, that's a SE,
    A true hybrid economy would be one where you have several GP farms in your empire, several cities with workshops/watermills, and several cottage cities. Of course I have had games like that, especially war games where I take over a lot of neighbour cities.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The semantics are still there. Your definitions for these "economies" is arbitrary...and it's harmful to think in those terms anyway. That you have 2 cottage cities is not important, the question is WHY you have them.
     
  7. Kaosprophet

    Kaosprophet Warlord

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    Yes, we are.

    I posit that it's your fault this happened, though. You started your post with the phrase "the terms do mean something," which is an invitation to discuss the semantics.

    And by semantical logic:

    both of these are valid claims. Build one cottage, or run one specialist, and you're now *technically speaking* a hybrid.
     
  8. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    And presumably produce one commerce and you're no longer a hammer economy. This is clearly an absurd and worthless definition of a "hybrid".
     
  9. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Well to be fair most of the more experienced players hated the terms SE and CE. And you're right, TMIT, I shouldn't pretend that I can set any definitions on these terms. I think it's more helpful to look at one's long term economic plans, and which civics one is planning on running. How I develop my land depends on what I plan on doing in the mid-late game. If I plan on running US/FS then I'll be more inclined to build cottages. If, on the other hand, for some reason I've decided to settle GP and try to make a super science city with them, I'll obviously be running rep, and probably caste, and pacifism, and probably bureaucracy. There are also games where I do a lot of warring early game and build a lot of farms/mines. If this goes to the late game I might run SP and replace the farms with watermills and spam workshops everywhere. The point is, you can't be doing all of these at once and you're forced to make choices. The only time I run what I would call a hybrid economy, where I have a plethora of cities doing all kinds of different things, is when I've conquered tons of land and I just have far too many cities, most captured, to be bothered to specialize them.
     
  10. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Why not just say "I'm running a 'what works best on this map at this stage of the game' economy"?
     
  11. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    Because SE and CE came out as terms to describe strategy. Every player who plays to win thinks they are running what works best etc etc; but how do you describe what might work well?
     
  12. babar

    babar King

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    It's funny, what everyone is calling a hybrid economy (cottage the capital, and pretty much nowhere else) is what I always considered a SE. When I first started playing SE years ago, this was what the SE advocates were recommending. No one I can remember was recommending that you don't cottage the capital. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned HE = SE :D.
     
  13. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Hardly, in a SE you use specials to gain beakers not rely in your capital for 90% of your research, and bulbs for the rest.
     
  14. WelshGandalf

    WelshGandalf King

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    I don't understand the hate for the SE/CE language. I found it VERY useful when I first came here.

    Every game I ask myself early on where my commerce is coming from. WIll I be leaning more towards the SE or the CE side of things? Or will I be doing neither (and just building GLH or something else)? I still use these terms, even though I end up with what I suppose would be called a hybrid economy.
     
  15. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    This is exactly the problem, they entrap new players who don't understand the complexities, and need to adapt. So they get stuck in only doing one way.
     
  16. babar

    babar King

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    SE was always 50+% research from your cottaged capital, and encouraged a lot of bulbing.

    I guess you could use the food in other cities for production (of wealth or military) rather than for specialists, but it was always the strong point of an SE that one could switch back and forth between the two.

    It's true that "SE" is not a great name, but it was never about getting all of your research from specialists.
     
  17. babar

    babar King

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    I've never seen players on this forum trapped by the idea that they have to get all of their research from specialists. I don't think new players are in danger of basing their entire strategy on a couple of words.
     
  18. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Oh but they do. Look at the OP, he only uses cottages on every non hill.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The detail in the terminology is so piss poor and inconsistently perceived that they wind up useless.

    Regardless of what you think, there have been quite a few threads here exactly like that over the years. The only reason you don't see it now is how heavily good players have come down on the usage of the terminology in the past, doing much to squelch it.

    It was one of the most amusing debates in the early existence of civ IV and I regret that I missed a lot of that, but the community has grown to know better.
     
  20. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Yes I remember those debates. Look, we can turn our noses up at using terms but terms do serve a purpose. It's like first year political science class, everyone arguing over left wing politics vs right wing politics and then arguing about those terms themselves. You get people who say "don't use terms because no one knows what they mean and everyone has a different definition!!" but then why use language at all? Eventually you have to come to some kind of understanding about a term. It's like saying the word "freedom". A lot of people throw the word around and it loses meaning, but we still use it, right? Who would argue that we should stop using the word freedom because it's difficult to define?
    Maybe you don't like the terms CE and SE. Fine, we don't have to use those terms, but the fact is in Civ there are certain patterns that emerge in economic management. Like others have said, a bureaucracy cottage capital is a common one. Another common pattern is cottages spammed everywhere. People have tried to come up with terms to describe these patterns and many players, myself included, find these terms useful.
     

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