Tips for early wonder races

[Yonez]

I was hoping I could get some tips from some of you guys on how to approach the early game if you're specifically going after some ancient wonders, without harming your future. I just got BtS and I'm trying out the new stuff, and I thought I'd have a go at trying to become an intercontinental trade beast with Darius of Portugal (on Noble, my comfort zone), contacting everyone first, settling colonies on around the world, that sort of thing. To help me do this, I really want to get Great Lighthouse, Temple of Artemis, and the Colossus. Because I'm not creative I've been getting Stonehenge first of all too, but I tend to get beaten to either the ToA or GLH. Colossus is never a problem on Noble, so that's fine.

Just wondering if there's a 'good' approach to early wonders? I'm roughly doing this:

- Build warrior(s) until level 2
- Build Worker
- Build settler/stonehenge, settle close
- Build new settler

Then in my new cities I'll do a similar thing, warrior(s) until level 2, but at this point I'll have 3 cities and only one worker. Is building a worker straight off the bat in a new city efficient? Also, when should I switch to slavery? I always think 'just wait 2 turns until that settler has spawned', but I'm guessing it might be best to switch asap. Also, should I bother with Stonehenge? I've always considered it a must for a non-creative leader who can't really get an early religion. Would it be better to build monuments? Would focusing on an early rush on a close neighbour still allow me to get the ones I want? Should I use a different leader? (Huayna?)

I know there's never going to be a 'do X for result Y' approach, but I'd love to hear some tips.

 

[TheLazyHase]

To help me do this, I really want to get Great Lighthouse, Temple of Artemis, and the Colossus. Because I'm not creative I've been getting Stonehenge first of all too.

In my opinion, the problem is really, really too many wonder. 4 wonder ? There's game where I build less than that for the entire game !

In any cae, your best bet is to crete some worker first, then maybe a warrior. You need a LOT of forest and worker if you really want to grab all thoses shinies.

 

[Lansky]

Quite frankly to get SH, ToA, and GLH on a difficulty that is still difficult for you a few things are needed. Mainly a very strong capital with the commerce, food, and hammers to get the technologies while still being able to expand.

On top of that build a worker first.

I'll assume normal speed because that's more familiar to me. Working unimproved tiles to get to level two is not worth it 99% of the time. Best case scenario you are working a 3f tile to grow and have another 3 yield tile to help build the worker.

At size one you have 3 extra food from non capital tiles to get the worker out.

At size two you have to feed another citizen so that's 2 less food. Best case scenario you have another 3 yield tile to help with the worker. So that gives you:
1 extra food from the original tile.
3 yield from the newly worked tile.

So you delay the worker several turns to every so slightly lower the number of turns before he comes out. Or instead of working the unimproved food resource for 20+ turns you could get a worker out in the first 15ish turns and get the improved food resource 5+ turns earlier quickly growing to size two and now having a worker right off the bat.

My math could easily be off a bit since I can't look at the game right now, but the idea still holds true. Only times that come to mind that a worker first is not best are some coastal starts or with a leader that cannot research AH before the worker is done and your only improvable food tiles are livestock related.


Finally, it is not efficient to grab that many early wonders unless you have a plan that requires them. ToA is a tough wonder to properly leverage to be worth researching Polytheism early enough to build it. Not every game can use the same wonders properly. On a water heavy map obviously the GLH is very very strong but other than that none of the wonders you want to build are required. The number of techs needed for these wonders if you grab them early would easily slow down your early expansion rate as well.

 

[Lansky]

A couple other thoughts.

Building warriors to scout and prevent barbs from being too prevelent are normally built until the capital is at least size 3 if not 4 or 5 after the worker. This is when you want to build a settler. The more improved tiles working on the settler the better. This delays your first city a little but will also speed up the rate of subsequent cities.

If you want to do a trade economy the Collosus may not be a super idea. It obsoletes with Astronomy and if you want to use said tech for trade routes then a lot of the time why bother? You also have to figure out how many water tiles you will be working. Even at 2F 3C they are a relatively weak tile when choosing between resource tiles, mines, and riverside cottages.

 

[Yonez]

Do you know, I somehow managed to forget that the Colossus obsoletes at Astronomy. I had it in my head it was at Corporation along with GLH for some reason. I just fancied trying out some new approaches (my games are quite 'samey') and I quite liked the idea of Financial + Feitora + Colossus. Also, I've never really paid much attention to trade-routes (never sure how they worked so almost always went Mercantilism in vanilla), but the ToA and GLH seemed to be pretty great combo, but thinking about that now I'd have to delay Scientific Method to get the best use of the former and I don't like doing that.

I do think I'm addicted to wonders, though. On Vanilla on Noble, I managed a few times to get all the wonders bar a couple, heck I managed the same on Prince once (though that was a GOTM with Gandhi with immediate access to Marble and Stone )

Makes sense about the worker though. I'd always considered the trade-off between extra warrior+shorter worker build times to be greater than the earlier worker, but your maths makes sense.

I suppose my question about Stonehenge remains. What's the alternative to that without a religion? Monuments, or wait until Libraries, say?

 

[Lansky]

Monuments. They require one population to whip in after putting at least one hammer into the build. Only wait for libraries if you will only work tiles in the immediate unexpanded cross for a long period of time and do not need the border pop to block land from the AI.

 

[Willem]

Just wondering if there's a 'good' approach to early wonders?

Yes, don't build them. You're better off putting those Hammers into new Settlers for more cities, along with units to escort them. I don't bother with those early Wonders anymore except in special circumstances, like starting out as Industrious and having Stone nearby. I certainly wouldn't consider going after 4 of them.

 

[binhthuy71]

The Great Library is the first Wonder I consider worth going after if I'm not Industrious and lack Stone or Marble. I even skip the Oracle: that "free" tech it grants you was bought at a bit more than the price of one Settler plus an Axeman to escort him.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I even skip the Oracle: that "free" tech it grants you was bought at a bit more than the price of one Settler plus an Axeman to escort him.

It make sense, but I still prefer the Oracle than hurring too much in city building.

Also, Oracle give a good chance at free religion + courthouse (code of law). If you have economic problems rather than production problem, it can help tremendously, I think.


Another early wonder that make sense is Hanging garden. +2 health help a little at the beginning, and a lot at the and. And +1 pop to every city is quite a reward. That's said, I will build it only if my cap have nothing better to do AND I'm pretty confident that no war will come around.

 

[binhthuy71]

It make sense, but I still prefer the Oracle than hurring too much in city building.

Also, Oracle give a good chance at free religion + courthouse (code of law). If you have economic problems rather than production problem, it can help tremendously, I think.


Another early wonder that make sense is Hanging garden. +2 health help a little at the beginning, and a lot at the and. And +1 pop to every city is quite a reward. That's said, I will build it only if my cap have nothing better to do AND I'm pretty confident that no war will come around.

I tend to be conservative with Wonders because I was addicted to them for a while. That was cured by getting tired of struggling against civs that didn't have any Wonders - just lots of Swordsmen and Catapults and Horse Archers and such.

 

[mechaerik]

The Great Library is the first Wonder I consider worth going after if I'm not Industrious and lack Stone or Marble. I even skip the Oracle: that "free" tech it grants you was bought at a bit more than the price of one Settler plus an Axeman to escort him.

i tend to build the Oracle all the time, usually in my capital. A strong second city can pick up the settler building. I consider the oracle to be better than Liberalism, because with the Oracle, you can research another tech while you're building another.


That said, The Great Library is one of my top wonders, especially because most AIs don't prioritize the upper tech path.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I tend to be conservative with Wonders because I was addicted to them for a while. That was cured by getting tired of struggling against civs that didn't have any Wonders - just lots of Swordsmen and Catapults and Horse Archers and such.

It's better to not make wonder than to make too much wonder, I agree

I see wonder as tools to handle peace period : I can't attack anyone (they are too far away, or I don't expect to be able to sustain a big enough army, for example) and I don't fear attacks (because of diplomatic situation and/or strong garrison and/or reliable ally as meatshield against opponents). That's not often.

Wonder power seem to be drastically lower than in previous civ game anyway. Long gone are the day of the civ2 pyramid (free granary in every city), sun tzu war academy (free barrack everywhere), Darwin theory (not one, but *2* free tech) or leonardo workshop (the civ2 one, the true one, that upgrade automaticly every unit for free AND was the only way to do so !!!)

 

[PieceOfMind]

Wonders can be ok to go for. You have to take them in moderation though. The GLH is one I often like to go for but I do my best to avoid crippling my expansion to get it. I'd probably usually have 4 cities going before I even start building it.

4 ancient wonders is without a doubt overkill. Perhaps you can try a game variant that almost all wonder-addicts have to do to get over their wonder addiction - that is play through an entire game (and win, ideally) without building a single wonder. Any strategy that relies on a single wonder is almost certainly a bad strategy. Sometimes the way I see it is that my strategy will change when I manage to actually build a wonder. e.g. Sometimes I'll make the Apostolic Palace my first wonder and then try and build temples and monasteries everywhere for the hammer bonus. If for some reason I lost the race to the AP, that's ok - I'd just go for a different strategy from then on.

By the way, Stonehenge and ToA are overrated IMO. GLH and Oracle are almost always worth building if you have the opportunity and it won't cripple you.

 

[andersw]

I like going for the Stonehenge.
It sort of pays back itself in terms of hammers (if not creative).
Also I'll get the first GP (wich I settle) at a time when expansion gets costly.

I seldom go for gw (I've still not dug into the spying game and settled spy's aren't as good).

I like pyramids (representation is a killer) but w/o stone or industrious it's generally not worth it.

I used to never build the GLH but after so many games in the strat forum where GLH were considered overpowered I've tried it and since I dislike pangea it's generally a very strong wonder.

I never go for religions so I never go for TOA.

Oracle is generally great.

The trick (as with most things in this game) is to build just the ones you really need.

I wouldn't consider the other wonders as early. (maybe colossus is early if you choose mc from oracle but well you don't need to hurry it since you'll have monopoly).

 

[binhthuy71]

Perhaps you can try a game variant that almost all wonder-addicts have to do to get over their wonder addiction - that is play through an entire game (and win, ideally) without building a single wonder. Any strategy that relies on a single wonder is almost certainly a bad strategy.

True. Recovering from Wonder addiction required more than one Wonder-free game for me because my Wonder spamming was a way to paper over careless gameplay. It took several games to understand what little I know of the required tile and city improvements to support specialists while also building commerce and production. That in turn led to having to consider city placement in the expansion phase of the game and city specialization throughout. It's an ongoing process.
The good news is that now I can usually get the Wonders that I really want without hurting some other aspect of my game and I can still do well most of the time if I don't get them.

 

[Willem]

It sort of pays back itself in terms of hammers (if not creative).

No it doesn't. Monuments are the cheapest building in the game which can be easily chopped or whipped if you need them. And most of the time you don't even need them. Your cities' populations are so small at first that you can't even make use of the second row of a BFC. If you place your cities properly, you can make use of any resource that you need and still have room to spare. Then you can just wait until you get a religion or build something useful like a Library. The only time in the early game where Monuments serve a purpose is when you have a border city and you want to strengthen your cultural boundaries next to a neighbour. Other than that they're a waste of Hammers. Even more so if acquire them from Stonehenge.

 

[TheLazyHase]

The only time in the early game where Monuments serve a purpose is when you have a border city and you want to strengthen your cultural boundaries next to a neighbour. Other than that they're a waste of Hammers. Even more so if acquire them from Stonehenge.

Or if you're charismatic and have happiness problem.

Same for eiffel tower : a lot more useful if you're charismatic.

 

[Willem]

Or if you're charismatic and have happiness problem.

Well yeah, that's true as well. And the Egyptian version is good if you're trying to get a Great Priest quickly in order to build a Shrine.

 

[mariogreymist]

No it doesn't. Monuments are the cheapest building in the game which can be easily chopped or whipped if you need them. And most of the time you don't even need them. Your cities' populations are so small at first that you can't even make use of the second row of a BFC. If you place your cities properly, you can make use of any resource that you need and still have room to spare. Then you can just wait until you get a religion or build something useful like a Library. The only time in the early game where Monuments serve a purpose is when you have a border city and you want to strengthen your cultural boundaries next to a neighbour. Other than that they're a waste of Hammers. Even more so if acquire them from Stonehenge.

Not entirely true.

If you are playing a civ that starts with mysticism, and have a peaceful neighbor, monuments are a great tool to establish a long border, keeping all the important resources on your side...and do it before writing. The problem with a bunch of 0 culture cities is the AI's tendency to place cities (albeit very unwisely) behind your anticipated border. If you can get 3 cities to pop their borders early (by building monuments), you can usually gain the freedom to fog-bust some backfil area and focus on sustained expansion, rather than the crash REX which I find necessary to beat the AI to every single city site I want. This is particularly helpful if you want some early wonders, as you will be doing something other than building settlers, workers and escorts in such a case.

If I don't start with mysticism (or pop it from a hut) I generally wait for libraries.

 

[Slvynn]

If i start with expansive or creative who have mining i always build worker. Always. Then chopping second one, then improving. This way you will be faster in wonder races than Industrialists if you really need special early wonder.