TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Elephantium]

Oh. I'm not worried about that. We'll have Horsemen on line by then, I'm sure!

 

[Lanzelot]

I think that first ring cities should get priority. The sooner we found them, the sooner they will be up to speed (=making 10spt...)
If the AI grabs one of our second ring spots - no big deal. These are long term investments anyway, and the fact that we get them a bit later is compensated by the fact that we don't need to build a settler for it... (So our capital can get productive sooner.)

So if we combine the two criteria (expand towards enemy + do core towns first), then we would arrive at the Whale town ("Green"). That town can use one of the irrigated tiles that Trondheim doesn't need at the moment (thanks for making that "mistake", robbus... ), and can get a forest chop or two for speeding up the necessary Lib. And we should then soon settle "Pink" as well, so we get that BG. (But not on the hill. The hill is needed for production, we have so few of them. Better move "Pink" 1 tile NW, where it will be able to get the sugar tile into its BFC.)

Regarding Spoonwoods calculations on how long it will take to research Construction or Currency and how long we need to build Aqueducts and Markets: I think this is a bit too pessimistic. The calculations are correct, if you look at the "current state of affairs", but we now have a 4-turn SF and a 2-turn WF online, so things will quickly improve. Both the Settlers and the Workers now rolling out, will decrease the research time, and the Workers will also get towns to 5spt quickly (and mid-term even to 10spt). So I expect that Construction can be done in ~20 turns or even less, and an Aqueduct in about the same time.
And it is not a question of whether to do horizontal or vertical expansion: we should do both... So while some towns are providing the Settlers, Horses and Archers necessary for the horizontal expansion, other towns can meanwhile go for Lib and Aqueduct and really go through the roof (in terms of research).

PS: one more consideration regarding "Ducts or Markets": at the moment we are still doing research at top priority. So there is (nearly) no cash income, which a Marketplace could enhance. And also we only have one lux online, so the Marketplace would not increase happiness (Market needs at least 3 luxes, before it increases happiness). This means a Marketplace at the moment has no effect whatsoever (except for costing maintenance...) And this is not going to change until we start our conquest (capture the Russian ivory and the Dutch silks) and shut down our research (after finishing Invention).
Aqueducts, however, will soon yield a lot of "return on investment" as our many Workers will start irrigating tiles for "high potential" towns like Copenhagen and Reykjavik, which will then grow quickly and become very powerful (if we let them).

 

[tjs282]

What's the estimated time on Monarchy if you were choose to research it, and what is it's cost in comparison to researching both Currency and Construction?

On the last turn before Maths, at SCI%=70%, I was getting 48 BPT. Monarchy is 720 beakers right now, and would therefore take 15T -- 2-3T longer than Construction (600 beakers at 48 BPT = 12.5T), and 5T longer than Currency (480 beakers = 10T). But as I say, Osman or Hanni (or Abu, I suppose, though WW must be hurting him) is likely researching it, since they are still the only AIs which already have Poly. And we don't need Monarchy for anything, but we do want the non-optionals to advance.

No one yet has Maths (apart from us, almost), so I was thinking to get Currency first (and maybe an SGL...? ) and maybe use Markets as Duct-prebuilds while we then go for Construction, which should be quicker to research by then, because we'll have more/bigger towns. But Lanzelot wants Construction now, so I guess that's what I should do...

I do appreciate reading this though. I simply don't recall ever considering researching Construction before Currency. At the very least, I'm thinking about what things might be like if I did that.

Again, I was quoting Justanick: he strongly advocates beelining to Construction immediately after Republic, precisely in order to get Ducts up, and turn towns into cities.

Right now we still only have 5 towns (soon to be 6), so we only get 5 free units. But we have about 14 on the board (and a Galley in production, though that can be switched to a Lib or Horse by the next player before it completes), because while I was busy shuffling tiles between Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim and Cope (on every turn), I forgot to switch off the rArcher-build in Reyk

Still, we may be glad we have that extra Archer, if/when the Aztecs land, or the barbs attack... The next player will also be able to build Horsemen

Dutch settler was wandering around north of Bergen during my turnset, where are they now? I guess I shall have to wait to see tjs save... hehehe.

That pair was last seen heading SW towards Kufah. No orange borders have shown up within visual range of Bergen yet, so I guess Willy wanna go get himself some sugah...?

If we move the orange NE, then we're just two tiles South of Yekaterinburg, which will be fine if we immediately build some culture there, but it's something to keep in mind.

Yeah, OK, then I'm not going to settle Orange-dot yet, because '1 tile further out for more coastal tiles' could mean NE or SE -- the latter actually gets more Coast, I think, although it also impinges more on Cope...

So if we combine the two criteria (expand towards enemy + do core towns first), then we would arrive at the Whale town ("Green"). That town can use one of the irrigated tiles that Trondheim doesn't need at the moment (thanks for making that "mistake", robbus... ), and can get a forest chop or two for speeding up the necessary Lib.

Green it is then. Trond does need that iBGrass right now, though, because Reyk's currently stealing the one just SW of it -- and Bergen's got the ones to the WNW of Trond. But the next player will get plenty of Workers for deforestation and irrigation...

And we should then soon settle "Pink" as well, so we get that BG. (But not on the hill. The hill is needed for production, we have so few of them. Better move "Pink" 1 tile NW, where it will be able to get the sugar tile into its BFC.)

OK. Not really my problem though...

Finishing my turns now...

EDIT: Or not. I just clicked End Turn, and this happened:

So I'm going to stop again, because an SGL needs serious team input.

We can't build our FP for a while yet, so what should we do? GLight ourselves in Cope? It has no chop-shields in the bin...

Or should some lucky town just get a 1T-Lib...? (Reyk could do with it, so that it gets the Fish, and can let Trond have the soon-to-be irrigated BGrass (Trond is only getting 3FPT while it builds this Settler...).

Or should I just store Dr. Angstrom for later...?

Lanzelot:
I did not hold out much hope that the rCurragh would complete Mission Red, which is why that unloaded Galley is heading north right now. It could at least explore the Ottoman coast before coming back to pick up a Horse for Mission Yellow, or I can recall/disband it if you'd prefer. But if we do build the GLight, I think we should keep exploring...

 

[Spoonwood]

I had forgotten. I have added workers in from a worker pump before. I apologize for saying otherwise.

 

[Spoonwood]

We can't build our FP for a while yet, so what should we do? GLight ourselves in Cope? It has no chop-shields in the bin

Some considerations... you have at least one boat out already near your capital, which might swing back. If you swing it back around, you might use the boat to move your settlers to your city locations, such as to the yellow dot. You might also use the boats to move to the tundra locations once you find it the right time to send settlers down there. This will probably save a few turns in movement of walking the settler, especially if you have The Great Lighthouse. But, the risk lies in that there might exist barbarian galleys down there which could sink your boat and your settler also. Additionally, an earlier Great Lighthouse would make moving your boats towards your opponents on your homeland faster also.

By storing him for later, I would guess Leonardo's Workshop would end up as superior to Sun Tzu's or Knight's Templar. And that would make for earlier berserks.

 

[Spoonwood]

Also, with respect to settling the yellow dot, if you don't road up the forest, then you could have the galley in Trondheim for when the settler gets produced. Then after it's production, you load it onto the boat. Loading doesn't cost anything in movement. So, you swing the boat down to that yellow dot spot and immediately unload it. And thus you would move your settler to it's founding site in a single turn. The same effect might get achieved with ship chaining (EMan's histographic games suggest things like this going on). But, I don't know if you want another boat or two out for that. But, if you used ship chaining, then you wouldn't have to worry about a barbarian galley sinking your boat. Also, I forgot... Lanzelot points out in his recent game with India, that if you move your boat to a sea square instead of a coastal square for it's last movement, then the barbarians will not attack it.

 

[robbus]

1000BC dotmap

 

[tjs282]

Yes... As Robbus has so eloquently pointed out (a picture worth a thousand words -- I should draw more!), Yellow-dot is already Settled. But shipping Settlers to the 2nd/3rd-ring Tundra-Fish tiles at the southern end of our peninsula, would certainly make more sense than walking there -- once we want to build those towns. Green-dot, White-dot, Pink dot and Orange-dot(ish) are higher priorities for the next 4 Settlers at least.

Team, we basically have a pick of Pyramids, ToA, Oracle, MoM, Glight, or GLib. GWalls and HGard need Construction and Monarchy, respectively, Colossus is already built, and we have no Ivory for SoZ. In addition to ToA, the Ottos have also started Pyramids and Oracle since my set began. I think Monty needs to fight Osman, Fatso's obviously got too little to do...

I vote for GLight, for safety from barbs, because we can start a prebuild for Sun or Leos before we get to the Medieval (we'll be the first ones there, I think), which gives us our GA. (And if we're very lucky, we may have another SGL to build one of them with, from Construction or Currency).
Nighty-night...

 

[Spoonwood]

Pyramids

Oh... it's still available. I hadn't considered that. Your cities have a long way to grow and you don't have THAT many workers for add ins, do you? Oh... and with the Pyramids you may well want and aqueduct much sooner.

In my opinion, it's VERY difficult to overestimate the positive effects of having the Pyramids early on WHEN you can SGL them. If you build them you can also sell the granaries that you have (even after you've build The Pyramids). I don't think this is close. The Pyramids make for the superior choice in terms of ease of gameplay and development of your empire. Though... maybe you guys don't want to have that much of an easy game. I mean, if you want this as a sort of game for people to learn how to play more difficult starts or more "regular" upper level games well, then you wouldn't want The Pyramids.

 

[choxorn]

I'd go with the Pyramids, because free granaries forever > almost every other AA wonder, and it's useless to us if the Ottomans build it, but we can still use the Great Lighthouse if someone off our island builds it, it's just a little harder to take it. I'd build SoZ if we could, and the Great Lighthouse is worthy of consideration, but I think I still prefer the Pyramids.

And Amsterdam is building the Pyramids right now, isn't it? They might cascade into the lighthouse if we build the Pyramids ourselves.

 

[Elephantium]

Tjs, could you post a mid-set save?

 

[tjs282]

Tjs, could you post a mid-set save?

Sure.

EDIT: Here's the turnlog for the first 5T. Sorry it's long, I tend to make notes as much as (or more than) for myself as for my team-mates. And I tend to ramble, hence the Spoiler...

Spoiler Turns 80-85 :

T 80, 1000 BC
CAII switched on -- hope it won't flake out on me again...
Preflight -- already done.
Oslo switched to building Courthouse
Nothing left to do but take a deep breath, and hit Enter...
IBT
Dutch Settler-pair head SW to Mountain

T 81, 975 BC
vArchers moved back under eSpear, to make them more mobile if need be
Oslo's Warrior sent north -- realise I could have done that before I started...
Oslo MM'd for zero food-waste on growth -- iBG given to Bergen
Bergen MM'd for growth in 2T (wastes 1f, will need to do MM again next turn), vArcher should then get 6+5s, and finish on growth
Worker begins chop near Trondheim (4T)
HUH?!? Workers from Bergen are already done roading! HOW? The game said they needed 2T! Well OK, 1 moved to irrigate BG between Trond and Reyk (1+4T). But the other won't move...
1/3 rCurragh now exploring NE coast of Carthage, until it gets sunk
IBT

T 82, 950 BC
vArchers sentried
Bergen's 2nd Worker goes to road Bergen's BG 1SW of current tile (1+3T) -- Horses are tempting, but not until we've grown -- which needs food. eSpear covers him
Trond MM'd for 11SPT + 1FPT (Lib in 3T, chop in 3T, growth in 10T) -- for this turn only (Bergen will grow, and then Trond can be MM'd for less SPT and more FPT)
Bergen MM'd for growth and (hopefully) Archer-build without waste
Oslo now working Sugar (soon to be irrigated) and iBG again (for this turn only), for more SPT at 2FPT
Drat: forgot my plan to have Cope use the Forest before Trond -- it will now get it this turn instead of the iGrass, for growth in 1T, and Galley in 3T
IBT
AWESOME! Bergen: vArcher --> Worker (2T after MM)
Reyk: rArcher --> Lib (27T, before chop and further growth. But it will riot without MM)

T 83, 925 BC
New rArcher + vArcher sentried in Reyk and Bergen
Bergen sells its Rax (+5g)
Oslo gives the iBGrass back to Bergen, allowing us to Worker-pump at 5SPT + 5FPT. YES!
Trondheim's citizens go fishing instead of foresting, getting us 5 SPT to our Lib (it now needs 19s, and chop comes in 2T), but increasing CPT
Reyk's new citizen needs to go fishing to keep him happy, Lib now in 40T (and growth in 20T) instead. Gotta get it hooked up, but Trond and Bergen are the priority until I have at least 1 Worker per town...
Maths now in 3T. Could reduce SCI% to 60%, but am mindful of what Lanz said about keeping it at max. for extra beakers just in case -- which will then also let us drop it further and get more cash on the last turn.
Curragh spots dark red borders east of Carthage! Hel-lo BAAAaaY-bee!
(Oh drat, Dora can't hear me shouting...)
IBT
Abu wants a chat, but now he won't concede Kufah anymore (guess it's grown), although he will pay us his entire 70g. No ta.
Osman begins Oracle in ???

T 84, 900 BC
Oslo's Sugar now roaded+ irrigated: Citizen sent from Lake to Forest for more SPT (but less CPT) at 2 FPT (growth in 7T), Worker sent 2SW to road and irrigate BGrass (1+4T) for 4 FPT, just in time to grow in 6T instead
Curragh arrives on the shores of Caesarea:
Dora has Constantinople + 8 cities, 32g, access to Ivory, and is down CoL, Lit and Poly. She does not appear to have contacted Carthage, Russia or the Dutch, even though she's not far from Carthage (or Arabia). She's also Annoyed with us: I would like to set up an Embassy -- but we can't afford it yet (needs 66g, we have 59g -- but Maths in 2T). So I smile sweetly at her, and depart
Cope will way overrun on its Galley-build with current tiles (even after the Forest gets chopped), so I send 2 Citizens fishing instead. This gives us no-waste growth in 6T at 3 FPT, and a no-waste finish on the Galley (not that we really need it for the contacts now, but we might as well explore some more). It could do a Lib next...
Getting a little nervous about Cope standing unguarded though -- it's our nearest town to the Aztecs. One stacked vArcher is sent to garrison it...
IBT
Dora asks us to sail away
Trond: Lib --> Settler (3T at 10SPT--the chopped Forest covered a BGrass!) Perfect!
Bergen: Pumping 2T Workers (NB THIS NEEDS MM right now, so watch it!)
Cope: Galley --> Galley (10T)

T 85, 875 BC
Trond's Lumberjack begins roading BGrass (3T)
New Galley heads north for Dutch waters (NOT auto-moving!)
Bergen's new Worker goes to connect the Horse (of course!) (1+3T)
Northern Warrior spots Dutch Settler+Spear pair to the east, on Hills WNW of Eindhoven
SCI% to 10% for Maths in 1T, +22GPT (wastes some beakers, but zero SCI% and a lone Geek -- in Reyk -- would need 3T)
GAME SAVED
IBT
Maths comes in and we get an SGL! --> Construction (15T at SCI% = 60%, -9 GPT, Treasury = 72g)
Ottos begin Pyramids in Istanbul

Here's the 850 BC save I made immediately after the above IBT, with our SGL in Trond. Nothing has been moved yet, and I would appreciate some input on the next Worker-moves.

I have 2 free to move this turn. Should they mine the Grass that Robbus irrigated (2*3 WT), or irrigate the BGrass I just roaded near Bergen (2*2 WT, but the Worker near Trond can't start that job this turn), to take the pressure off Trond's I(B)Grass-tiles?

Bergen needs 5 FPT right now, but Trond will need 5FPT (+7SPT) in 3T...

Choxorn:
The Pyramids do seem like a good idea as well, for the reasons you say. Willy probably will cascade to GLight, since he's the only one building a coastal Wonder while knowing Maps. Osman doesn't have Writing/Maps yet, Moscow isn't coastal, and I've had no notification of Abu, Hanni or Dora starting any Wonder-builds. So yeah, Pyramids might well make sense for us.

(But ToA would give Speedbird his Temples...)

 

[choxorn]

I find Temple of Artemis to generally be nearly useless unless I'm going for a 100k culture victory.

 

[tjs282]

I find Temple of Artemis to generally be nearly useless unless I'm going for a 100k culture victory.

In the epic game I'd agree. But I did enjoy using it the other week, in my second ever attempt at the Rise of Rome Conquest (as the Romans, at Emp), to paint the whole of France, most of Iberia and central Europe, and southern Britain, a bright, bright red...

Spoiler Gloat... sort of :

Not sure how much ToA actually helped me win though. I was hoping for Dom when I started, and I did get >20% of the tiles, but I didn't manage to get my population much past 40% (50% needed); even though I was rolling in gold and cash-rushing Citizens to fill the map as quickly as I could, I'd waited too long to start doing that, I think. In the last 20T, I had to race for unit-kill VPs, just squeaking past the Persians in the last 5T before end-of-game. If I'd put those [GA-fuelled] Wonder-shields into LegionaryI's instead of ToA (and Colossus; I also built a 1T-GLib with a SGL that I got for Construction or Lit), I could have started conquering in earnest (a lot) earlier. Guess I need to play it again...

 

[Lanzelot]

I find Temple of Artemis to generally be nearly useless unless I'm going for a 100k culture victory.

Well, ToA is also the key wonder for fast domination on large landmasses, and we do have a large landmass here. And the +1 free happy citizen for the rest of the game is also nothing to be sneezed at. (And if we are lucky and Moscow indeed completes the Oracle, that's +2 free happy citizens for the rest of the game...!) So it's a tough decision.

• Definitely not the Lighthouse: we can get it for free from the AI, where ever on the world it will be built. And it's not really crucial at the moment (Both Pyramids and ToA would be much stronger on this particular map.)
• Do we have any information on when Tenochtitlan, Amsterdam, Constantinople and Istanbul started the Pyramids? If we could be sure that Amsterdam wins the Pyramids race, then there is no need to build it ourselves. Here's how these cities look like at the moment:
  
  
  
  Istanbul can be neglected... So the question is: which of the other three had the biggest headstart? We can still establish an embassy in Constantinople and should do so right now. Then we have more information upon which to base our decision.
• In my experience, up to Emperor the AI is always late with finishing Artemis. (The most expensive wonder of the AA.) If you want it on time to make a difference and on the "right" landmass, it's usually better to build it yourself.

So a the moment I would take the gamble that Amsterdam builds the Pyramids, Constantinople then cascades into the Lighthouse, Moscow finishes the Oracle, and we build Artemis. This would be the best possible case, because then all 4 wonders can be owned by us without much effort. And even if only 2 or 3 of these events actually happen, it would already be a huge stroke of luck. So I slightly prefer Artemis over the Pyramids. But Pyramids would of course also be very strong.

Another important question: where to build the wonder? I would suggest Whale town, then we can very soon use the Whale tile as well as that BG and don't need to hurry a Library there! (A good option for Whale town would then be a harbor and 1-2 Galleys for shipping Settlers down to the tundra. That's indeed something we should do. I don't see us building roads down there anytime soon, so ship-chaining the Settlers down there, when we are ready to settle that area, is indeed best. And by the time we are finished settling the more important sites, we should have enough Galleys ready for that.)

Next worker jobs: definitely do something for Reykjavik!! It's not growing at the moment and the Lib is also not making progress... We want that nice fish! (Another reason, why Artemis to me looks stronger than the Pyramids. Pyramids only help with growth from 1-6. After 7 I usually grow by worker joins. The free happiness and the free culture seems stronger to me, if you plan to not research beyond Theology, that is. Of course this will be the case in our game.)

 

[Speedbird 95]

I vote for the Great Library...

We started this game with the concept that our berserkers would dominate our enemies in the middle ages, but little is going according to plan:

• We are on a big continent, without iron, without a road network or sea route to reach most of our rivals quickly
• All of our continental rivals have a UU that will cause us some trouble (counting ancient cavalry as the Russian UU)
• We had a food-poor start that has severely limited our development
• We have traded away several technologies
• Two of our rivals are scientific
• All of our rivals will be able to contact each other using galleys or land units, and trade technologies among themselves
• Someone will build the Great Library, then ALL of our rivals will have pikemen and knights
• At least 3 of our continental rivals have a culture advantage, making it difficult to keep conquered cities

Under these conditions, we are heading for a slow conventional land campaign, using our berserkers as some sort of super swordsmen/crusaders to conquer our nearest neighbors.
We are likely to reach the Napoleonic or early industrial era before our continental rivals are eliminated. Worse, our distant rivals may develop cavalry and/or riflemen before we cripple them. We might finish the game in world war 1 style with infantry armies & stacks of artillery.

Or we can just crank up the research, build some universities & scientist farms, do some diplomacy & wait for the UN...

So I agree with Spoonwood & others that the Pyramids are objectively the strongest choice for our situation.

But what about our berserker strategy?

The solution was invented (or first(?) documented in civfanatics) by SirPleb in GOTM-18. My bookmark was broken in the server migration and I wasted an hour trying to find the original write-up, but the Cliff-notes version goes something like this:

SirPleb was playing the Celts on a large(?) pangaea map. In order to maximize the period of time that his Gallic swordsmen would be effective, he did everything possible to slow the global pace of research.

In practice this meant:

• Not trading away technologies
• starting or provoking lots of phony wars with distant enemies & recruiting allies to fight them
• direct fighting against his neighbors
• pillaging luxuries
• building (or capturing?) the Great Library
• setting zero science, the AI research cost is higher if the human player doesn't already know the tech that the AI is researching.
• I am sure I have neglected to think of some other tactic(s), SirPleb is more creative than I am!

Two of the key points:

1. If we get the Great Library ourselves we deny it to the rival civilizations
2. zero science = lots of gold for upgrades

What about our food & granary situation if we forgo the Pyramids?

We have 1 settler pump in Trondheim and 1 worker pump in Bergen.

I am not sure what we are intending to do with Copenhagen in the current save. We have irrigated but not built a granary, researching construction specifically to make an aqueduct for Copenhagen?

We have additional grassland in the east & west that can be irrigated

We can rush granaries with cash!

I am not sure how many granaries we need in total, perhaps enough for 2 settler pumps and 2-3 worker pumps. That is 4-5 cities devoted to settlers + workers & the rest can do military + galleys. +1 city prebuilding a wonder (see below)

With the Great Library, we don't care anymore if Russia is furious with us, we might as well take Yekaterinburg for the wheat fields instead of gifting them into the middle age & trading for their free tech.

By the way, nobody discovered the real reason why my proposed culture attack would have worked against Yekaterinburg, but with the Great Library my culture attack becomes obsolete. We should still try it if we go for the Pyramids instead...

As for pre-building the wonder, I don't like the T of A because the temples disappear with education. Here is what I want:

Spoiler :

The Knights Templar.
To fill armies when we get leaders.
Because we have no iron, we can't make knight armies.
Because berserker armies lose their amphibious capability.

Start pre-building when we get feudalism...

 

[tjs282]

Do we have any information on when Tenochtitlan, Amsterdam, Constantinople and Istanbul started the Pyramids? If we could be sure that Amsterdam wins the Pyramids race, then there is no need to build it ourselves. Here's how these cities look like at the moment:

Monty and Willy have been going longest on Pyramids to the best of our knowledge: I don't know who started first, but they were both doing it at the beginning of my turns. Given Amsterdam's low shield-potential, Monty probably has the better chance of finishing it.

I assume you've opened my save and discovered that Dora is building it too? I have no information how long that's been brewing: I got no notifications about the Byzzies starting it during my turns, so it must have happened on someone else's set (if at all? Do we get Wonder pop-ups from Civs we've never heard of?). Istanbul is indeed a total non-starter: Ozzie only started building Pyramids 1-2T ago.

Speedbird:
Cope needs to grow, but it's not the only 1st-ring town that needs (or will need) a Duct soon -- especially if we SGL-rush the Pyramids. Of our 1st-ringers, Reyk, Green-dot, and Orange-dot will also need Ducts. Cope is currently building a second Galley for Lanz's Mission Yellow (investigating the Ottoman Empire), since Mission Red (which I understood to also include mapping coastlines/ naval attack-routes, not just meeting the Byzzies) is likely not completable by the rCurragh.

And you're wrong about us needing to use Berserkers to go overland. Right now, Horses are fine for taking down Arab, Dutch and Russian Spears/ Swords (on offence), and Horses/ Archers can also defend our cities (once they become cities) from incoming Warriors, Archers, Horses, and Swords.

Later on, all our rivals have towns -- in some cases a lot of towns -- which are reachable via Coast (or Sea) tiles, using Galleys + Zerks for amphibious assaults (we then temporarily gift the captured towns to a distant civ that we're not fighting -- yet). The AI will not attack onto Sea-tiles until it has Astro -- and we are going to do our damndest not to let any of them get there. (That said, the Dromon will lethal-bombard sea-tiles, so a stack of Dromons on Coastal-tiles could cause problems for any passing Longboats)

Therefore, Galleys are (mostly) safe from both sponataneous sinking and boat-attacks on Sea-tiles, and can move up to 5 tiles per turn once we have the GLight. Willy will probably cascade to the GLight in Amsterdam. With respect to other potential cascades, if we rush a Wonder now/ soon:

Moscow has been building Oracle for at least 5T (was doing it when I started), and has no shield-shortage, so shouldn't lose it in a cascade (Cathy can't switch to SoZ, she doesn't know Maths -- but I was thinking to maybe let Dora have that tech instead, so she can go and weaken Carthage for us...).

If someone builds the GLib (no-one has started it yet, but someone may cascade to it), we could simply stop tech-trading: GLib only provides non-monopoly techs to a Civ which knows 2 other Civs with that tech. Just an example of AI-ineptitude/ lack of contact, Dora and Hanni are right next door, but do not yet have Embassies with each other.

Right now we are already the tech leader, and only Carthage is close to us (because we helped them), but Hanni does not yet know the Maths-techs either, has not started any Wonder-builds, and is fighting the Arabs for us (our MA is at ~17T now, so he is probably also already some way through his GA). Very few Civs know Republic, so we may still be able to gift up the SCI-Civs and trade it for their freebie-techs (unless someone gets GLib).

Because once we reach the Medieval age, we need ONLY 3 techs: Feudalism and Engineering (which we might get for Republic) and Invention (which we can then research almost immediately). And (then) lots of Zerks (including Archer upgrades) and Galleys. And nothing else.

 

[Speedbird 95]

My post was written before I read Lanzelot. Aztecs started the Pyramids long before anyone else popped up on our F7 screen. Dutch started Pyramids after finishing Colossus.

EDIT: I meant to say our berserkers will be effective until our enemies have riflemen and cavalry.

EDIT 2: Arabs have taken Kufah off the table, now we have to conquer it ourselves or wait until Carthage cripples them.

EDIT 3: Past time to discuss Bede's rules of trading technology to other civs. Does anyone have a link or a quote?

 

[Spoonwood]

So I slightly prefer Artemis over the Pyramids.

I believe it can readily get inferred that Lanzelot has a domination victory in mind. If you guys want a conquest victory, his comments about the Temple of Artemis have less relevance. It might be good to try to come to some sort of consensus about desired victory condition before making a decision here.

Speedbird's idea of using The Great Library would allow for more archers to get upgraded to berserks. At least, if you don't drown in unit support before the AIs get Invention. Using it though, even though it would slow the global research pace, probably would pick up the research pace after Invention, since the AIs would probably have bigger cities and thus more commerce at that point (plus possibly more commerce from tourist attractions). So, I'm not so sure that doing that here would slow the research pace AFTER you had berserks. More likely, it would mean a quicker research pace after that.

 

[tjs282]

I believe it can readily get inferred that Lanzelot has a domination victory in mind. If you guys want a conquest victory, his comments about the Temple of Artemis have less relevance. It might be good to try to come to some sort of consensus about desired victory condition before making a decision here.

Speedbird's idea of using The Great Library would allow for more archers to get upgraded to berserks. At least, if you don't drown in unit support before the AIs get Invention. Using it though, even though it would slow the global research pace, probably would pick up the research pace after Invention, since the AIs would probably have bigger cities and thus more commerce at that point (plus possibly more commerce from tourist attractions). So, I'm not so sure that doing that here would slow the research pace AFTER you had berserks. More likely, it would mean a quicker research pace after that.

Conquest would be fun, but Domination is probably simpler, especially with ToA -- we likely only need to own our own supercontinent (removing the Dutch, Russians, Arabs, Carthaginians and Byzzies) to get 66% land (or does that required percentage also include Coast/Sea tiles?), and 66% population is then just a matter of time.