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TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by tjs282, Mar 24, 2017.

  1. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Huh? With a granary to grow from size 7 to 8 you need 30 food. To grow from size 8 to 9 requires 20 food.
     
  2. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    That was probably the reason why they were there, but I honestly don't really remember.

    But yeah, why not let it finish? Reykjavik will need that tile eventually, it's not as useful, but it's not "useless." I get wanting to fix the BG near Trondheim, but it wasn't really a pressing concern, because it could grab another irrigated BG from Copenhagen, which didn't need to grow fast while it was building an Aqueduct.



    WHY? We need Copenhagen to build the Aqueduct, or it won't grow any more. I get that it has our only Barracks, but every other city except Trondheim and Bergen was building Barracks at the time and could soon start building military. Why stop the Aqueduct build? We really didn't need the additional Spearman that badly, but stopping the Aqueduct could really set back Copenhagen's growth.

    I really don't understand why you wouldn't want to build any Barracks at all, when you were so worried about military. We're Militaristic, and we're playing a game where we want to do a lot of fighting. We want to build plenty of Barracks for Veteran units. And why a Catapult in Stockholm, when I was having workers cut a forest there specifically to get the Barracks done faster?

    You made a ton of switches at the start, without ever consulting us about anything or saying "Hey, this is what this is doing right now, I think we should do something different"




    Then why not build more Barracks elsewhere, instead of forcing Copenhagen to work on units when it really badly needs an Aqueduct???

    Also just as an aside, you're on turn 8, not turn 9.
     
  3. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Speedbird, your set is very troubling to me. Teamwork is key in a succession game, and you completely ignored that principle.

    First off, you didn't post a preflight. That's crucial for making sure that everyone is on the same page. Second, you ignored the strategy discussion in the thread before you played. Third, you did the exact opposite of several things that the team had agreed on.

    Playing that way is a good way to wreck the game for your teammates.
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    So you're saying that the 20f accumulated at Pop6 doesn't all go into the Pop7-Gran? If that's so, it makes allowing a would-be Settler-pump to reach Pop7 an even worse mistake than I described...
     
  5. robbus

    robbus Warlord

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    I am trying to keep up here....:crazyeye::confused::)
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Speedbird, you are really a miracle to me. The idea with zero-science and letting Carthage do Currency for us was brilliant, I see that now. Learned something for my own games here.
    But some of the other things...?! :confused: With a proper pre-game action plan, the team would probably have caught and prevented the most basic mistakes (like messing up our settler pump and then stopping it completely when we still have so much land to settle quickly, interrupting worker jobs, building Catapults, aborting Barracks, aborting Aqueducts...)
    The next player will have to do quite a bit of "damage-control"... Who is next by the way?
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    I believe it should be Tusker? Especially since he's just finished laying waste to the Egyptians in LKT's Mayan-CCM game. Now he can do the same to the Arabs in ours...
    I am also 'wondering' what to make of you, Speedbird. You are apparently switched on and careful enough to make complex economic calculations/ predictions, use spreadsheets for planning Worker-jobs (which I freely admit I don't do -- I hate MS ExCel!), combat-calculators for planning campaigns, etc., yet you still seem ignorant of some 'standard' gameplay tactics (e.g. not spending shields on full-price Temples in militaristic games ;) ) and fairly fundamental game mechanics (e.g. IBT-shields on growth in high-FPT towns) that I would expect an Emp player to know...

    So which is it? Are you a Monarch trying to keep up, or a Demigod who's slumming it? ;)
    Me too, sometimes ;) But don't feel obliged to read/follow every word of (my) Walls'O'Text(TM) -- I do tend to blather, and I am also enjoying (re)learning stuff from Deities like Spoonwood and Lanzelot :worship:

    Actually, that's one of the reasons I like (following) SGs, because almost everyone gets to learn something new doing it -- even Lanzelot, apparently! :lol:
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  8. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I wouldn't be so generous. Zero science is a valid strategy, but it's not what the team decided on. In particular here, it funded catapult rushes at the cost of getting Currency 1-2 turns later than self-research would have allowed.

    Really, the best strategy would have been to research Currency before Construction - we'd have been halfway through Invention right now with that approach. However, the team consensus was to research Construction first to avoid the risk that an AI wouldn't research it fast enough. With that in mind, selling techs for cash to fund more research is the way to go. We're researching faster than the AIs overall.

    Edit: or rather, we were before speedy turned off research!
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    No... er yes that's what I mean. Let me speak clearly. You only get 10 of that food when the city grows from size 6 to 7. Load up an old game to test this. Maybe there's some 1000 BC in the HoF somewhere that has a good example. Maybe one of the huge histographic games?

    Edit:

    Alright, here we go. Screenshot one, note the date of 975 BC:

    upload_2017-5-10_18-26-45.png

    And here's 950 BC. Note that there only exists 10 food in the box:

    upload_2017-5-10_18-27-55.png

    The food kept from the granary thus does NOT get based on what the size of the city grew to. But rather the size of the city that it grew from. In other words, the size of the city on the turn when it grew.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  10. robbus

    robbus Warlord

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    I thought that under despotism you could only produce 2fpt per square?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  11. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Robbus, that's mostly correct. Under despotism, any tile making more than 2 food or 2 shields or 2 commerce gets a -1 penalty on production. So irrigation doesn't help on grassland tiles - you get 3 food -1 =2 food.

    But a wheat gives a +2 bonus to food! So a grassland with wheat gives you 4-1 = 3 food, back up to 4 with irrigation.

    Then things get even better in Republic, of course :)
     
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  12. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Huh, I always thought it totally emptied, I didn't realize you got to keep 10 of it.
     
  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    There are those who call me...

    Tuskerkhamun!

    :egypt:
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  14. robbus

    robbus Warlord

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    but in spoonwoods screen shot he is producing and keeping 22 food plus all shields and all commerce under despotism. I don't see the penalty but maybe I should move this conversation elsewhere...
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    He, and myself, talked about the extra food, not the food per turn.

    Granaries usually give you half of the food needed to grow to the next size. But, that doesn't happen at size 7, because you only keep half of the food in the box from the previous size. That consists of what others have called a "penalty".
     
  16. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

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    Trading results:

    1. Lanzelot got currency, monarchy, engineering & 656g (no debt?)
    2. I got currency, monarchy, engineering & 659g whilst owing 8 gpt to Carthage

    Spoiler Step-by-step trading details :

    1. sell construction Dutch for 156g
    2. sell construction Russia for 38g
    3. buy currency Carthage for 640g + 15gpt
    4. Give Ottomans 5 required techs, they get engineering
    5. Give Russia currency, they get engineering
    6. Sell Byzantines construction for 2g
    7. Russia wants Republic Literature 14g+13gpt for Engineering, no thanks
    8. Osman wants Republic + Literature for Engineering, no room for haggling so we make the deal
    9. Sell engineering to Carthage for 643g+7gpt & Monarchy
    10. Sell currency to Byzantines for 2g, give them construction, they get engineering & are gracious

    Note: my last trade was unlucky that they got engineering & probably unnecessary, if they got something else we could trade for it but none of the other civs have something valuable to offer it. I now think it would have been better off to let Byzantines stay backward in technology.


    Settlers:
    I deliberately shut off the settler factory in Trondheim, with the intention of building market + wonder. At the time (490 BC) I didn't have a good place to send the settler due to Arab & barbarian activity, lack of roads & lack of escorts. I chose Oslo as the replacement settler factory because Bergen is less corrupt and it's always at size 6 whilst producing workers. I thought it would be a simple procedure to just spend some gold every 4 turns to buy a settler every time Oslo is about to grow to size 7 but now I am not sure how much gold we want to spend on this.
    We can convert Bergen from a worker factory to a settler factory by rushing a settler when Bergen is due to grow to size 7 and then working the mined bonus grassland that is currently assigned to Trondheim.
    We can also re-convert Trondheim back to a settler factory by rushing a market or letting Trondheim build the market naturally.
    I would recommend doing at least one of the above options to get two settlers produced quickly, as we have discovered a second wheat field in the west, and we want to get there before the Russians do.

    Catapults:
    ... should be brought back to Stockholm or Stavanger and upgraded to trebuchets

    Handover notes:
    1. A market in Trondheim costs 148g this turn and would improve income by 12 gpt (i.e. current income is 27 gpt, subtract 2 gpt from the tax man = 25 gpt and 50% of 25 rounded down = 12). It's not economical to rush it right now because it's due in 5 turns and 5*12 is only 60g. But I recommend we rush it anyway within the next 2 turns, and get a settler on the way to somewhere.

    2. I had set Copenhagen on aqueduct, but I think it should be switched to horseman because it has a barracks. There is a worker building a road on the 2nd hill and 2 more workers nearby, when the road is complete all 3 workers can do a mine on the hill, then Copenhagen will have more shields for aqueduct/market/wonders

    3. Reykjavik is building a galley which can either be used for tundra fog patrol (i.e. suppressing new barbarian camps), or join the fleet at Birka & wait for a loaded Aztec galley to sink.

    4. Our curragh should bust the fog in Dutch bay. This would extend our coastal trade network to the Ottomans, as soon as the Ottomans build a harbor we can buy iron and wines. Keep in mind the trade route can be disrupted by barbarian galleys, Aztec galleys and war with the Dutch, so we shouldn't send resources to the Ottomans or we would get a bad trading reputation.

    5. We have a spear between Stavanger and Reykjavik. I recommend sending it to Reykjavik for defense against any new barb camps.

    6. We have a galley next to the tundra, which should pick up the archer next turn.

    7. There is an Arab archer 1 square east of Kufah.
     
  17. Toxicman007

    Toxicman007 Custom User Title

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    Lurking this thread has taught me more about civ3 than I've learned in the past few years! Thanks guys for being descriptive (and better than me)! <3
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I need to double-check when I get home, but I think I paid something like 22gpt to Carthage and got only 17gpt back. So a "debt" of like 5-6gpt. All in all it seems, there is not much difference in our two trade rounds. (I first gifted up all three scientifics, before deciding on which deal to take. But in the end I also ended up trading with the Ottomans, as they had the best price.


    All this had been discussed by the team: we had Galleys in place to send Settlers quickly to the planned tundra towns. We also had units close by to protect a Settler against barbs if necessary.

    I vote for the following:
    Let Market in Trondheim complete normally by working high-shield/low-food tiles. We can get it to 10spt, then, when it has 73s in the box, rush 7 shields via Courthouse and complete the Marketplace in two more turns. So with an investment of only 28g, the Market can complete in 3 turns from now. Afterwards build a settler in 3 turns, and the Settler factory will be back on track.

    Copenhagen and Reykjavik: Aqueduct

    Catapults: let's not sink even more resources into them by upgrading them. Let's disband them to speed up the Aqueducts, then we get at least 20 of the 80 shields back (damage control) and won't have to pay 8gpt for them...

    Bergen and Oslo: 2-turn Workers

    Stockholm and Stavanger: Archers and Horsemen.
    Once Copenhagen and Reykjavik have completed their Aqueduct, they can also start unit production, and then Stavanger (and Birka) can do their Aqueduct. We really need to hurry now, because if everything goes well, the GA will start in ~20 turns. And we should have the first ring at size 12 by then, so that means: Aqueducts and Workers, Workers, Workers...
     
  19. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    BTW: when did we build Barracks in Copenhagen?! I just checked the saves, and it must have happened between the 1000BC and the 550BC .sav... Wasn't Copenhagen supposed to build our Navy? This game is strange indeed: we build Barracks in our worker-pump and in our Navy town, (towns which will never in their lifetime build a single military unit...), but in those towns where we actually want to build military, the Barrack projects get changed to something else... :crazyeye:
     
  20. robbus

    robbus Warlord

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    Dear Lanz: Your contributions to this game are significant and thoughtful.

    I am a history "buff" (although I HATE that term) and enjoy CIV3 precisely for the uncertainty of it all. Think of it as the fog of war. Many campaigns throughout history have failed because of divided leadership.

    The three most successful generals (Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon) had unified command. Napoleon failed partly because his subordinates did not follow instructions leading up to waterloo.

    Hannibal failed at zama but had defeated divided Roman leadership at Cannae.

    Remember this is a secession game. It is by definition divided leadership. I am personally deriving tremendous benefit from this secession game... I may never graduate to Emperor but I can still tell my grandchildren : "I fought with LANZELOT!" and (Speedbird, Choxorn, Nathiri, Elephantium, TJS282 ...

    Many sincere thanks for your comments:goodjob:.
     
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