TJ01: Famous Five

[TedJackson]

Good going mb

The Russians are definitely getting too big for their boots. It's a bugger that you had to sign a RoP with them to get at England

I dip my hand in the "lucky bag" and pull out a pink one, it must be Space's You're up!


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

The ROP was a bit tricky. My concern was that if our SOD got caught in their borders and we were ordered to leave that they would have been teleported somewhere silly. I think that we can wait 10 turns before taking them on anyway. Since the have their Cossacks now it may be more efficient to wait for tanks anyway.

The thing we need to think about now really is where to put the culture that will be available soon. We have Hoovers, Intelligence agency and Battlefield medicine available in the next ten turns.

We also need to compromise production a little to get the cities up to size 20.

I would definitely consider removing the Carthaginians from our continent now and maybe making a conscious effort to reduce the number of civs in the game. If we can clear the Russian/French/English Landmass the game will become more manageable. IMO we should continue the war against England and Eliminate them, and then take on the Russians and the French last.

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by TedJackson
...pull out a pink one, it must be Space's ...

pink?

Will get this tonight. Don't know if I'll play, though, I have things to do related to 'Sinterklaas' tonight. Involving rhymes.

 

[TedJackson]

Culture Summary

@mad-bax
I understand why you had to sign the RoP. It just came at the wrong time for us

We might need to send our Knight Army home, disband it and create an Infantry Army when we reach RP. I think we can reduce the Russian threat by pillaging their core with the forces we have on hand over there.

Kicking Carthage off our home continent seems like a good idea although we still have 11 turns left on a deal (made by me when I was still thinking France -> England -> Russia ).

Perhaps Space can build some more troops for that happy day when the deal expires.


Ted

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by mad-bax

I would definitely consider removing the Carthaginians from our continent now and maybe making a conscious effort to reduce the number of civs in the game. If we can clear the Russian/French/English Landmass the game will become more manageable. IMO we should continue the war against England and Eliminate them, and then take on the Russians and the French last.

Just a note from an interested lurker.

I think in this type of game you want to keep all the civs alive. Killing civs increases the the tech depreciation rate. So if you are always researching techs at 1st or 2nd, you want as many civs alive as possible, to make it more expensive for the other civs to research. If you have to buy techs now (or think you will have to later), killing civs will make your purchases (and sales) cheaper.

Since there are a lot of turns left in this game, and almost no useful buildings remaining, I would think you want a slow tech pace (ideally you, and seven crippled civs). You won't have any problem with offing someone's Spaceship, but why deal with that hassle?

You probably already knew this. I'm just waiting for the part of the game where you have to figure out "Do I sell the Temple or the Library?". Math ... mmmm

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by T_McC
I think in this type of game you want to keep all the civs alive. Killing civs increases the the tech depreciation rate. So if you are always researching techs at 1st or 2nd, you want as many civs alive as possible, to make it more expensive for the other civs to research. If you have to buy techs now (or think you will have to later), killing civs will make your purchases (and sales) cheaper.

Good point T_McC. Perhaps we'll settle for pillaging them back to the stone age

Originally posted by T_McC
I'm just waiting for the part of the game where you have to figure out "Do I sell the Temple or the Library?". Math ... mmmm

Have a look at MB1: 20K double whammy for an idea of how it's done. You might recognise a few players there from this game


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

Goals:
Build ToE and Hoover.
Build troops to be ready for Carthage when the deal expires.

Pre-turn:
I look around but I find nothing to improve.
Contemplate signing Russia vs Persia, but decide against it. We need to prune Russia as soon as we can. I agree with the lurker that we should try to keep the Civs alive for the cheaper techs.

Press enter.

IT:
Carthage moves another settler.
Fifth Wheel Hospital -> Cav.
Russia takes Nottingham.

1705AD - turn 1
Upgrade Caravel to Galleon.
Move Conubelinus to Three Cows to help construct Hoover in 3 turns when ToE comes in. I don't know whether we will first get Espionage and then wil get constructed or vice versa. So I don't take the risk and will research full blown. We have 136 in the bank and can get it in 2 turns at -70 each. Ouch. Sell around our WM, but most AI are broke so it gets us to 139... I will need to disband a unit or I can make peace with Persia and ask them to give us their 1g. This is what I do in the end.
Our impressive forces just pillage the English lands for now, will try to conquer and raze later.

IT:
Our wines deal with Russia ends, I let it.
Our deal with Cathage 20gpt for our Incense ends too, there goes my gpt plan.
First Hospital -> Cav
Fourth Hospital -> Cav

1710AD - turn 2
I've opened up our options at a price, I have to slow down Second to get ToE 1 turn later and the WLTKDs end.
Our SoD takes and razes Coventry, liberate 2gold and 6 workers, England has 2 cities left.
Make a Dyes for Horses deal with Persia, when it's their turn to be pruned we'll have Tanks.

IT:
Our deal with Cathage 20gpt for our Gems ends.
Joan wants to trade TMs, fine.
France and England end their trade embargo against us.
It's WLTKD again.
Fifth Cav -> Rifle

1715AD - turn 3
The Russians are targeting France at the moment, that's good.

IT:
Espionage comes in, start Atomic Theory.
Now the city builds complete, so I could have left it like it was.
First Cav -> Cav
Fourth Cav -> Cav
We lose a unit to jungle fever.

1720AD - turn 4
Switch Fifth to the Agency.
Move back silder to (10.0.0) for +241gpt.
More pillaging on the Russian island.

IT:
Germany and Russia sign peace.
Second completes ToE, starts Hospital.
Get Atomic Theory and Electronics, start Replaceable Parts.

1725AD - turn 5
Pillage and work.

IT:
Russia waists a lot of Cossacks on Besancon.
Pollution near First!
First Cav -> Cav
Three Cows Hospital -> Hoover
Fourth Cav -> Cav

1730AD - turn 6
Wake the leader and he helps with the construction of Hoover.
More pillaging of English lands.

IT:
Russia takes Besancon.
Cathage lands a settler and MDI.
France has a Cav near Grozny (near our gems).

Three Cows Hoover -> Factory

1735AD - turn 7
More pillaging of no man's land.

IT:
Russia takes Rouen.
Carthage offers Communism for Sci Method, errr... no!
They found a city near the Spanish capital.
Joan wants to extend the peace treaty, sure.
France takes Grozny.
First Cav -> Rifle (for upgrading)
Fourth Cav -> Cav

1740AD - turn 8
Preparing for attack of the Russians and Carthage.
More pillaging.

IT:
Zzzz

1745AD - turn 9
Our deal with Carthage is at an end, I declare!
Russadir:
4/4 Cav vs 4/4 Cav: redlines but wins.
Canon hits 4/4 Cav
4/4 Cav vs 3/4 Cav: wins unscratched, captures 2 workers.
4/4 Cav vs 3/3 Rifle: wins 2/4 left, captures and razes, 7g and worker.
Nora:
4/4 Cav vs 3/3 Rifle: wins, promotes 4/5 captures and raze, 7g.
Carthage Novo:
5/5 Cav vs 5/5 Cav: redlines but wins.
5/5 Cav vs 4/4 MDI: wins, autoraze, 8g.

IT:
Carthage kill a Musket and captures a cannon.
Carthage loses 2 Cavs but kills 1 of ours.
Russia takes Newcastle.
First Rifle -> Cav
Fourth Cav -> Rifle
Fifth Intelligence Agency -> Rifle

1750AD - turn 10
4/4 Cav vs 2/4 Cav: wins and promotes to 4/5.
4/4 Cav recaptures the cannon.
Saldae:
4/4 Cav vs 3/3 Rifle: redlines and retreats.
4/4 Cav vs 3/3 Rifle: redlines the Rifle and dies.
4/4 Cav vs 1/3 Rifle: wins, captures, raze, 4g and a ship sunk.

I fortified all ships, they all still have movement when so desired.
There is 1 turn left on the deal with Russia, there's a nice stack to play with.

 

[TedJackson]

Cracking Stuff Space

I drain my glass and look to see whose round it is. Karasu seems to still be in the loo so get your wallet out Yndy. You're up!

I'll try to update the spreadsheet before I go to bed.


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Here's the summary

Looking fine

Edit: As Space said, the RoP with Russia expires next turn so, hopfully, we can move our pillagers into England and declare on Russia without having to mess about getting them onto boats or back to France first.

I think Battlefield Medicine should be available next turn as Second Minute finishes the Hospital so First Attempt should perhaps switch to wealth this turn.


Ted

 

[Yndy]

Could someone else pay this time? I can't play this round.

 

[TedJackson]

Can you take it Northern Pike?


Ted

 

[Northern Pike]

Sure, but I won't be playing immediately. Anyone else who can speed up the game by playing and posting in the next 24 hours is welcome to do so.

 

[Northern Pike]

I apologize for producing counsels of despair rather than a played round after this delay, but as far as I can tell it's now mathematically impossible for us to reach our 5 x 20K goal. I'd be glad if someone else could demonstrate a flaw in my logic or, if necessary, confirm it. (The best hope is probably that I don't understand something about how the spreadsheet works, or that it's simply wrong.) My reasoning:

1. Our present shortfall for 2050 AD--the amount by which the projected culture totals for that year don't add up to 100K--is 11,236 cp.

2. It's 1750 AD, so there are 200 turns left in the game. (I'm 99% certain of this, but still, don't take it on faith).

3. The only culture-producing builds still available to us are six Wonders, three Small Wonders, and a research lab in each city. Specifically:

Cure for Cancer 3 cpt, Internet 4 cpt, Longevity 3 cpt, Manhattan Project 2 cpt, SETI 3 cpt, UN 4 cpt.

Apollo Program 2 cpt, Battlefield Medicine 1 cpt, SDI 1 cpt.

Five 2-cpt research labs, 10 cpt.

4. That's a total of 33 cpt, and nothing we build now is going to double in value before the end of the game. 33 cpt x 200 turns = 6600 cp (as against the needed 11,236 cp), which would be all that we could add to those unforgiving spreadsheet totals for 2050 AD even if by magic we got every remaining cultural item this turn. So it looks to me as though we're fated to fall short. Am I overlooking something?

 

[a space oddity]

To be honest I was thinking the same thing.

I'm glad you did the nescessary math. We have been too slow to reach the point we've reached now. We don't miss anything but time. There is no other way to *add* culture but buildings and time. Like you say nothing will double anymore, so I'm afraid you're right, I believe we are not going to make it before 2050AD.

Unless somebody has a brilliant idea?! Come on guys, tell your braincell to contribute.

 

[mad-bax]

I fear you are correct NP.

Unfortunately I think the tech rate we maintained was too slow, and we failed to produce enough leaders. Losing the pyramids cost us around 1500cp all on its own.

Should we carry on and see how close we get, or maybe we could allow ourselves to build another city and go for a 6 city 100K, or we could stay at 5CC and aim for a conquest win in 2050AD or something.

It was a really tough challenge which hadn't been done before and we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves.

 

[Northern Pike]

We should probably have mapped out our tech path for the first Age and a half before we started playing, with an absolute emphasis on getting to the five early cultural buildings. We certainly didn't play badly, but perhaps we didn't fight bitterly enough for every last cp.

It's counterintuitive, but might the best way to pursue this goal be with a pangaea, an expansionist civ, and barbarians on the map, in hopes of getting most of the Ancient techs free from huts?

 

[TedJackson]

Well guys,

I'm afraid NP is right. A doubling error in my 100K projection had me believing that all was well. But re-checking and just looking at the 20K figures soon made me realise that things are not

We discussed and chose the map settings to slow tech pace but it looks as if that wasn't necessarily the right decision. If IIRC we proposed Pangaea & Expansionist right at the beginning but managed to talk ourselves out of it

The question is now: what do we want to do? I think we can win by any other victory type but is there the will to do it?

Replies on a postcard.


Ted

 

[Northern Pike]

I have the will, but not the time. I'm overcommitted to succession play and hellishly busy in RL, so I'm afraid it doesn't make sense for me to persist with this game now that our original goal is unattainable--at least not for the moment. If the rest of you choose to pursue a new objective, I'd be glad to rejoin around Jan. 15.

And Ted, thanks very much for your work in setting this one up. Regardless of the outcome, this was a fine idea and an instructive game.

 

[mad-bax]

To be honest I am in the same boat as NP. Now it is clear that our original objective cannot be met I think that it would make better sense to kill this game have another go from a fresh start.

Maybe in the middle of January we could start another game using an expansionist CIV on a pangea using C3C.

There are some added cultural buildings which should make the objective a little less difficult, but without making it too easy.

 

[a space oddity]

In the end it's up to you Ted. It's your first SG and I could understand if you would want to see it finish. When I comitted to the game I comitted for the full ride. If you want to finish, I'm with you.