Tip Credit

[say1988]

If you pay the waitstaff more they make more.

The idea is not to just pay them more, but to change the system. Instead of being expected to give a minimum 10-15% tip all prices should be raised by 10-15% which covers the wage increase. Then tipping should only occur when the server deserves it.

Cooks get paid a full wage.

But they affect the tips recieved by servers.

 

[Perfection]

Even if the difference has to be paid to cover minimum wage, you're still taking an unfair hit in income.

Why must it always be unfair? If someone is making good money in one of these systems, what exactly is the problem?

When I delivered pizza, my store was the last in town that still paid it's drivers full minimum wage. The rest had gone to tip credit or some kind of alternating half-pay scheme. (Either one is just a slimy way for corporate fat cats to profit on OPTIONAL customer tips and take them away from the employee)

Since my employer was hardly covering my gas expenses and not paying anything at all for my car's maintenance, I would have found it downright despicable if they also decided to cut my income by legally stealing my tips from me.

People can be underpaid in pretty much any pay system.

 

[Perfection]

The idea is not to just pay them more, but to change the system. Instead of being expected to give a minimum 10-15% tip all prices should be raised by 10-15% which covers the wage increase. Then tipping should only occur when the server deserves it.

One could advocate that, but tipping behavior isn't something that can be simply legislated away.

But they affect the tips recieved by servers.

While there is probably some correlation of food quality to tip size (happy customers do tip more), I don't tip based on quality of food, I tip based on quality of service.

 

[Old Hippy]

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.

a customer pays for the US meal plus tip ... total say $50

same customer goes to European hotel pays for meal $50 no tip... total say $50

their is no increse in costs

Now same customer gets a very salty atrocious meal in US pays for meal says "stuff the tip" pays $42... the owner of the restaurant gets his full costs plus profit... the waitstaff get $2 an hour and yes the cook gets full paid too(and fired) now the only quality thing about the experience might have been the excellent wait staff service
so the waitstaff carries the risk for the business and the boss assumes no risk, for a full profit

and if you tip for a very bad meal... its purley because you Know the poor wait staff are expected to do this for $2 an hour and you Know this to be wrong

 

[Perfection]

a customer pays for the US meal plus tip ... total say $50

same customer goes to European hotel pays for meal $50 no tip... total say $50

their is no increse in costs

Now same customer gets a very salty atrocious meal in US pays for meal says "stuff the tip" pays $42... the owner of the restaurant gets his full costs plus profit... the waitstaff get $2 an hour and yes the cook gets full paid too(and fired) now the only quality thing about the experience might have been the excellent wait staff service
so the waitstaff carries the risk for the business and the boss assumes no risk, for a full profit

My post is about the tip credit, not tipping in general. Changing the tip credit law isn't going to change how most customers tip.

 

[say1988]

One could advocate that, but tipping behavior isn't something that can be simply legislated away.

But the law creates an expectation of tipping, and is always used as an argument that you must always tip at restaurants. You need to change that before changing the culture.

While there is probably some correlation of food quality to tip size (happy customers do tip more), I don't tip based on quality of food, I tip based on quality of service.

Do you tip less if you are served the wrong food? Or if the speed of service is terrible?
Both of these could be the waiter, kitchen or (if different) the server and you have no way of knowing where the issue is. Pretty much any wait staff issue could even be entirely management's fault do to a lack of training or not enough employees on the floor.

 

[Old Hippy]

My post is about the tip credit, not tipping in general. Changing the tip credit law isn't going to change how most customers tip.

No but if you tip it would be for the whole experince and if the wait staff make $20 an hour like they do where i live, well then you can either divide it up between all staff (cooks cleaners waitstaff and management) like they do here or keep it for profit

and how much are you going to tip... when they get $20 an hour, so it would change habits and restraunts would have to learn to charge for the cost of their service which other business do all the time

 

[Perfection]

But the law creates an expectation of tipping, and is always used as an argument that you must always tip at restaurants. You need to change that before changing the culture.

The law is not the source of the expectation of tipping. You're not going to change tipping practice much with it.

Do you tip less if you are served the wrong food? Or if the speed of service is terrible?
Both of these could be the waiter, kitchen or (if different) the server and you have no way of knowing where the issue is. Pretty much any wait staff issue could even be entirely management's fault do to a lack of training or not enough employees on the floor.

Well, if the place is understaffed that is typically readily apparent and something I can account for, and the waiter should ensure that my food is correct.

No but if you tip it would be for the whole experince and if the wait staff make $20 an hour like they do where i live, well then you can either divide it up between all staff (cooks cleaners waitstaff and management) like they do here or keep it for profit

and how much are you going to tip... when they get $20 an hour, so it would change habits and restraunts would have to learn to charge for the cost of their service which other business do all the time

I'm not disputing the possibility of going to another system, only noting that changing the law isn't going to simply do that.

 

[Cutlass]

Let's say that an employee earns $20/hr on tips. Why should the employer be forced to bump the wage up and increase the companies expenses? Remember we're talking restaurants here, many of these aren't owned by giant corporate fatcats.

It doesn't seem to trouble the restaurants in places with enforced minimum wages.

 

[Perfection]

It doesn't seem to trouble the restaurants in places with enforced minimum wages.

Source?

 

[Cutlass]

Like peeps were saying, California. They have plenty of restaurants there.

 

[Perfection]

Like peeps were saying, California. They have plenty of restaurants there.

So what? Just because many restaurants continue to exist doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems. Maybe there would be more or better restaurants with a tip credit system.

 

[Cutlass]

And maybe there wouldn't, and you relive the pressure on the server so they do a better job.

 

[say1988]

The law is not the source of the expectation of tipping. You're not going to change tipping practice much with it.

You won't change tipping practices by changing the law. But you can't change tipping practices without changing the law.

and the waiter should ensure that my food is correct.

A waiter can't always tell. If you are served something incorrect that is visually identical to what you ordered, did the waiter give the wrong order, did the cook make the wrong thing, or did the server take the wrong plate?

 

[Perfection]

And maybe there wouldn't, and you relive the pressure on the server so they do a better job.

You can speculate all you want. In the end you're just making baseless claims.

You won't change tipping practices by changing the law. But you can't change tipping practices without changing the law.

I dunno about that. Just because it's legal for restaurants to pay less then minimum doesn't mean they will.

A waiter can't always tell. If you are served something incorrect that is visually identical to what you ordered, did the waiter give the wrong order, did the cook make the wrong thing, or did the server take the wrong plate?

I've never been served the incorrect item that was visually identical. I'm sure you could find an instance of that happening, but that's not particularly compelling to me if it's still mostly fair.

 

[Bugfatty300]

In my experience, people who don't want to tip will always find an excuse not to do so. People who do tip will generally always tip unless the service is absolutely rock bottom terrible.

 

[illram]

You can speculate all you want. In the end you're just making baseless claims.

But that's all you're doing?

UC Berkeley did a study on this and concluded:

...tipped workers receive higher wages and have lower levels of poverty where the tipped minimum wage is relatively high.

Let's say I work at IHOP in a state that follows Federal minimum wage law. I make 7.25/hour. As the employer I get to deduct $5.25 from that amount per hour for tips. (Actually the employer must pay at least $2.13, but let's make this simpler and assume we live in Oklahoma, where it is $2.00.) 5 hours/day (average shift) @ 7.25 = $36.25/day. If I work 5 days a week all 52 weeks that year I lost $6825 in wages.

This is also assuming my employer is not screwing me in other ways, such as over-reporting my tips, making me engage in an illegal tip pooling policy, making me work hours on non-tip work (e.g., sidework, if you have ever worked in a restaurant you know how long that can be) but nonetheless deducting my wages for it, not giving me meal breaks, not calculating my overtime properly, deducting wages for dine and dash, deducting wages for breakage, or other shenanigans common in the restaurant biz.

There is also the problem that when we put sub-minimum wage into law, it was 50% of the federal wage, and now it is less than a third because the restaurant lobby (e.g. the Nat'l Restaurant Association; think owners of major franchises such as Chevy's, Denny's IHOP, Applebees, and Herman Cain, etc.) have successfully lobbied Congress to freeze it.

 

[Old Hippy]

@ Perfection
if we accept your argument and apparent practice of tipping.... one presumes you also tip your bank tellers, bus drivers , teachers ( with more than a shinny apple) a special tip for service when the government tax auditor does a good job (offers advice that saves you a court appearance) your doctor saves your life you give him 17% bonus ... on top of the $60 K bill ... do you slip your dentist's receptionist $5 when she fits you in at short notice

or do you just do it for workers who turn up at below minimum wage

 

[Perfection]

But that's all you're doing?

UC Berkeley did a study on this and concluded:

...tipped workers receive higher wages and have lower levels of poverty where the tipped minimum wage is relatively high.

Why should that factoid interest me?

Let's say I work at IHOP in a state that follows Federal minimum wage law. I make 7.25/hour. As the employer I get to deduct $5.25 from that amount per hour for tips. (Actually the employer must pay at least $2.13, but let's make this simpler and assume we live in Oklahoma, where it is $2.00.) 5 hours/day (average shift) @ 7.25 = $36.25/day. If I work 5 days a week all 52 weeks that year I lost $6825 in wages.

So what? Maybe at your skill level you don't deserve that money. Maybe the restaurant couldn't support all those extra wages.

This is also assuming my employer is not screwing me in other ways, such as over-reporting my tips, making me engage in an illegal tip pooling policy, making me work hours on non-tip work (e.g., sidework, if you have ever worked in a restaurant you know how long that can be) but nonetheless deducting my wages for it, not giving me meal breaks, not calculating my overtime properly, deducting wages for dine and dash, deducting wages for breakage, or other shenanigans common in the restaurant biz.

Why should those problems have bearing here?

 

[Perfection]

@ Perfection
if we accept your argument and apparent practice of tipping.... one presumes you also tip your bank tellers, bus drivers , teachers ( with more than a shinny apple) a special tip for service when the government tax auditor does a good job (offers advice that saves you a court appearance) your doctor saves your life you give him 17% bonus ... on top of the $60 K bill ... do you slip your dentist's receptionist $5 when she fits you in at short notice

or do you just do it for workers who turn up at below minimum wage

I tip those who society expects me to tip regardless of wage situation.