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TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by tjs282, Mar 24, 2017.

  1. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    I am offering my save after 9 turns, to allow the members to practice some diplomacy. You can post your results and we can decide to proceed from the most acceptable candidate.

    I have conducted a round of trading, and I will post my trading sequence later, to avoid giving away spoiler info.

    The initial situation:
    • Carthage has discovered currency and has a monopoly
    • The Arabs have already discovered Literature and have traded it to Carthage.
    • Carthage, Arabia and Byzantium have contact with each other, do not have contact with the rest of the world
    • The Aztecs have contact with the Dutch and the Ottomans
    • We are still at war with the Arabs and the Aztecs
    I will post a turn log and a strategy discussion in following posts.

    Attached Files:

  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Apr 30, 2008
    Seems like it's usually safer to research Currency before Construction. It may seem like I'm gloating, but my comment here makes it less likely that anyone will forget that after this.
  3. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    Spoonwood, I couldn't find your previous post about currency before construction, but I do prefer currency in my own games, as I like to build marketplaces.

    There was some discussion earlier in this thread that [the author] wanted construction to build an aqueduct in Copenhagen [+ Reykjavik?], and grow to size 7+ as fast as possible, for the further purpose of building military units and/or FP/wonder. I was away from the thread at the time, and the decision for construction was already made by the time I came back.

    So at the beginning of my turn set, I saw Copenhagen had just started an aqueduct and there was a stack of workers dedicated to improving Copenhagen's shield production, but there were problems looming ahead in the future at Copenhagen:

    Happiness was at +3/-3 at size 6 with 10% luxury. Assuming Copenhagen grows to size 7, we have to raise luxury or hire a specialist and then build a market as fast as possible to restore the happiness balance.

    Copenhagen had the only operational barracks, although there were several more under construction in low-shield villages. Our archer inventory had just been reduced by 40% and we were at war...

    Speaking of barracks, we were paying 1 gpt in maintenance to produce a veteran aqueduct, veteran market and veteran wonder. At least we are militaristic, so it's not as expensive as usual to sell and rebuild a barracks.​

    With 20/20 vision rose-colored hindsight spectacles. If we had discovered currency first:

    We had more than 1 city that could have usefully built a market

    We can lower the lux tax sooner, when the market(s) complete

    We gain cash flow that can be used to rush things, like an aqueduct...

    IIRC Carthage had self-researched construction (?), setting up a currency-for-construction trade about 10 turns earlier...

    We can sell or give away currency to our friends, when they have more gold they can pay us more in future trades!

  4. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007
    As far as I know, there is no definite/conclusive knowledge about whether the AI prefers Currency or Construction. (Just double checked Oystein's article in the War Academy. Both techs allow an improvement, Construction allows a Wonder, giving it 6 extra points, but Currency is cheaper, so that may balance it.E.g. assuming that Carthage was able to do Construction in 10 and Currency in 9, they would have a base value of 25.6 and 28.4 respectively) Basically it's a 50-50 chance, and we just got unlucky...?!

    As I already said: a Market affects only the third (and following) lux resource. With only two lux resources, it has no effect on happiness. That was my main reason for recommending Construction back then. Markets don't do us any good at the moment (no increase of happiness as we only have two luxes, and no increase on commerce while we are still doing max research), while Aqueducts would already be useful in a number of towns.
  5. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    The post-flight pre-flight for 550 BC (part 1):

    The war situation looked dangerous. Carthage had ended our alliance and there was no apparent way to renew it, thus Arabia would have more forces available to send in our direction.

    I expected that a barbarian invasion could/would occur when someone enters the middle ages. I like to play with raging barbarians, albeit on Monarch level, so I had something nagging at me from the back of my mind that a barbarian invasion could be really bad for us...
    A single pikeman/hoplite/numidian/legionary can soak up 20+ horse-barbs on Monarch level, but we are going to have none of those available here...

    How many spearmen are we going to need? We can build a lot more, but it is always going to feel like we don't have enough to guard our cities, guard our workers, prevent our squares from being pillaged, guard the archers that will go after the barb camps...
    And each spearman that we build is going to delay our planned berserker offensive.

    Coming back to the present, in 550 BC we see a single Arab spearman that is going to try to raid our workers and pillage us. We have to get rid of it somehow, and we also have to get rid of all of the OTHER spearmen that are going to follow it.

    Let's take a look at our combat calculator. We set it to a hypothetical situation, our veteran archer vs. their regular spearman on flat ground:

    V-Archer vs R-Spear.jpg

    What this picture means is we are going to lose 0.4 archers for every regular spearman they send us, and we are going to lose our invested shields at about the same rate as the enemy loses their invested shields (or slightly less, but they have more cities and more room to grow)

    When they send us veteran spearmen - and they shortly will do so - our winning percentage drops to 45%, and this is NOT a good situation

    But what if we use our elite archers?
    Now our winning percentage is up to 73% against the regular spearmen.
    But we will have an additional problem: our 27% loss percentage is much higher than our percentage of generating a leader from an elite victory. Therefore we are going to deplete our stock of elite fighters.

    "When a farmer loses a suckling pig through illness, he mourns not only the little pig, but also the good food he has gambled on it."
    --Aron Nimzowitsch

    to be continued...
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007
    Ok, I just tried my hands at the current save.
    First I must say: Speedbird, your zero-research approach indeed worked very well here!

    My trading results: all three scientifics got Engineering. I was able to trade it from the Osmans for Lit+Rep, and we now have 656g in the bag, Feudalism at 100% is due in 9 turns.

    However, some criticism I can't suppress...:
    • What did you build 4 Catapults for?!? Not necessary on Emperor.
    • And what on earth did you do to Trondheim?? We are paying 40gpt in unit upkeep and still have many good spots to settle. So 3-4 more Settlers from Trondheim would have been good. Now Trondheim has grown to size 7 and has 63 shields in the box, which we can only invest into a (at the moment still useless) Marketplace. Oslo has too high corruption to be run as a 4-turner, but it could do 2-turn Workers. I still want a few more Settlers and Workers from Trondheim, so we'll have to shrink it again after the Marketplace. (At +5fpt it will take 25 turns to grow from 7 to 12. With Workers we can do that in only 10 turns!)
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  7. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    Lanzelot, am I missing something here?

    Marketplace happy faces.jpg

    EDIT: Cross-posting, I will get to the catapults and science discussion but I can't write as fast as you.
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

    May 19, 2009
    here, for the job/ handout / woman
    Yes, you are -- because that Civilopedia page is poorly written. That list shows the 'total-Happyface' outcomes, NOT (as implied) the 'increased' Happyfaces with each new Lux.

    Even with a Market, the 1st and 2nd Lux still only give us 1 Happyface each, giving us 2 Happyfaces in total (i.e. no change from what we'd get without a Market). It's only after the 3rd Lux is acquired that the 'Market-effect' starts kicking in: without a Market, you would get 3 Happyfaces from 3 Luxes, but with a Market, the 3rd (and 4th) Lux each give 2 Happyfaces instead of 1, i.e. you now get (1 + 1 + 2 =) 4 or (1 + 1 + 2 + 2 =) 6 Happyfaces instead. Similarly, the 5th and 6th Luxes each give 3 Happyfaces with a Market, for (1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 =) 9 or (1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 =) 12 Happyfaces, etc.
    Spoonwood likes this.
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Apr 30, 2008

    DaveMcW's research. Though, I agree it's not definite/conclusive, the only tribe that I have ever seen research Currency before Construction is Korea. Korea generally seems to research Currency before Construction, but they make for the exception, not the rule.
  10. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007
    Interesting. However, what I find strange: I would have expected Literature to be among the 20 most avoided techs?! I have definitely seen games, where some AI did not research Literature until way into the Middle Ages...

    tjs282 has already explained it in detail, but as a picture says more than a thousand words, here two cities with and without Marketplace from a recent game of mine:

    --> Three luxes or more are needed, before the Market makes any difference.
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Apr 30, 2008
    It's pretty low in the ancient age. Also, note how many of those bottom 20 techs are either industrial age or modern age techs. Other than governments (which AIs generally DO research), it seems about right to me, and I've used it as a guide in my research based games.

    I guess it's a digression, but I'm curious about that game. Did you build Hoover's or capture it? What level and map type?
  12. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    Thank you for the marketplace explanation, tjs282 and Lanzelot. I was wrong and I have made the incorrect assumption when I was planning Trondheim.
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007
    It's from COTM130, so I can't say too much about it yet. But next Thursday (or whenever the results are published), you'll be able to download the final save of my game... if I don't miss the deadline, that is...
    I captured Sun Tsu's and built the Hoover Dam myself.
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    Spoonwood likes this.
  14. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    Post-flight pre-flight strategy discussion part 2

    This is the "short" version of my long-winded strategy discussion as of 550 BC.

    In part 1 I presented the "problem": We were not going to have the proper mathematical odds to conduct a war of attrition against the Arabs, using archers (or horsemen which are more expensive)

    In 550 BC we wanted to settle in the west and we needed to either stop the war or find a solution.
    Otherwise the territory in the west is no-man's land that is too hot for settlers & workers.
    Waiting for berserkers did not seem like an attractive option.

    I had some practice in always war scenarios, beginning with a replay of the Commando Bob always war (see the archive of training succession games under "CBob01"), and I already knew how the solution worked. I am not sure if some of the other team members are familiar with it...

    The "solution" is to pound the stuffing out of the attacking force with catapults before we finish them off with our archers or horsemen !

    When our victim has only 1 hit point left the odds are very much in our favor:

    Veteran archer vs:
    archer/warrior -- 99% win rate
    spear/sword -- 93% win rate​
    When we consider using elite attacking units, we should also realize that our chances of generating a leader are higher than the risk of getting defeated.
    I don't recall what our exact leader odds are for militaristic without the heroic epic, but let's assume they could be about 1 in 12 or 8%.
    So now we have the outline of a strategy for "farming" leaders:

    • Build a stack of catapults
    • assemble the stack of catapults with your archers in your territory
    • guard the stack with a spearman or two, so you don't lose your catapults or archers on defense
    • workers can build roads under the protection of the stack
    • add a horseman or two to the stack so you can attack the last enemy and then return to the protection of the stack
    When your enemy is strong, you can build walls in in your nearest village and put the stack there.
    When you don't have enough catapults to reduce your enemy to 1 hp you can still get them to retreat from your territory so they can heal. Use the time to build more catapults & units.
    When your enemy is not strong, you can advance your stack. It's important to have workers building roads under your stack, or on nearby squares if the worker is safe.
    How many catapults do we need?

    I would consider 3 catapults + one spear + one archer (for the defensive free shot) to be the bare minimum that I want to use to defend a threatened village. The village needs to be building walls first, then barracks or spears, then attacking units.

    For a strong defense I like 4-6 catapults in a stack + 2 spears + 1-3 archers + 1-4 horsemen

    As we get more catapults and units I may break up the stack into 2 smaller stacks, separated by 2-3 squares with a road connecting them.
    Of course, catapults are expensive in terms of rushed shields and unit support, and slow the game down in terms of our planned berserker campaign.
    But I do consider them cheaper than hand-building a forbidden palace.

    I decided to start my turn set with a military build up, as follows:

    Phase 1: rush-build catapults and send them to Stockholm
    Phase 2: rush-build spears and send them to Stockholm, Reykjavik and our new city of "whales"
    Phase 3: rush-build 2-3 horsemen and keep one in the Trondheim-Copenhagen-Birka region in case of Aztec galley landings
    Phase 4: build archers for the planned berserk-upgrades and send them anywhere, as needed

    The plan was affected by a shortage of barracks. The majority of our spears & horses and all of our archers should be veterans

    I also thought we might have needed 2 galleys available in the Copenhagen-Birka region for a sea-battle against a loaded Aztec galley.

    My military plans required a lot of gold, therefore I was determined to drastically lower the science rate and also to reverse my prior policy of avoiding technology trading to the other civs.

    I figured zero science was going to be better than low science and had planned to trade literature and/or republic + gold to acquire currency from the first civ to discover it. As it turned out, literature became already known to our expected trading partner, and I modified my strategy in the middle of the turn set, from using gold to rush a military, to hoarding gold for a currency trade.

  15. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

    Apr 20, 2015
    Here is my turn log, up to the point where we make the trade for currency.
    Post your own trading results from the 390 BC save in a previous post.
    We will take the best trading result to finish the turn set, and I will discuss handover notes in a following post.

    Spoiler :

    Turn 0 – 550 BC

    Turn off music
    Map grid on
    CivAssist On

    Review Situation:
    My number one concern is insufficient military to defend vs expected threats during next two turnsets.

    Order of Battle
    1 settler
    11 workers
    1 warrior
    5 archers
    1 spearman
    2 galleys
    1 curragh​
    Total = 22 Allowed = 7 Support = 30

    We are weak vs. everyone
    Barbarian warning near Stockholm

    City planning & micromanagement (MM)

    F1 screen at start of turn
    Income: 90
    Expenses: 99

    Science 44
    Entertainment 8
    Corruption 10
    Maintenance 7
    Units 30
    Treasury: 43 (-9 per turn)
    Currency in 11
    Trondheim: [SETTLERS] Growth to size 7 is due in 1, settler in 2; need to avoid empty granary next turn, MM worked squares from irrigated bonus grassland (BG) to unroaded river forest coast, delaying growth. Will waste shields on the settler.

    Bergen: [WORKERS] No change needed this turn, will have to watch out for forest chopping in 3rd turn

    Copenhagen: [MIXED ROLE] Growth in 18, working 2 unroaded hills, has a harbor and OUR ONLY BARRACKS (costing 2 gpt) but is committed to building an aqueduct for growth (followed by market for happiness?). Has 3 workers dedicated to improving a hill, needs further worker attention, needs strategic decision about assigned role for this city.
    edit: switch to SPEARMAN, due in 3

    Reykjavik: [GALLEYS] Has a harbor but building a barracks. Working an unimproved BG but has two workers mining an unused ordinary grassland (g) for no apparent reason. MM to work the irrigated BG that Trondheim is no longer using (+2 gpt and +1fpt). Switch production to CATAPULT in 2 turns. Can get catapult in 1 turn by working 2 forests but it would cost 5 gpt and 5 food, but I decide that option is too costly. Can rush catapult for 20g.

    Oslo: [UNKNOWN ROLE] Semi-corrupt, has a granary, can be used for workers and/or settlers, currently building a barracks in 2, working 2 unroaded forests. SWITCH 1 forest to mined g at no change in uncorrupted shields per turn (NET SPT) (+2 gpt, +1fpt). SWITCH 2nd forest to lake (+2 net gpt +1fpt); SWITCH to CATAPULT due in 3, can rush for 28g, can MM for shields next turn at the cost of 1 food + 2 net gold

    Birka: [MILITARY] working on a barracks, forest chop due in 2 turns

    Stockholm: [UNDEFINED ROLE] switch to catapult, due in 13

    Military Operations

      • Wake up wounded elite archer in Bergen and move it across the river. Since there is no barracks in Bergen it can still recover in the same amount of time.
      • Wake up v-archer in Trondheim, move it to the irrigated fur square and re-fortify. From the new square it can defend the workers near Reykjavik if needed
      • Wake up galley in Trondheim and move it 4 squares south for anti-barbarian patrol. It will not be needed to transport the next settler.

      • Interrupt one of the 2 workers next to Reykjavik and move it back into Reykjavik. Next turn it will go to the BG that was pillaged near Trondheim. Eventually this worker will support the new city of “whales”.
      • The other worker next to Reykjavik will now complete its mine in 5 turns. I eventually decide not to spend the next 8 turns for mine+road on a useless square. Interrupt it and move it to the BG west of Reykjavik (the southern BG is a more flexible choice of worker sequence, but the western BG is safer from barbarians)

      • Sell HBR to Ottomans for 26g (their entire treasury) + ROP; they are now polite. They have more territory than us so there was no value in holding back the ROP for future trades
      • Sell Polytheism to Russians for their treasury of 35g. Could have gotten ROP+alliance vs Aztecs but decide not to, we may attack them within 20 turns. They do not know the Arabs.
      • NOTE: Russia knows Netherlands & Dutch have math, so I trade with both countries to empty their treasuries.
      • Sell Poly to Netherlands for their treasury of 10g
      • Carthage does not think any deal is possible to renew alliance vs Arabs. They have 43g and Monarchy, willing to pay 43g+ROP for Literature but this is not in our interest. Note they can only be researching currency or literature, if they get currency we should be able to buy it using literature, in order to jump-start a round of trading with the scientific civilizations.
      • Aztecs have 115 gold, lack Math, Literature, Poly, & Republic. They want us to give them a tech before they will accept peace
      • Arabs have 16g & Monarchy, lack Literature, Republic & Construction (They have math). Not willing to give up Kufah. The war continues.
      • Sell Polytheism to Byzantines for their treasury of 30g. They lack Literature, Republic & Math. We have no embassy with them. They know Carthage, unknown if they have contact w/ Arabs

    Cut science rate to zero, with intention of buying currency from Carthage


      • Rush spearman in Copenhagen for 60g (also shift 3 citizens to work coast squares, +2 food + 7gpt). Reykjavik has our only barracks & I want it working on more units faster
      • Rush catapult in Oslo for 28g (because longest distance to travel. My intention is to rush catapult in Stockholm next turn.
    F1 screen at end of turn:
    Income: 101
    Expenses: 58

    Science 0
    Entertainment 9
    Corruption 12
    Maintenance 7
    Units 30
    Treasury: 56 (+43 per turn)
    Currency in --

    Turn 1 – 530 BC

    Aztec veteran galley moves next to our galley off the coast of Mexico
    Two dutch warriors move into our territory, at least they didn't block the road
    Arab spear moves onto grassland SW of Stockholm

    Copenhagen: Spear → Spear in 4. MM for shields, giving up 2 coast tiles for a BG and the new hill mine, -4gpt
    Oslo: Catapult –> ???. Due for growth next turn

    Military Operations

      • Catapult from Oslo into Bergen
      • V-archer moves to forest SE of Stockholm in order to block the enemy spear. The spear is unlikely to attack our archer (combat calculator says defender wins 75%)
      • Two wounded elite archers rest.
      • Spear from Copenhagen to Trondheim
      • Settler moves NW onto the next city site (the 4th square NW from Oslo). I considered moving SW to another hill that is CxxC from Oslo and CxxC from Stockholm, but the selected site is next to a river and offers an extra gpt before corruption. The plan for this new city is to leave it mostly undefended, and produce a worker which will improve the adjacent flood plain. I am not willing to commit extra resources to support this city.
      • warrior moves to hill square N of our settler, providing zone defense
      • reg archer leaves the settler unto the care of the warrior and moves south, seeking combat experience
      • veteran archer is no longer needed to support Reyjkavik, wakes up & moves toward Stockholm
      • Galley 1 retreats N, no point in fighting the Aztec galley. I don't know what this galley was supposed to be doing, but I don't want to send it halfway around the world when we are going to be transporting Berserks sometime in the future.
      • Galley 2 patrols our southern tundra, looking for barbs & suppressing new barb camps from appearing
      • Curragh moves 1 W, sees a barbarian galley 2 squares further W and decides to reverse course & go the longer way home

    road a BG West of Reyk. Road will be done in time for city growth.

    3 workers road the hill next to Copenhagen.

    One of the 3 workers in Dutch territory moves to an empty plain SW of Oslo. This might be a mistake.

    The next 2 workers from Dutch territory move 3 squares along our road network, there was nothing important to do near Oslo, so I am going to relocate them to the west side of Trondheim river. Note I rejected a forest chop near Oslo because Oslo has a granary & doesn't need a barracks or aqueduct & can't build a marketplace yet.

    worker from Reyk to the pillaged BG

    road an empty plain N of Bergen, the square is not important but the worker was already on it.

    City management:

      • Rush a catapult in Stockholm for 48g
      • Bergen doesn't need to work the horse pasture so I switch to a roaded river grassland & give the horses to Oslo
      • Birka will receive 10 shields from a forest chop
    F1 check: 41g + 35gpt at 90% tax 10% lux
    F2 check: can now trade for Dutch silks

    session break –

    • Trade furs to Dutch for silks. The alternative was to trade them construction for silks
    • Give Russia math for free, they are now gracious.
    • Aztecs have 116g & not accepting peace for 51g. They lack Math Literature Polytheism & Republic
    • Arabs have 18g + Monarchy, lack Literature Republic & Construction. They do not have iron or horses.
    • Carthage has 46g + Monarchy, knows only Arabs & Byzantines lacks Literature
    • Byzantines: 3g (=3gpt) lack Math Lit & Republic
    • Ottomans: 5g (=5gpt) lack Iron Working Writing & Math. No galleys coming from them anytime soon, we should have a monopoly on contacts
    F1: Reduce luxury to zero; we have 51g+44gpt at zero science. We can do currency in 10 turns at +1gpt or 9 turns at -7gpt. I keep science at zero, against the wishes of the team.

    Finally, wake up the v-archer N of Reyk & move him to guard the worker W of Reyk. This archer will be committed to barb suppression in the tundra & not available as a reserve vs Arab or Aztec invasions.

    Turn 2 – 510 BC
    Forest harvest, 10 shields to Birka, now rax in 4
    Aztecs ask for peace + math
    Arabs: 2 archers appear; spear moves N onto hill (going after our distant unguarded settler?)
    1 barb appears near Arab archers
    barb galley chases after our curragh
    Aztec galley chases after our galley
    2 Dutch warriors move onto our road network near Oslo
    We get a palace expansion

    Trondheim (Size 5): settler → settler. Growth in 3 after MM to work the tobacco.
    Bergen (6): worker → worker. Size 6, growth in 2 @ +5fpt after MM. Will let Oslo work the horses.
    Reykjavik (3): catapult → catapult due in 7. Can switch to veteran galley if catapult is not needed
    Stockholm (2): catapult → barracks due in 10. MM citizen to help carry logs from the forest to help build the barracks. (Forest chop due next turn, we don't want the shields to go to Bergen)
    Aarhus (1) is settled in the north, gets a free temple & works the unimproved flood plain. Making 5gpt -2 lost to corruption = 3 net gpt + unit support. Growth in 7, start a worker due in 10. My policy is “Ask not what our country can do for Aarhus, but what can Aarhus do for our country”.
    Birka: 3 more turns to the barracks after forest chop, making only 1 spt a barracks is not going to be useful, switch to catapult & rush for 12g

    Military Operations:
    Catapult in Stockholm takes 1hp off the Arab spear
    Southern galley spots a barb camp. Archer advances toward camp, now 3 squares away.
    Wounded elite archers rest.
    Settler + spear move W-W from Trondheim, towards the whales. I send a catapult with it, although I don't like to split up the catapult stack, I think our next city is going to need some extra help
    Archer moves to plain south of Stockholm, hoping to decoy Arab archers away from our settler
    Archer moves from Aarhus toward the unguarded chopping-worker
    Warrior enters Aarhus
    curragh & eastern galley retreat into Ottoman & Dutch territory, respectively

    road BG west of T'heim
    road plains next to Oslo
    road new grassland next to Copenhagen
    2 workers cross river
    new worker goes to forest E of Trondheim for road/chop

    F1 check: 83+40gpt, decide not to rush anything else but keep accumulating gold for a possible currency trade. Although, we need at least 1 more spear & 2 horsemen & we have only 1 operational barracks in Copenhagen
    F3 check: support cost = 38 gpt
    F4 check: Arabs willing to give us 20g + 1 slave for peace
    F7 check: HG under construction in Carthage & Damascus(Arabs); Lighthouse under construction in Amsterdam Teotihuacan (Aztec) & Theveste (Carthage)

    Turn 3 – 490 BC
    Dutch warrior wakes up & kills an Arab archer (!)
    2nd Arab archer kills the Dutch warrior and is promoted to elite w/ 2hp remaining, in a forest next to our v-archer
    3rd Arab archer appears & kills the barb warrior
    Arab spear w/ 2hp retreats parallel to Stockholm

    Birka (1): Catapult → harbor (?) due in 30, this town is only going to have 1 spt for a long time

    Russians are building the Statue of Zeus in Novgorod (size 1 in jungle with 1 BG)
    Arabs have discovered literature & are building the Great Library in Mecca
    CivAssist tells me Arabs have traded literature + gold to Carthage for construction

    Military Operations:
    Catapult takes another hp off the Arab spear
    v-archer attacks & kills the elite Arab archer in a forest, at the cost of 1hp
    r-archer climbs mountain next to Stockholm
    r-warrior climbs mountain next to Aarhus
    archer SW of Reykjavik advances & spots a 2nd barbarian warrior + a barb galley
    settler spear + catapult advance to next city site
    1 healed e-archer + catapult advance west
    both galleys & curragh move towards home
    Our e-spear in Stockholm can attack the 1-hp Arab spear in the forest, 81% chance of success but if we fail we lose the city, so our spear does nothing

    start forest chop near Trondheim instead of roading first. Unfortunately no guarantee of getting currency before the chop completes, will use courthouse as a prebuild for market in Trondheim
    worker stack completes road next to Copenhagen, I break up the stack sending 1 worker to the next hill & 2 workers to mine the BG
    irrigate river plains between Bergen/Stockholm & road another
    advance to S. of Stockholm

    Switch Trondheim to courthouse
    Switch Copenhagen from spear to horse, as the situation looks better in the West
    Decide to leave Reykjavik on catapult but considering switch to galley
    MM Stockholm from river plains to river forest +1spt barracks due in 3 growth in 19. Not working the unimproved BG because we are now committed to accumulating cash for currency
    Oslo will have a 3-shield overrun on worker, decide not to change anything because the alternative costs gold

    F1: 125+40; can do currency in 9 @ -13gpt but I think we have to stay the course at 100% tax.

    Turn 4 – 470 BC
    3 more Arab archers appear
    Arab archer kills a barb in the fog
    Arab spear retreats to safety outside our territory
    Amsterdam completes the Great Lighthouse

    Bergen (6) worker → worker in 2, MM to synchronize growth; alternative was to make settler in 5
    Oslo (6) worker → worker in 3, needs to reduce food in a future turn to synchronize growth. Alternative was to make settler in 6 sacrificing gold, but we are on a cash run
    Stavanger is founded & starts a barracks due in 10, farming in the ruins of Arnhem
    Copenhagen: switch from horse to spear due in 1 turn, because of the barbarian problem at Reykjavik

    v-archer kills a barb but loses 1hp and there is a horse-barb in the camp
    A stack of 1 spear 2 archers + 2 catapults is assembled S of Stockholm, leaving the city undefended to entice the Arabs to go there instead of Stavanger
    e-archer is healed & goes to halfway between Stockholm & Stavanger, in case the Arab stack goes towards Stavanger.

    new worker crosses river from Bergen
    new worker goes to forest N-NW from Oslo

    F1: 167+45, can do currency in 7 @-20

    Turn 5 – 450 BC
    horse-barb doesn't attack our archer but tries to sneak towards Reykjavik.
    Arab stack of 3 archers goes towards Stockholm – on flat land next to our stack
    Arab 1-hp-spear thinks Stockholm is up for grabs & moves onto forest next to our r-archer that came all the way from Aarhus (there is also a horse-barb next to this archer)

    Copenhagen (6) Spear → horseman in 6. The horseman can be switched to aqueduct as the food bin will be full in 4 turns
    MM Stockholm for commerce due to shield overrun on the barracks, but it has no effect

    r-archer attacks 1hp-spear in forest, (81% success), promotes to veteran
    3-hp archer attacks 2hp-horsebarb in forest (84%), promotes to elite now 4/5 hp
    2 catapults take 1hp each off of 2 Arab archers
    e-archer vs 3-hp archer (94%): wins, -2hp now 3/5
    e-archer vs 2-hp archer (98%): wins, -3hp now 2/5
    3hp v-archer vs 2-hp archer (87%) takes 1 hp off the Arab but dies
    e-spear vs 2-hp archer (87%): our breakeven % is 20/(20+16) = 55%, good enough so we attack, we win no damage
    replacement spear goes to Trondheim
    southern galley is not needed to pick up the replacement spear so it goes back around the tundra, heading to Stavanger & almost rams a barb galley

    F1: 212+48
    F4: Arabs want 120g or a tech for peace

    Turn 6 – 430 BC

    horse-barb kills our 2-hp archer in forest next to Stockholm
    our galley sinks the barb galley but we lose 1hp
    Arab 1-hp archer attacks Dutch warrior next to Stockholm, Arab dies
    Dutch horseman moves onto a square that I wanted to send a worker to

    Bergen: worker → worker. The governator is putting a citizen on the forest & we have to MM to keep Bergen on track
    Stockholm: Barracks → archer due in 10

    our stack moves into Stockholm to heal & also defend against the horse-barb
    Curragh (1hp) runs into an Aztec galley at the strait between Dutch & Aztecs. With a barb galley behind us I elect to stay in the sea, a 50% chance of sinking is better than combat

    Workers (actions not recorded)

    Turn 7 – 410 BC
    Aztec galley kills the barb galley that was chasing our curragh. Aztecs will make contact w/ Ottomans next turn
    Dutch warrior kills the horse-barb that was threatening Stockholm

    Oslo: worker → settler in 6, time to make settlers again, MM to slow growth
    Copenhagen: switch to aqueduct since the military situation has stabilized
    Reyk: switch to galley
    Trondheim: receives 10 shields from forest chop, grows to size 7, hire a tax man to prevent a riot

    warrior finds the barb camp near Kufah
    archer is next to the barb camp in the tundra
    our curragh returns through the strait

    F1: 305+50
    Price of currency has gone down: can get it in 5 turns @ 80% science -28gpt

    Carthage knows currency & will sell it for 298g + 34gpt
    Arabs have 4g up Monarchy down republic & have a worker for sale
    Sell Math to Byzantines for 19g (all their gold), they lack construction + currency
    Sell Iron Working to Ottomans for 35g (all their gold), they lack writing + math

    We delay the currency trade by 1 turn so we can wipe out the barb camps before the uprising

    Turn 9 – 390 BC
    1 Arab archer appears one square east of Kufah
    Russia informs us that we have violated their territory. We say we were conducting routine training missions

    archer disperses barb camp +25g
    warrior disperses barb camp +25g

    Our two spear + catapult stacks link up into one square
    Our eastern galley returns Birka & our southern galley moves into position to pick up our archer next turn & take it to Stavanger.
    Our curragh is through the strait and it will have a safe route home, as long as it avoids the Aztec coast. [EDIT:] recommend fog-busting Dutch bay to extend our sea-trade route

    End session & save

    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007

    Do you know, how the 4-turn settler factory works?? Trondheim's MM was perfectly set up for the Settler to finish on growth!! Here is a screenshot of Trondheim in 550BC, the turn you are talking about:


    Trondheim grows, picks up the forest for two additional shields, completes the Settler instantly and drops back to size 5, the Granary half-full.
    Come on, if you have played with CommandoBob, you should know basic stuff like this!? And if you didn't know this, why didn't you ask? I have said so many times in this thread: if anything is unclear, just ask. We have been talking in this thread so many times about Trondheim running as a 4-turner, that if it appears to you it is not working, you should ask us how to make it work!!
    Now you have messed up our settler pump and wasted food and shields. :(
    Edit: and do you see now, how important the "pre-action plan" is in an SG? If you (like anyone else) had posted yours before starting to play, this beginners mistake would surely have caught the attention of someone else and could have been avoided.

    I don't think there are any serious threats to be expected. Even when the Arabs threw 5 Archers and a Spear at us, choxorn had no problems to handle that with our current forces. I don't think, the 4 catapults are worth the 8gpt we are paying for them. I'd much rather have 4 more Archers. Even if we lose one or two, the remaining ones can still be upgraded to Berzerks, but the Catapults will soon be completely useless.
    And we also have help from the Dutch, so I don't think the situation was already so desperate as to build (and even cash-rush!) Catapults?!


    Excellent attention to deetail! :goodjob:

    But you didn't tell the most important thing: how did your trade round go? As I said, in my attempt all three scientifics got Engineering (not perfect, but could have been worse...), I was able to get it from the Osmans, got my gold back from Carthage and now have 565g in the treasury, Feudalism due in 9. (And Invention probably about the same.) So in 20 turns we can have Berzerks. Top priority for these 20 turns is now Workers! And Aqueducts in those 4 towns that need it. We should push our complete 1st ring to 12, before the GA starts. That means 2-turn Workers from Bergen and Oslo, a few more Settlers and then a few more Workers from Trondheim, and then we can lift off...:queen:
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  17. robbus

    robbus Warlord

    Sep 4, 2005
    Why is town size 7 a problem.... I see it negates the granary but don't remember seeing this in the "rules".
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Apr 30, 2008
    The amount of food it takes to grow changes once you hit size 7. Consequently, it generally works out as better to produce settlers and/or workers below size 7.
  19. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Jun 25, 2007
    Of course you are right, that the grassland is not as important, and the BGs should be improved first. But I guess those two workers had been chopping a forest on that tile, and the previous player probably thought, "while we are here, we may as well improve that tile, then we don't have to come back later. Reykjavik is going to be a power house, so the tile will be needed eventually".
    In any case, as there were only 2 turns left on that mine, you may as well have let it finish?!
  20. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

    May 19, 2009
    here, for the job/ handout / woman
    The problem is that a Settler-pump does not work efficiently at Pop7 and above. And while there is still space to Settle, it does not make good sense to turn Trond off building Settlers, which it was doing just fine.
    Specifically, a Pop6-Gran stores 10f, and a Pop7-Gran stores 20f. On growth from Pop6 to Pop7 this is not an issue, since a full Pop6 food box (Gran-storage plus new harvest) exactly fills the Pop7-Gran. However, the reverse is not true on shrinkage: the game is programmed such that any excess harvested/ stored food not needed to fill the (now shrunken) Granary, is simply discarded -- and that's food which could otherwise have been used to grow a neighbouring town(s) faster.

    When a Gran-town is set up -- like Trondheim -- as a Pop5-7 'no-frills' 4T Settler-pump under Republic (i.e. irrigated (B)Grass only, no food-bonus tiles*) it is easy to manage, and wastes nothing (4T@5FPT = 20f; 2T@6SPT + 2s + 2T@7SPT + 2s = 30s -- including the IBT-shields obtained on growth!)*. See Lanzelot's example-screenshot above. However, at Pop6-8, when the Settler is built and the town drops back to Pop6, it loses half its stored food, which then has to be replenished to reach Pop7 again.

    Spoiler Details, details :
    Using the no-frills pump, this will take at least 2T, and the town will then still need at least another 3T (@7FPT, wastes 1f) EDIT: 4-5T, to reach Pop8, building its Settler in 5T (at 5-6SPT). To put that into context, to get +7FPT net at Pop7 requires 21FPT total from 7 tiles, e.g. city-tile (2FPT, 1-2SPT), plus 5 irrigated (B)Grass (=15FPT, 2-5SPT), plus 2 mined (B)Grass (=4FPT, 2-4 SPT); if you can't do 7FPT, and instead stick at 5FPT, Settler-production will slow to EDIT: 1 every 7-8T. (If you had enough SPT available, you might instead consider building EDIT: a couple of 20s units in 6T from Pop6 to Pop7.5, then a Settler over the next 3-4T up to Pop8. But the unit would only be a regular, unless you also built a Rax -- which would then stand useless while the Settler completes).

    Either way, running a 'minimum-overrun' production-cycle at Pop6-8, you are likely going to need to do (a lot) more MM, you are not going to be able to produce Settlers as quickly, and you are still going to waste (stored) food on a regular basis. Not to mention, at Emp+, keeping your citizens from rioting all the way through the cycle is going to be more difficult during the early stages of the game (i.e. before multiple Luxes have been obtained and/or a Market has been built), when you most need the pump working at maximum capacity, and minimal LUX%-spending.

    *Settler-pumps sited on Floodplains are a whole different kettle of fish...
    Last edited: May 15, 2017

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