Tips you've learned from losing.

[CrimsonEdge]

I feel that the best tips you can give are from when you were defeated right when you were in the hands of victory but would have to go back several turns to fix the problem.

In a recent game of mine, I was going for another Cultural victory. Things were looking really good. I had some very good relations with everyone on my sliver of land (it was pangea with long strips for land) and I was ahead in military and culture. We all shared a local religion and I made sure everyones relations stayed at a decent area so I could provoke a war if it was needed.

Having Frederick, Mao, and Monty as allies you'd think I'd be safe to slack a little in military power right?

Everything was going fine untill people from other parts of the world starting coming into the picture. Saladin, Alexander, and Kublah Kahn showed up. I immediately tried to maintain decent relations with them. I was thinking on provoking a war between Frederick and Monty while having Mao and Saladin duke it out. Alexander was pleased with Mao and angry at Saladin so I figured I could also get Alexander into the fight.

My plans worked out. Everyone but me was fighting in the world. I figured I was very safe so I rushed with my cultural victory. I had plenty of time but wanted to see how quick I could pull it off. I set my three cultural cities to get culture and had my three other cities go for research, wealth, and military. My military city was a fairly small city that I had captured from culture from Monty. It wasn't the best position, but it netted me horses. It had a small amount of food and none of it was farmable at the time of capture so I was stuck with 1 food and 3 hammers for awhile.

I was pumping out military units at a "steady" rate considering how bad the town was. I was doing great and was about 3,000 culture away from a victory. One Great Artist would have won it for me. I was about eight turns from getting another great person when Alexander declares war on me.

Being a bit weak on military, I hurried all of my units to my culture cities. I saw a boat appear on shore the next turn and out popped a stack of about 10 war elephants and 3 catapults all one turn away from one of my culture cities, coincidentally, the one that's 3,000 culture away. My forces were all 2-3 turns away with me only having 4 units garrisoned. Although my cultural defense bonus was huge, his catapults and elephants were no match for my 4 units.

So, in short, if you're going for a cultural victory never think you are in the clear. Keep your military forces up and running. Research and wealth aren't nearly as important as being able to fend off an attack.

 

[Zaimejs]

Wow... that's frightening. But yeah, that's been my biggest mistake in the past. Being weak on military. I can get way ahead in technology and everything else, then I get the "Most Powerful Nations" in the world thing, and I'm PATHETIC. Suddenly, someone knocks on my door with a stack of Doom, and I'm just pathetically trying to catch up. Usually, I can resurge and beat them down, but by the time I do, I'm hopelessly behind.

Now I make sure to pump out military units at a steady pace in all cities. I usually build an improvement, then a couple of units. I have one decent city pumping out units. A catapult in every city! That's my motto for a current game that I'm playing.

Another mistake I make is not attacking soon enough... clearing land for my people when I have the upper hand and letting my neighbors build up too much. I just want to stay peaceful too long. I need to choose which victory I want early. Right now I'm booking on science, and so I'll probably end up with a space race, but I could also push for culture.

We'll see.

Good topic. Good to know.

 

[Sisiutil]

One thing I learned early on is if you intend to capture a city, make sure you have enough troops to not only take it, but to keep it.

A very basic principle, but one that is often easily forgotten in the heat of battle and the desire for conquest.

 

[Meatbuster]

I was first to found a religion, and got two of my neighbors to convert. Bad for warmonger. Especially in Aggressive AI when I attacked one repeatedly and soon my other neighbor had an excuse to declare war on me right when all of my units are on the other side.

 

[scherbchen]

fighting a land war in asia

but seriously, it´s also usually the same for me. i go into builder-mode and either

a) don´t expand early on (not even to just take one or two cities, i get so caught up in making my territory and my cities pretty that i will not be able to expand until i get infantries on prince. on monarch that peaceful approach usually costs me the game right then and there)

b) don´t build troops, usually because i´m waiting for that one tech 35 turns away and hence don´t build units that in my mind are already obsolete. of course tha AI perceives me as a weakling (rightfully so) while still researching or shortly after having gotten to that tech. but churning out those shiny new units won´t keep the enemy tides from rolling in and i have no units (and usually no money) to upgrade my pathetic few old ones.

 

[ice2k4]

Heres one that I jsut played today.

I settled on a continent from east to west, so not only would I have both shores a naval city, I would be able to cut off expansion and play out wars how I wanted them. To my North was Hapshepsut and to my south was Ragnar and Bismark took the eastern coastline all the way to the southern tip. Below Ragnar was Alexander.

First Hatshep founds Judiasm, everyone becomes Jewish. As more religions are founded each civ has his own founded religion as state (except for me because I didnt found one, I stayed Jewish.)

I pretty much beeline Gunpowder and then Military Tradition the whole game and trade for techs I need because kossaks are deadly, and its rare that one unit dies because of there withdrawralrates (with two promotions it's at 65%.)

So ALexander and Ragnar team up on Bismark and destroy his Southern half and I jump on the bandwagon and take his northen half, which barely borders me. He decides to capitulate to me with one city left.

Later I go to Ragnar and see if he is looking to attack me (hes head of the power charts by a lot) and sure enough, asking him to delcare war on anyone says "We have enough on our hands right now." I go over to my good friend Hapshet and bribe her into war with Ragnar. I close open borders with Ragnar so he cant attack Hapshet without creating galleons in the one naval city he has.

This is where I make the mistake. Ragnar is defending well so I say hey, you know what, let me turn the tables. I open borders with Ragnar and close them with Hatshep. Once h harasses her cities I declare war on her trying to take the Jewish Holy City with a few kossaks.Of course this is when Ragnar sends 5 stacks of doom. I ask him every turn while I get my kossaks to the city to attack somewhere else via diplomacy. So I go to attack and Hapshet gets lucky and has one unit remaining after the battle. Of course Ragnar takes it and now I cant fix my economy with that holy city. Immediatly Hatshep capitulates to Ragnar and he is ultra-powerful. I bribe Alexander into war with Ragnar and because he is so powerful and has hapshet (who still ahs 6 or so cities) as a vassal, he defends in 3 turns and then launches his offensice takeing a few greek cities.

Im not finished with the game, but the lesson is to stop being like Hitler and never backstab.

With Hatshep (#1 tech leader) and Ragnar (#1 power leader) fighting with Ragnar not being able to launch an offensive, I could of caught up in military and techs, but I got greedy. Oh well, lets hope I can pull off a space race.

 

[OceansEleven]

Oh yeah, DO NOT EXPAND TOO MUCH! Wow, in my China game, I had the BEST START ever on Prince! Imagine having 4 resources in your capital. Then 4 more in your second. Then just building an EMPIRE! Then, SOMEHOW, having two copper sources just pop up in your capital. I am currently... about 1,000 points ahead of everyone. Brilliant. I have four religions... all with shrines. Can you believe that? I'm so advanced, I've practially built everything, and have nothing else to build except Military. But, I'm at 90% Tech right now. I'm HARDLY ever at 90% Tech. I'm always at 100% Even with my 70 80 90 %, I have the largest tech lead.

Hahha, thing is, you should sometimes give people what they want... Only 1 person is Cautious with me. The rest... are annoyed. I do not know what to do. The Cautious guy is right next to me... and I want more land *haha*. He has the same military strength as me... but I don't want to upset him.

I gave no one anything. No 'canceling deals', no 'Could you spare this for us' , except gold, and no 'These guys are gay. Attack them?'

I should really befriend someone. Oh well. I'll just wipe more people out with my Infantry and go for Conquest or Domination.

But... Military. Expansion. Tribute.

 

[ThomasHardy]

I learned to expand so that terrain or map edge is covering most of my flanks.
It sucks to expand up the middle of the map and have enemies on all sides, with fronts that are very far apart and constantly in danger.

 

[cabert]

I learned to build (or steal ) more workers when I saw that a single barb pillager could ruin my whole empire

 

[ice2k4]

I've learned to wipe out Mansa Musa and Ghandi as early as possible. There such tech whores its not even funny. I also go after Victoria if she looks like shes going to become a runaway tech civ.

 

[Powerslave]

I've learned to wipe out Mansa Musa and Ghandi as early as possible. There such tech whores its not even funny. I also go after Victoria if she looks like shes going to become a runaway tech civ.

Most excellent advice! Any tech whore must die. And if you start next to Montezuma, attack him. Don't wait for him to attack you.

 

[Sisiutil]

And if you start next to Montezuma, attack him. Don't wait for him to attack you.

Agreed. I find the best way to do that is with a lowly warrior. Steal his Worker and then fortify your club-twirler on a forested hill in Tenochtitlan's fat cross, (preferably NOT immediately to the city). When his 10th or so Archer finally lucks out and kills him, make peace, then come back with Axemen.

 

[Jorunkun]

Great idea for a thread!

Like Scherbchen, I tend to gold-plate my empire when I should be building more units and going to war. With every level-up (currently playing immortal) I shed a few more builderish feathers, so my main learning from losing has been to stay on the offensive whenever possible.

Also, I have learned that you can defend well and even attack with inferior units, as long as you can build enough of them and use them in concentration. I used to get hammered in my first few games on immortal, but sticking it out showed me how far you can stretch your outdated military ... something I never had to do on the lower levels.

 

[cabert]

Also, I have learned that you can defend well and even attack with inferior units, as long as you can build enough of them and use them in concentration. I used to get hammered in my first few games on immortal, but sticking it out showed me how far you can stretch your outdated military ... something I never had to do on the lower levels.

that's something i learned on monarch level, and not from losing but from winning : cannons + grenadiers can very well destroy an entire civilization armed with artillery and infantry (Mansa Musa is a cool vassal btw)

 

[Jorunkun]

that's something i learned on monarch level, and not from losing but from winning : cannons + grenadiers can very well destroy an entire civilization armed with artillery and infantry (Mansa Musa is a cool vassal btw)

Interesting ... up until Emperor, tech leadership was my highest goal. I wouldn't have dreamed of attacking with inferior units - in fact I often waitred for a tech advantage before I attacked. When I began reading up on some SGs, it struck me that some players are much more aggressive then I was even on lower levels ... must be some truth to the builder vs warmonger typology I guess. Do you play aggressively in general?

 

[cabert]

Interesting ... up until Emperor, tech leadership was my highest goal. I wouldn't have dreamed of attacking with inferior units - in fact I often waitred for a tech advantage before I attacked. When I began reading up on some SGs, it struck me that some players are much more aggressive then I was even on lower levels ... must be some truth to the builder vs warmonger typology I guess. Do you play aggressively in general?

either i go for cultural after some good land grab = agressive early then try to remain powerful
or
I go for domination = agressive from the time I have my 4th axe until the end. If you really push towards domination, you often fall back (a bit) in tech because of too many cities, and too many units.

 

[automator]

My biggest lesson was my first "real" game. That is, the first game where I understood the combat mechanics, what the buildings and improvements did, etc.

This was on I think Warlord, and I was rocking out. Top of the ladder, dominating my large continent ... so I got lax. That's when I learned of the power of a religous war:

Izzy had been demanding that I accept her buddhist faith, and me, the good Jew, wouldn't change. Then, around 1600, she screamed WAR and dropped three galleons full of conquistadors and a couple rifles in the southwest corner of my empire. AHHH! She ran around destroying that corner of the globe, just razing city after city, cutting off my access to both copper and iron, as well as half my luxuries.

so I learned two lessons: 1. Relgion causes friction. 2. Calvary are a tough nut to crack.

 

[gdgrimm]

Don't you get back most of a city's culture if you retake it during it's unrest period of being conquered?

You lose all the culture buildings, but I thought there was some aspect of culture that would remain if you retook the city quick enough.

Just brought up the point, because in the OP's situation, he/she may still have been able to roust Alex from the big culture city in time to get a Culture win (albeit slower than expected).

 

[Pantastic]

Don't you get back most of a city's culture if you retake it during it's unrest period of being conquered?

The culture a city generated doesn't go away AFAIK, when you retake a city it comes back with as much culture as when it was captured, though it won't be generating much since all of the cultural buildings will be gone. The problem for a cultural victory is that you're going to lose all of your multiplier buildings, which will really slow down trying to hit legendary culture.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

lots of military power and lots of land doesnt necessarily mean you will win

I was in a prince game with Frederick, Julius Caesar, Elizabeth/victoria(cant remember) and tokugawa

anyway, i do my usual. lots of settlers, workers and a few scouts at the start
i start seeing where im positioned, then place my settlers to block off everyone, and have a lot of breathing room to grow

anyway, i just have a commerce/gp city(capital) and two oddballs. a desert commerce and a regular commerce city, and a little military city below

but the english started closing in on my military city, and pushing back my cultural border.. and taking more mines. so I concentrate on producing swordsmen, destroy the english city near my military city, then move on to the next english city(far west). But then I noticed that Julius caesar, who is on my right is getting pissed at me, so I hold the war with the english, since I got what I wanted(my military city, and a bonus city )

so I march my troops from the west to the east, where caesar is, and I start preparing. and start warring with caesar. I manage to take two of his cities, when suddenly, tokugawa(who was VERY weak in military) suddenly declares on me
i tried to hold the war with caesar, but he was refusing. so now I was in a split. majority of my army is in the east at caesar's territory. but Tokugawa is on the west(above the english, and my NW)
so I get Frederick who has pleased with me, to war with Tokugawa. But frederick is on top of me, with no land connecting him and tokugawa, so Frederick had to pass through my cities to get to tokugawa

Tokugawa was able to take 2 of my western cities when Frederick arrived there to battle with him
however, I took my chariots from the east-caesar to the west.. to protect more of my cities, villages and important resources.. like horses and ivory
so my raiding army(chariots) for caesar disappeared. i was just left with catapults, swordsmen, macemen and knights for caesar.

anyway, frederick held back tokugawa buit managed to take MY two cities..
so now, frederick had a "our close borders spark tension"
but at this time, i managed to destroy caesar
then i rushed to cavalry, and head to tokugawas remaining cities. but frederick had tanks and cannons already

anyway, since I had no chance of taking back my two cities from Frederick, i just camped my cavalry beside tokugawas cities. thankfully, tokugawa was turtling(wasnt coming out of his cities)

*A*
I just waited AND WATCHED CAREFULLY for frederick's cannons to bombard the defenses, and his tanks to reduce the defenders bit by bit. when I saw I had the chance, I sent in my cavalries and took tokugawas city right under Frederick's nose LOL!!!
i did that for two more japanese cities

but it seemed that tokugawa still had a city somewhere, since he wasnt destryoed
so i built boats to start looking for that island where tokugawa is
right now, i have probably 4/8 of the world, frederick 3/8 of the world and tokugawa 1/8th of the world

so I took my cavalries, and marched to that island(transport of course ) and I see frederick is right there with tokugawa
I have like 25 cavalries LOL ... but frederick has some 2-3 mechanichal infantry some planes hanging out in his cities.. and a few more panzers i think... and infantries(not sure.. they all look alike)

anyway, i managed to take all of tokugawa's cities.. so now I own 6/8th of the world(i put the culture slider to 100%) and tokugawa's old cities in the island started to fill up with culture.. since it was only 30 turns into the game, i thought I was going to win

so I took back my cavalries(now choppers.. forgot the name) and positioned them around my TWO cities that frederick took from tokugawa
my plan was to take those, while putting a buffer zone of other units on my borders, to prevent frederick from retalliating once I declare war on him
i was still stockpiling at 17 turns remaining

then at 16 turns remaining.. just when i was gleeful at winning superbly(lol) Frederick wins the space race... WTH!!!!
lol
i was so disappointed...

it seems that, superb military count(kinda lacking in the tech though) and massive land/culture and cities doesnt matter much
doesnt ensure your win

anyway, i loaded to an older part of the game.. wanting to outrace frederick
so now, i have ICBMs, destroyers and tanks too

then I declare war on him, and launch my ICBMs.. they get SHOT DOWN!!! LOL!!!
my MANY teched units still lost to his slightly better armaments, despite having only 6-8 battling my 20 or so units

anyway... i couldnt find a way around to win...despite having 6/8 of the world

right now, Im trying to incorporate 'high tech' army in my gameplay. instead of just massing them