Tides of Crimson (FANTASY MOD)

[tjs282]

Once two Civs have met each other, there is no way to prevent them from declaring war on each other -- regardless of how practical (or not!) it might be to prosecute that war.

The best that can be done (at least on Archi/Cont maps) is to prevent Civs on distant landmasses from meeting until later on in the game, by making Seas/Oceans "Impassable-to-Wheeled", and giving all early boats the "Wheeled" unit-flag, so that they can't cross the wider gaps -- and/or by similarly disabling/ delaying the sale of Maps + Contacts. But none of that will help on Pan-maps.

And the only way to prevent the Civ3-AI from forming 'weird' Alliances (and MPPs) is to take those Diplo-functions out of the game altogether -- or at least, unlock them at a sufficiently late stage that there will likely be far fewer potential partners left on the map, and hence comparatively fewer potential "odd couples".

AI-attitudes (and therefore their tendency to belligerence) towards other Civs are somewhat affected by Culture-grouping and e.g. their choices to adopt favoured/shunned governments, but attitudes are mostly shaped by prior diplomatic history (embassies, ongoing trades/gifts, past wars, city-razing, etc.) and the current state of the game (e.g. everyone hates the current high scorer!

Can't remember if Flavor-relationships can also be used to influence AI diplomatic relationships -- but even if so, I also don't know whether @haluu has already implemented any Flavor-ing in ToC (?).

So getting the "good guys" to reliably align against the "bad guys" can really only be forced by grouping the tribes into Locked Alliances -- which is sort of OK (LAs don't work 100% reliably) for fixed-map/ turn-limited Scenarios such as the Firaxis Napoleonic and WWII Conquests, but would severely limit player-freedom (i.e. fun!) in a random-map epic-game.

 

[haluu]

Hey ! I was a bit busy for the summer. I recently started (another) orc map Still loving the mod, I need to test other races to give more feedback, but I will have a bit less time soon.
Like I said earlier, maybe creating a discord community or something like will help discussing more frequently.

What about you ? Do you have anything to say about the mod or the game in general ? Any progression ?

Understood, glad to hear you are still enjoying it! I actually haven't had much time to work on the mod either due to a large personal life event, but when I'm done with this phase, I should be able to work on it again, maybe start up that discord channel.

The project for new version 3.0 is getting rather large since I haven't had much time lately to even work on it, so I'm considering releasing a small patch to fix some gameplay issues you and others have helped identify (e.g. incorrect Sneaky Git shield cost) until I can find some time to work on the mod again.

 

[haluu]

Little feedback/note about the game ! I love the fact that in ToC AI are always fighting with everyone consistently, it's really funny, unlike base game where I feel AI is way less agressive, so for that it's just perfect. I just don't know if it's possible to make them fight closer for their borders (instead of doing wars with someone super far away) and/or with their cultural/alignement affinities, the fact Burning legion is doing a military alliance with high elves against brehtons for example can be funny but is also very random.

I also have a question, I doubt it's even possible because I didn't saw any mod with it, but can you add more terrain types ? For example a corrupted/dark land for undead/demon factions ?

Once two Civs have met each other, there is no way to prevent them from declaring war on each other -- regardless of how practical (or not!) it might be to prosecute that war.

The best that can be done (at least on Archi/Cont maps) is to prevent Civs on distant landmasses from meeting until later on in the game, by making Seas/Oceans "Impassable-to-Wheeled", and giving all early boats the "Wheeled" unit-flag, so that they can't cross the wider gaps -- and/or by similarly disabling/ delaying the sale of Maps + Contacts. But none of that will help on Pan-maps.

And the only way to prevent the Civ3-AI from forming 'weird' Alliances (and MPPs) is to take those Diplo-functions out of the game altogether -- or at least, unlock them at a sufficiently late stage that there will likely be far fewer potential partners left on the map, and hence comparatively fewer potential "odd couples".

AI-attitudes (and therefore their tendency to belligerence) towards other Civs are somewhat affected by Culture-grouping and e.g. their choices to adopt favoured/shunned governments, but attitudes are mostly shaped by prior diplomatic history (embassies, ongoing trades/gifts, past wars, city-razing, etc.) and the current state of the game (e.g. everyone hates the current high scorer!

Can't remember if Flavor-relationships can also be used to influence AI diplomatic relationships -- but even if so, I also don't know whether @haluu has already implemented any Flavor-ing in ToC (?).

So getting the "good guys" to reliably align against the "bad guys" can really only be forced by grouping the tribes into Locked Alliances -- which is sort of OK (LAs don't work 100% reliably) for fixed-map/ turn-limited Scenarios such as the Firaxis Napoleonic and WWII Conquests, but would severely limit player-freedom (i.e. fun!) in a random-map epic-game.

Flavors are implemented in the game and good races, for ex, are more likely to align with other good races than evil races. However, there will still be times when they don't obey this alignment entirely due to the factors that TJS mentioned.

@Xalarak dark terrains are not implemented in the random map scenario since it's hard to control where that terrain will populate, but this is indeed a plan for future scenario ToC maps. (Version 3.0 which is unfortunately, as mentioned above, on hold until I can find additional time).

 

[Xalarak]

Flavors are implemented in the game and good races, for ex, are more likely to align with other good races than evil races. However, there will still be times when they don't obey this alignment entirely due to the factors that TJS mentioned.

@Xalarak dark terrains are not implemented in the random map scenario since it's hard to control where that terrain will populate, but this is indeed a plan for future scenario ToC maps. (Version 3.0 which is unfortunately, as mentioned above, on hold until I can find additional time).

That's cool to hear !

Maybe a small update could be interesting, as you wish !

Im waiting for the discord with impatience if you are still up to

 

[haluu]

That's cool to hear !

Maybe a small update could be interesting, as you wish !

Im waiting for the discord with impatience if you are still up to

Yes!! Apologies for the delay, all that is coming. After my string of life events are over .. . I'm hoping sooner than later!

In the meantime, hope you are enjoying the game!!!

 

[Xalarak]

Hi No news from some time now ! So im trying to know what is the current progress !

 

[haluu]

Hi No news from some time now ! So im trying to know what is the current progress !

Hi xalarak! So sorry for the delay. I recently have been going through a lot personally.

Hoping to still get that small patch out soon! Hope your ToC adventures are still going well? Would be interested to hear how your games have been going if you wouldn't mind sharing. .

 

[Sir Henry]

Back six years later playing another multiplayer game with my friends. Glad to see the mod is still being updated!

We haven't started the game yet but we were wondering if there was a tier list somewhere for the civilizations, especially since they all play so differently.

I've only played a few games on my own but the Frostlings seem to be the most difficult

 

[haluu]

Back six years later playing another multiplayer game with my friends. Glad to see the mod is still being updated!

We haven't started the game yet but we were wondering if there was a tier list somewhere for the civilizations, especially since they all play so differently.

I've only played a few games on my own but the Frostlings seem to be the most difficult

Hi Sir Henry, glad to hear you've been enjoying the game! Frostlings are indeed a different breed. . Hope you and your friends have fun!

Are you referring to like a unit stats sheet for all the races, I do have one that I've built out so I can edit the game. It may not be 100% up to date, but should give you a good idea of the unit rosters at a glance. Would you like me to send that to you?

 

[Sir Henry]

Hi Sir Henry, glad to hear you've been enjoying the game! Frostlings are indeed a different breed. . Hope you and your friends have fun!

Are you referring to like a unit stats sheet for all the races, I do have one that I've built out so I can edit the game. It may not be 100% up to date, but should give you a good idea of the unit rosters at a glance. Would you like me to send that to you?

No, I was looking for a tier list of the civilizations from easiest to hardest based on traits, unit stats, ect.

Maybe it's not possible because they're all unique and well-balanced but to give a basic idea:

Easiest
Wood Elves, ect.

Somewhat Difficult
Naga, ect.

Hardest
Frostlings, etc.

Example for base game: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/introductory/civilizations-from-easiest-to-hardest/

If there isn't a list like this maybe I'll have to play all the races and make my own...

 

[haluu]

@Sir Henry I see what you are saying. There's not something like this currently, but I can put something together for you. I think it's a great idea!

The civpedia will give a lot of this information by race, but I can add something that focuses more on this difficulty level of play from the human side. Does that sound good?

 

[Sir Henry]

@Sir Henry I see what you are saying. There's not something like this currently, but I can put something together for you. I think it's a great idea!

The civpedia will give a lot of this information by race, but I can add something that focuses more on this difficulty level of play from the human side. Does that sound good?

Yea sounds great! I might make my own for comparison's sake if I get around to playing all of the races.

 

[haluu]

@Sir Henry, that sounds great! maybe we can make this a team effort as well, would love to work with you on this great idea. I can work on it, but it won't be right away so maybe you can get it out quicker, or we can bounce race profiles back and forth between eachother and discuss!

Thanks!

 

[tjs282]

Some of that ranking would be subject to things like Map-type (e.g. Seafarers tend to do better on Archi-maps, Explorers on Pan-maps) and Map-size, Krog settings, chosen difficulty, etc.

In Civ3 in general, Agricultural tribes/species will almost always do well unless nerfed, e.g. by making Deserts non-irrigable, and/or by having weak units (ToC Hobbits are an interesting challenge in that regard). Same goes for Industrious species.

Specific to ToC, species which can only obtain Settler-type units by long-duration auto-production and/or Summoning will (unless the pRNG is skewed in their favour by cheap-but-strong early attackers) likely have a (much) harder early game than those which can hand-build Settlers -- especially at higher difficulties where the builders will be getting new Settlers out fast due to AI cost-factor discounts.

Of the (randomly selected) species I've played so far (mostly at Emperor, all on Std Archi or Continents, all-random opponents, restless or raging Krogs), the Orcs were probably the easiest, and the Hobbits and Undead the most difficult (although the small half-Tundra island start didn't help in the latter game!). But I've only played about a third of the available roster, and mostly the 'Good' species And some of those games were also on earlier ToC versions (which still had some substantial bugs), and/or before I installed any of the Flintlock patches.

Of the games that I've played, the AI has generally seemed to do well with the Ossirians, the Ramayanians, and the Brehton. AI-controlled High and Moon Elves could also thrive under good conditions (Wood Elves not so much, and Dark Elves rarely if ever), as could the Andori and Hobbits, but most of the other non-human species tended to get left in the dust (at least on the map-settings I prefer to use).

 

[haluu]

Some of that ranking would be subject to things like Map-type (e.g. Seafarers tend to do better on Archi-maps, Explorers on Pan-maps) and Map-size, Krog settings, chosen difficulty, etc.

In Civ3 in general, Agricultural tribes/species will almost always do well unless nerfed, e.g. by making Deserts non-irrigable, and/or by having weak units (ToC Hobbits are an interesting challenge in that regard). Same goes for Industrious species.

Specific to ToC, species which can only obtain Settler-type units by long-duration auto-production and/or Summoning will (unless the pRNG is skewed in their favour by cheap-but-strong early attackers) likely have a (much) harder early game than those which can hand-build Settlers -- especially at higher difficulties where the builders will be getting new Settlers out fast due to AI cost-factor discounts.

Of the (randomly selected) species I've played so far (mostly at Emperor, all on Std Archi or Continents, all-random opponents, restless or raging Krogs), the Orcs were probably the easiest, and the Hobbits and Undead the most difficult (although the small half-Tundra island start didn't help in the latter game!). But I've only played about a third of the available roster, and mostly the 'Good' species And some of those games were also on earlier ToC versions (which still had some substantial bugs), and/or before I installed any of the Flintlock patches.

Of the games that I've played, the AI has generally seemed to do well with the Ossirians, the Ramayanians, and the Brehton. AI-controlled High and Moon Elves could also thrive under good conditions (Wood Elves not so much, and Dark Elves rarely if ever), as could the Andori and Hobbits, but most of the other non-human species tended to get left in the dust (at least on the map-settings I prefer to use).

Great assessment, TJS. I agree with all your points. Also agree with the map playing a big part in the variance of which races are 'easier' to play with. Definitely difficulty and Krog settings matter too. For example, the Dark Elves or Ethropa Swarm will struggle without a plethora of Krogs to pick on to build their forces (which is also why it's recommended to leave Krog settings on very high in order to maintain racial balance).

I will also add that the 'easiest' to play as far as maybe 'good for beginners' may indeed be the Brehtons, Orcs, Osiri, High Elves, Wood Elves, etc. Other races are just as good, but might require more experience to play with. For instance, in the right hands and circumstance, the Dark Elves can be deadly with their autoproduced early units and ability to multiply their forces. Hobbits can catapult you to an economic victory if you can strategically manipulate your weaker forces long enough for them to gain strength. I think this goes for pretty much all the races. ToC was designed with balance in mind, but it's natural for some folks to gravitate towards some races more than others based on play style.

@Sir Henry

 

[haluu]

HI all,
We're slowly trying to get back into the continued development of this mod. In the meantime, We've created a Discord Channel for those who want to discuss all things Tides of Crimson. Might also be useful for organizing an online game with others.

Here's the Discord Channel Link for Civ - Toc:

Join the Civ 3 - Tides of Crimson Discord Server!

Check out the Civ 3 - Tides of Crimson community on Discord - hang out with 1 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

discord.gg

@Xalarak