TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Lanzelot]

You also started mining a plain near a city with some forests and some hills. I think that irrigation would work out better for that tile, though maybe there's more to it.

"Mine green, irrigate brown"... Can't go too wrong, if you follow that rule... (At least during the "growth phase".)

 

[Lanzelot]

Pre-flight:
Switch Reykjavik to Galley.
Switch Oslo to Archer and set it up for +5fpt. Archer will still finish in 2 turns, as we'll pick up a forest on growth.
Set science to 0%
Sell Math to Russia, Byzantines and Ottomans for a total of 91g, including RoP for Russia and Ottomans. They both go to "polite".

Turn 101, 530BC:
The Byzantines start SoZ
Trondheim: Settler -> Settler.
Road connection to Amsterdam gets finished, so we sell furs for silks and 8g. Reduce Lux to 0%.
Move Archers towards the advancing Arab Spear. I'll just block it from now and send him around in circles, until the first horse is ready?!

Turn 102, 510BC:
Bergen: Worker -> Worker
Oslo: Archer -> Worker

Turn 103, 490BC:
Forest chop finishes Barracks in Stockholm, start an Archer.
Russia starts SoZ, the Arabs start the GLib.

Aarhus founded by the Whales, starts Harbor.
Stavanger founded, starts Worker.
Oslo needs a little cash rush to finish the Worker, as a shield is missing this turn.
Sell the Osmans Writing for 15g.

Turn 104, 470BC:
Bergen: Worker -> Worker
Oslo: Worker -> Worker
Amsterdam completes the Great Lighthouse!

Turn 105, 450BC:
Trondheim: Settler -> Settler
Reykjavik: Galley -> Aqueduct
Birka: Barracks -> Horseman

Turn 106, 430BC:
Montezuma calls us and is willing to make peace, if we give him Mathematics. Yeah, fat chance...
Interturn some fighting happens, the Arab Archers kill some Dutch Warriors, but remain wounded within the rage of our Archers, and a Dutch Horseman comes along and kills that Arab Spear, that started to become annoying...

Bergen: Worker -> Worker
Oslo: Worker -> Worker (meanwhile the last missing irrigation for Oslo had been finished, so Oslo now has enough shields to operate as 2-turner proper.)

Vet Archer kills 1/3 Archer and promotes to elite.
El Archer kills 4/4 Archer.

Odense founded, starts "something".
Sell the Osmans Philo for 15g.

I need something for barb control in the tundra, so I rush the Horseman in Birka for 116g. The two Galleys are set up so they can transort the horse next turn from Copehagen to Reykjavik or Odense as needed:

Turn 107, 410BC:
An Aztec Galley sinks our 1/4 Curragh, oh well.
Birka: Horseman -> Horseman

Carthage knows Currency, But as I first want to extinguish the southern barb camp, I don't trade yet.

Turn 108, 390BC:
Bergen: Worker -> Worker
Oslo: Worker -> Worker

Two Archers (el and vet) attack two 3/3 Arab Archers. The elite wins, the vet dies.

Turn 109, 370BC:
Bergen: Settler -> Settler

Sell the Osmans Iron Working and Code of Laws for Monarchy and 16g.
Darn, our planned fish town side is blocked by a barb horse.

We can't wait any longer, as the risk of getting our Rep/Lit pair invalidated gets too high, so I now make the deal with Hannibal. We'll have to use the "party-town approach" for getting us through the uprising...

Buy Currency for 432g + 26gpt.

Gift the Osmans up: they get Monotheism.
Sell/gift the Russians the missing techs for 15g: they get Monotheism!
Sell/gift the Byzantines up: Feudalism...! However, they are not yet willing to sell.
Buy Monotheism from the Osmans for Republic.
Mono+Mona+Lit still not enough to buy Feudalism.
I sell Hannibal Monotheism for 451g and 17gpt.
Theodora still not willing to sell Feudalism for our techs and all our gold.
But no big deal: we'll now dash for Engineering, and that - being monopoly as well - should then be enough to buy Feudalism.
Research to 100%, Engineering due in 11 turns.

Turn 110, 350BC:
Bergen: Worker -> Worker
Oslo: Worker -> Worker
Engineering drops to 9 turns.

The Arabs will have to deal with one half of the uprising...:

Unfortunately the other half will hit us down in the tundra. If the barbs go for empty towns, like the AI does, they will hit Odense and leave Reykjavik alone. So we'll lose a bit of gold and that's it.

eArcher attacks Arab Archer and generates our first MGL: Healfdene!
Good that my turnset is over now, so we can discuss in detail, what we are going to do with it... There are several options:

• Rush the Forbidden Palace in Stavanger, Oslo or Stockholm.
• Use it immediately for a Horsemen Army and take Kufah.
• Keep an empty Army for a land-based Berzerk Army later.

Handover notes:

• Don't worry about the 24 barbs in the tundra. They'll go for Odense, as it is unprotected and lies on their "axis of evil". Just don't remove the defender from Reykjavik. In Odense they'll take away a few coins or destroy the currently accumulated shields (3-4 so far). But if the enter Reykjavik, they could kill several citizens and destroy a half-finished Aqueduct!
• They Aqueduct in Copenhagen will finish exactly in three turns at 3x8. I didn't even need cash for it. In the interturn, three roads and a mine will finish, and then there are 6 workers ready to mine the three grasslands in a single turn each, giving more production to Copenhagen and Birka. The very turn that the three grasslands are done, the road on the hill will finish, so the 6 Workers can then complete the mine on the other hill in two turns. Then Copenhagen should have everything it needs for 15spt (2-turn Horsemen, or later 2-turn Galleys... )
• The Workers between Trondheim and Aarhus will finish their roads interturn. Then 4 Workers are ready to irrigate the BG in one turn. Trondheim can take that BG and give it's current irrigated BG to Copenhagen for faster growth! Once Copenhagen hits size 7, we need to think: hire a scientist and do Horsemen at 3x10, or increase lux spending, join Workers and go for Horsemen at 2x15? Probably we can't keep enough citizens happen for the second option, so we'll need to wait a bit more till other towns are also ready to be pushed up.
• The current Settler can be planted near the two wheats. It was too unsafe down in the tundra, but the barbs and the Arabs near Kufah should kill each other, and we have enough troops there to deal with the survivors, so be the time the Settler gets there, it should be safe.
• Also, as we don't have further safe settle locations, we could think about now doing a few Workers from Trondheim, so we can later push it together with Copenhagen (and possibly Reykjavik)? Or keep going with Settlers, as there are two more reasonable locations by the wheat and between Aarhus and Kufah. (Especially if we go for the Army, it should be no problem to settle there. And the tundra should soon clear up as well, after the big party in Odense...)
  
• The Workers near Reykjavik will finish their mine interturn and then probably need to be retreated behind Reykjavik because of the barb threat. Perhaps they can road another forest there for more production. (Or chop and replant a forest, once Engineering comes in?) We need a few roaded forests there for production, so don't chop them too early.
• Reykjavik can reach size 7 in 10 turns, and the Aqueduct should also finish around that time. It's currently making 6spt, Aqueduct due in 13 (remember: the mine that's about to finish interturn is already contributing). With the next citizen and also the fisherman set to forest temporarily, that'll be 10spt. Just even out the shields via Granary or Courthouse, and the Aqueduct will be done in no time.
  
• I moved Healfdene into safety and so that he can reach Stavanger, Oslo and Stockholm next turn. If we decide to set up the FP in any of these towns, the next player should cash-rush the current project there, before clicking <enter>, so we can then rush the FP next turn. But a Horsemen-Army would also be quite nice...
• Strange: the tiles between Birka and Yekaterinburg switched to us for a short while, during which I started a road there, and then switched back to Russia?! Just let the the improvements finish, we'll get it rather sooner than later. It would be good to have two irrigated grasslands for Birka's growth there.
• Oslo needs attention every turn: the lake tile (2/0/3) needs to be alternated with the irrigated plains (2/1/2) as otherwise corruption would not leave enough shields for 2-turn Workers. If you are unsure, whether you'll remember to do that every turn, better keep it fixed on the plains tile. We'll lose a coin every other turn, but that's better than forgetting and getting the WF out of tact...
• The returning Galley can heal in Copenhagen and then help with Settler transportation.

 

[Nathiri]

I think the FP may be best, but on the other hand, with an army, we could attack a city like Yeka sooner no?

 

[Lanzelot]

Yes, a Horsemen-Army would be immediately useful for three things:

• Clear the barb threat in the tundra, so we can finish settling it.
• Then take Kufah and 1-2 more Arabian towns, cancel our Military Alliance with the Dutch (20 turns are over now) and make peace with Arabia for 2-3 more towns. (They are already willing to give a town for peace.)
• Then regroup for a war with Russia.

However, I'm not sure, whether this isn't also possible without an Army. Our military production is now kicking in and I have a feeling that we are already gaining the upper hand over the Arabs, especially now, that they will take the full brunt of the barbarian uprising near Kufah...
The FP would be more a long-term thing. E.g. Stavanger or Stockholm would instantly be turned into almost corruption-free towns, but they still need 20 turns to reach a proper size and have their tiles improved. But then either one of them would be a power-house. (Rough estimate: Stavanger would be good for 20spt in the long run, Stockholm for 15spt.)

Not sure, which option is stronger. But I think the third option (keep empty Army to fill with Berzerks) is weaker than both of the others: no immediate benefit for the time it takes to get to Invention (~20 turns), and then Berzerks are already so strong, that they slice through Spears and Pikes even without being an Army... So the Army would be kind of "wasted"...

 

[Nathiri]

Yes as I was thinking. The FP, would help those cities, as well as the future ones in our northern area.

Berzerk army though doesnt particularly fit with our game plan of being mostly amphibious. Even if we do fight on land, we can immediately move those units to boats, while an army is harder to do so if even possible, unless we get better boats, which we dont plan on getting to IIRC. Berzerks are also just as good without an army. So either use the army now with the current units we have, or rush.

 

[Elephantium]

I'm leaning towards FP. Horse armies are too fragile IMO, and an invincible Pike army, while nice in concept for covering our Horsemen, isn't actually that useful. And a 'zerk army is just going to take too long.

Another thought: we're building a LOT of infrastructure and little military. I'd like to see Copenhagen, Aarhus, and Stavanger all focus on military after their current builds complete. We're starting to get hemmed in by AI cities, so it's time to start raiding!

 

[choxorn]

Great turnset! Good to see we're moving forward again, it only took us a month to go from your set to mine. At this rate, we can finish the game in around early 2019.

I'm leaning towards FP. Horse armies are too fragile IMO, and an invincible Pike army, while nice in concept for covering our Horsemen, isn't actually that useful. And a 'zerk army is just going to take too long.

Putting aside whether a Pike army is useful or not, we can't build one anyway, because we don't have any Iron. It's either Horse Army or No Army at this point.

One thing to consider is that if we build an army, one victory means we can build the Heroic Epic and get more leaders faster, which would definitely be useful (and why I usually go with an Army for my first leader), but the Forbidden Palace on its own is probably more useful than an Army at this point.

 

[Elephantium]

You mean we don't have iron yet.

Heroic Epic is useful, yes, but IMO we don't have enough military builds as it is. Building the 'Epic delays our military build-up even more

 

[choxorn]

Looking at the save:

-Nobody currently has multiple Iron sources hooked up and all the AI's are too lazy to build Harbors so we can't trade with them, so we're probably going to be without Iron until we can take Russia's source of it way up North (unless there's a closer one in Arabia, or something)
-We have room for one more city by the wheat Lanzelot mentioned, and two more in the tundra. We could probably also fit one between Kufah and Aarhus if we were cool with cramming it a bit, and there's another gap in the far North, a bit north of Stavanger, between Utrecht and a bunch of Russian cities, where we could probably settle our own city.
-Russia probably won't build SoZ for us- they're building it in size 2 Novgorod, which seems to be surrounded by jungle. The Byzantines are building it in size 5 Caesarea.

 

[Elephantium]

Choxorn, could you post a dotmap? I'm thinking we have 2 spots by wheat and 4-5 tundra towns possible, plus apparently a far north spot that I haven't actually seen

 

[choxorn]

Sure, I think I'm thinking of the same spots by the wheat and the tundra that you are.

Up in the north, I'm not sure, but there's room there outside the AI's borders, I put a question mark up there.

 

[choxorn]

On another note, I'm a little confused about the exact turn order right now. I guess Elephantium is up next, which would make it something like this?

Lanzelot --> Just played
Elephantium --> Up
tjs282 --> On Deck
Nathiri
Robbus
Choxorn

 

[Synobun]

The Russians are having a real population problem.

 

[Nathiri]

I dont think we should worry about the north land area. I think we should just build in the few remaining spots, and then focus on the conquering.

 

[Elephantium]

I like the idea of a city in the northern location, but it will be hard to defend. Probably shoot for orange and blue dots next, and fill in tundra locations later. Corruption will be lower at the tundra, but those spots will take a lot of infrastructure buildup.

I'll post a dotmap of my own once I get home.

 

[Lanzelot]

I'd like to see Copenhagen, Aarhus, and Stavanger all focus on military after their current builds complete.

Yep. Copenhagen can start building 3-turn Horsemen in three turns from now (and later even 2-turn Horsemen). That should already help a lot. So the Barracks there will in the end be useful after all.
Stavanger will only produce 1spt for a long time to come, unless we rush the FP there.

We have room for one more city by the wheat Lanzelot mentioned, and two more in the tundra.

I'm thinking even three towns total by the wheat and four in the tundra:

That would be 8 more Settlers. But I don't want to build all of them from Trondheim now, we should soon let it grow and build military as well. Perhaps 1-2 more Settlers, 2-3 Workers and then push it up?!
With an FP in Stavanger, Bergen and/or Oslo might be corruption-free enough to do 4-turn Settlers for a while?!

 

[Spoonwood]

The Russians are having a real population problem.

I did some investigating... not that I would do this in a game that I'm playing.

Spoiler :

They have three settlers in cities. They also haven't irrigated any of their grasslands. It also seems that they have more than a few spears, some of which might have gotten pop rushed earlier. [\SPOILER]

 

[choxorn]

I like the idea of a city in the northern location, but it will be hard to defend. Probably shoot for orange and blue dots next, and fill in tundra locations later. Corruption will be lower at the tundra, but those spots will take a lot of infrastructure buildup.

I'll post a dotmap of my own once I get home.

I don't think we should build up there like, right now, but it's something to think about if we get cities down everywhere else and there's still room up there.

 

[Elephantium]

Ooh! Lanz, I really like your wheat dotmap. My priority would be the barb camp dot first, followed by red, then the other two, followed by tundra towns (by then we'll need to have a new debate).

Here's my tundra map:



The two black spots aren't very strong, but they're worth 3-7gpt each (2 in unit support, 1-2 in direct commerce, 2-3 if they're always size 1 with a specialist). I'd even put them after the black question mark / gold hill near Utrecht in terms of priority -- not relevant for 40-50 turns, if ever. We'll own half of Russia by then

And for strategy (sorry it's so long!):

Turnset planning:

* Barbarian uprising: Let the barbs hit Odense; the hit to our treasury isn't as bad as what they would do to Reykjavik.
* Copenhagen: It will gross 15 shields at size 9 (6 from hills, 2 from mined BG, 1 from city center, 6 from mined grasslands). Corruption will drop that to 14. We'll need the other BG from Trondheim before we get 15 uncorrupted shields.

IMO, we should leave it at size 7 with 10spt until we have more luxuries.

* Workers: I agree with Lanz's thoughts on Worker management. He covered #1-13 out of 20.
14: Forest between Aarhus and T'heim-What's his story? That forest would be a nice addition to Aarhus' next build, but the chop will go to T'heim by default.
15: Near Stavanger. Road and irrigate the FP tile next.
16: W of Bergen. Road 1S of Stockholm and then keep roading towards the Wheat to aid defensive moves.
17: NE of Stockholm. Road/irrigate, then road the hill to Stavanger.
18: N of Bergen. Help with 17's jobs next.
19: Near Yekaterinburg. Head towards Stockholm or mine 1SW and wait for us to conquer Yekaterinburg?
20: Hill near Copenhagen. Help with 19's Mine if possible?

* Bergen can't be a 4-turn Settler factory without a Courthouse. With more improvements, it could get up to:

Shields - Shields after corruption
6 - 5
9 - 7
7 - 6
10 - 8

With FP:

6 - 5
9 - 8
7 - 6
10 - 8

In both cases, that's a bit short of the 30 needed for a Settler. I suppose would could short-rush...that's more fiddly than I'd like to do, however.

* Another thought on Forbidden Palace vs. Horse Army. It'll take us 6-7 turns to build Horsemen 2 and 3, so the Army won't really help us any until the end of this turnset.

Votes:
choxorn: Army
Nathiri: FP?
Lanz: -
TJS: -
robbus: -
Tusker: FP

* City build plans:
T'heim: Settlers (to second coastal Wheat tile and then to red dot)
Bergen: Workers (mostly head W to help develop our Wheat province as it comes on line)
Copenhagen: 3-turn Horsemen after 'duct completes
Reykjavik: Finish the 'duct (MM for shields at size 6)
Oslo: Workers (head towards Stavanger)
Stockholm: Pure Horsemen.
Birka: Pure Horsemen.
Aarhus: Barracks, then Horsemen (or start on Galleys?)
Stavanger: Rush Worker, rush FP, then start Barracks.
Odense: Harbor (est. 16T needed)

Military:
2 Galleys in home waters: Stay in place for ship-chaining to the tundra.
3rd Galley: Head to Copenhagen, arrive ~T7.
Warrior: Explore NW of Moscow.
E* Archer: Heal in Stockholm, then advance on Kufah.
E (4/5) Archer: Heal in place, then stack with Spear.
E (5/5) Archer: Stack with Spear.
r Archer: Stay with Spear.
r Archer in Stavanger: Stay in place.
eSpear: Lead stack to cover Wheat-Settler, then cover advance on Kufah.
Horseman: Stay in place until Vandals are done attacking, then head for Kufah with the Spear-stack.

 

[Lanzelot]

Plan looks fine! My two cents on the open questions:

14: Forest between Aarhus and T'heim-What's his story? That forest would be a nice addition to Aarhus' next build, but the chop will go to T'heim by default.

My idea when moving the worker there was to just build a road, no chop. When Reykjavik grows to size 6, it can use that 1/2/2 tile to speed up the Aqueduct. And if we temporarily switch Reykjavik's fish tile to another roaded forest, we would get it to 10spt, finishing the Aqueduct in no time (if necessary with a little short-rush).

I did not go to the hill, because it will take 18 worker turns to get improved, and then only provides one shield more than the forest. The hill would probably come too late to make a difference for the Aqueduct, while the forest only needs 6 worker turns and is almost as good as a hill. And also the hill would come into striking range of the barbs, while the forest is safely behind the lines...

Of course long-term the hill will also be needed.

19: Near Yekaterinburg. Head towards Stockholm or mine 1SW and wait for us to conquer Yekaterinburg?

Or improve some more tiles in the Trondheim/Bergen vicinity and then get joined into one of those cities, when we "grow big"?!
Same for 20.

* Bergen can't be a 4-turn Settler factory without a Courthouse. With more improvements, it could get up to:

Are you sure about this? I was hoping that at least one shield would become uncorrupted in Bergen, when we have the Forbidden Palace in Stavanger/Stockholm. And that would already be enough for the 4-turner to become possible?! In any case: with a mined hill "on growth" instead of the forest, it should work!

Lanz: -

My vote goes for FP in Stavanger. Stockholm would also be fine, but my gut feeling is saying that Stavanger has slightly better potential?!

3rd Galley: Head to Copenhagen, arrive ~T7.

Let's explore those remaining black spots NE of Amsterdam, while we are there. Coming home a turn sooner or later shouldn't matter.

Horseman: Stay in place until Vandals are done attacking, then head for Kufah with the Spear-stack.

Or help with cleaning up the tundra barb nest, once the uprising is over. We better smoke it out, before we send the next Settlers down there...


Settling the tundra: the two Settlers for the fish locations could come from Trondheim. But then it's about time to take T'heim off settler duty and let it grow! The fish towns with their extra food could then perhaps slowly build/rush the Settlers for the other 4 locations?

Long-term the 4 coastal locations should be quite good for galley production. With a Harbor, the non-fish towns can work 4 x coast and 2 x forest at size 6, for 5 shields before corruption. (So perhaps 2-3 shields after corruption?) The fish towns can work 2 x coast and 4 x forest, for a total of 9 shields. (3 shields after corruption?)
10 turns for a Galley isn't that bad, and as Tusker already pointed out, these towns will also generate a fair amount of income.

The inland towns however, will probably not be useful for anything except a size-1 specialist and producing "Wealth"...?!