TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Lanzelot]

I like Speedbird's idea of using Copenhagen for Galleys. Makes a lot of sense, as we need a Harbor there anyway. So let the Harbor complete and then use "Blue" as Barracks-town.

I prefer "Yellow" over the Whales town, precisely because of what tjs said: it can immediately use two BGs and will get up to speed much more quickly than Whale-town would. And it's safer.

 

[Spoonwood]

Question with context:

I reread the Sid Vicious Magnificient Seven Plus One thread recently. Doc T. (I don't recall all the characters in his name exactly) makes an interesting comment somewhere in there where he says that the team had decided to top out cities once they hit size 12 in that he didn't necessarily agree with that, perhaps suggesting that he preferred to produce settlers/workers in combination with units say from size 10 to 12 in some cities or size 11 to 12. I haven't done that either of those in my games. Unless you know corruption for city sites ahead of time, how many shields you can get in say 8 turns can't get exactly predicted, except for the capital. And how many shields Trondheim can have per turn isn't knowable yet, but will become so once you've cleared all/most of the forests. For example, perhaps you might put out a berserk in 3 turns and a worker on the last turn using the coastal squares also? Is that even possible with 5 turn growth on this map? I'll guess not. Or a 4 turn berserk at 17.5 shield average over those 4 turns, then swap to the coast squares and put out a worker as another example?

But, still, I wonder on your guys plan:

Will you:

1. Top out Trondheim, sell it's granary at size 12, and just have it concentrate on producing units with a barracks?

2. Or will you have Trondheim continue to grow and look for unit/building worker/settlers combos?

 

[robbus]

We are now in 1000 bc! My early rule was fairly quiet but trouble may be brewing.

I have included a save with my memoirs to follow shortly ( with more detailed movements included). This sav at least gets more eyes on our current empire.

 

[Nathiri]

tjs up next?

 

[robbus]

So here is my story:

turn 71

Military advisor tells me of Khizik tribe near tronheim and SW arher finds them.. Russian and dutch warriors are in nomansland N of Trond. wounded Curragh runs south while second wounded explores NE.

Trond>worker

Settler moves west to yellow dot

Turn 72
SW archer attacks khizik and gets 25 g. Workers irrigate in trond. Lux slider down 1.

Turn 73
Rejkavik built. curraghs keep moving south and east respectively.

turn 74
settler to blue dot sugar city Trondheim begins court.

turn 75
Ottomans build temple of artemis.
Oslo (blue dot) founded

turn 76
Dutch want mysticism or war... I trade.
Bergen worker roads sugar then irrigates. Science slider increase.

Turn 78 Catherine wants Mapmaking. I reluctantly agree as our military forces are few and inexperienced . I decide to send western hill archers back to homeland.

Aztecs launch a galley which may have a couple of warriors in it. I contact galley but no warriors are seen in it. It is heading west towards us from texoco. Texoco is defended by a spear with a warrior one square N.

Dutch settler and warrior are spotted north of oslo heading west toward mountain on river.

turn 79
I sell horseback riding to dutch for 50g and Russia 26g. Aztecs offer peace and 50g for lit I decline. Arabia offers Kefah and 32g for peace. I don't see how we can use Kefah so I decline. We have 9 turns left in treaty with carthage.
curraghs explore but nothing found.

math in 8 turns.

turn 80

southern Curragh attacked and dies. Aztec galley moves west and disappears. NW archers move home.

Bergen workers irrigate copen hagen worker to forest chop for library (switched from courthouse).

Math in 8.

My turns are over.

 

[choxorn]

tjs up next?

I'd assume so, he's the only one who hasn't played a set yet.

Some thoughts on robbus's set:

-Why did you cave into the demands for Mysticism and Map Making? I almost never give the AI's techs if I can avoid it. Gold is one thing, but they can do their own damn research with the 80% discount they have.

-You mention at one point trying to look into an AI Galley to see what's in it- you know you can't actually see what's inside of an AI transport ship, right?

-Why not hook up the Horses outside Bergen? We could for sure use a few Horsemen.

Speaking of strategic resources, there doesn't seem to be any Iron anywhere close to us, so we'd better hope there's some in the nearby fog that we haven't looked into yet, or we're going to find it hard to get. Luckily, Berzerks don't require Iron, or we'd really be in a world of hurt.

 

[Elephantium]

I don't have any problem with caving to those demands. We're in good shape right now, but a full dogpile by all of our neighbors would cause us some problems.

Hooking up the horses is a very good idea.

How many Workers do we have? It should be 5-6 by now.

Kefah would actually be a decent city site if we have any troops nearby for defense. It gives a canal to the north coast.

 

[tjs282]

tjs up next?

I'll happily take the next turns if no-one has any objection. I clicked on the .sav icon by mistake, so technically I've got it, but the file is currently on my office Mac, which does me no good! I'll re-DL it to my PC when I get home from work this afternoon.

Looks like a good set of turns, Robbus, and I probably would have caved to Cathy's demands as well. There doesn't seem to have been much discussion of research post-Republic (or maybe I overlooked it?), but good that you picked Maths for the next tech-target -- we want to get Construction for Ducts ASAP (if we're tech-leader already, then we can't expect the AIs to research it for us before we need it, so probably better if we can do it ourselves).

Tusker, I count 4 Workers in the screenie and none in production, but Bergen will hit Pop6 in 4T, so it could chuck out its vArcher (in production) then start pumping 2T-Workers at Pop6-7 (it has 3 irrigated (B?)Grass for 5FPT, so getting the 4-5 SPT to go with that shouldn't be a problem). Depending on Lux+LUX%, it may later be able to do 4T Horse+Worker at 5 FPT + 10 SPT at Pop7-8, which would also help with our free-unit limit -- although it will probably need more mined (B)Grass/irrigated Plains for that (I'd have to look at the save to see what it's got available).

Assuming that Kefah is a typo for Kufah, then yes, it would be useful to have it. But could we let the MA expire first (in 8T)? We now also have WH from the Aztecs, so making peace with the Arabs shouldn't hurt us too much (might even help, because if we've been at war with them for >20T, doesn't WW start to kick in?)

Chox, I agree on roading the Horses ASAP. In general, I'd rather have Horses than Iron.

Spoiler Random silliness :

We want a resource, of course, of course.
And no-one would say no to Iron, of course
Swords are useful, of course, but still, the Horse
Lets us kill the AIs dead

So as soon as I can, I'll road that Horse
Then we'll build the fast units Civ-pros endorse
And take on those AIs, on a steady course
Until they're all stone dead!

 

[robbus]

thanks for your inputs. I will try and answer choxorn

I caved on tech trades because we are so thinly defended with only one barracks. I also repatriated western hill archers for same reason.

Ai galley: I wasn't sure about the occupants being shrouded but I saw two warriors enter Toxoco before galley launched. Now I know they are shrouded.

I irrigated sugar tile before roading horse tile as we were using that sugar tile. the workers in Trondheim are across the river, too far to move. I looked at roading to horses every turn.

I looked at deal for Kefah every turn but it seems remote and hard to defend at this point. I could have used the 2 mountain archers to occupy it after peace deal but wouldn't this have tied up 2 units for a hugely corrupt city?

There is a dutch settler/warrior combo heading west past the mountain on the river, towards the kefah area.

Maybe warrior in oslo could look for iron for now.

Worker in copenhaen mine a tile or two maybe?

 

[Spoonwood]

There doesn't seem to have been much discussion of research post-Republic (or maybe I overlooked it?), but good that you picked Maths for the next tech-target -- we want to get Construction for Ducts ASAP (if we're tech-leader already, then we can't expect the AIs to research it for us before we need it, so probably better if we can do it ourselves).

Aqueducts costs 100 shields, the same as a market. Maybe you only end saving a turn or two by researching Currency first, maybe not trading until you pick up Construction, and then picking Construction. Can any of your cities complete an aqueduct in the extra time needed to complete a run on Currency and Construction?

 

[tjs282]

Aqueducts costs 100 shields, the same as a market. Maybe you only end saving a turn or two by researching Currency first, maybe not trading until you pick up Construction, and then picking Construction. Can any of your cities complete an aqueduct in the extra time needed to complete a run on Currency and Construction?

I'm not sure I followed that. Are you suggesting researching Currency ourselves and then trading (hopefully) our monopoly(s) to the first AI to get Construction? That might actually be possible, since the AI tends to go for Construction before Currency, once it gets Maths; question is, which tech would take longer to acquire?

But I'd rather not speed anyone on their way to building/cascading to SoZ by selling Maths around -- especially not Cathy, unless we can be sure of depriving her of it, immediately after completion...

That said, though, I don't want to risk not having Ducts when we'll need them. And that should be soon: I would like to get Trond and our 1st-ringers up to at least Pop7 ASAP, to minimise unit-maintenance costs, but Cope, Reyk, and our 2 other planned towns (2N of Cope and 3NW of Reyk, per Tusker's/my dotmaps) will all need Ducts to do that.

Now we're a Republic, I'm inclined to start irrigating (B)Grass-tiles for fast growth (we can always convert those channels to mines later): if we can give each town 3 irrigated (B)Grass, they'll grow at 5 FPT, so Cope could get to Pop6 (and no food stored) in <11T, and Reyk in <19T, i.e. within the next two turnsets. So I/we could/should start prebuilding Ducts as soon as completion-time = time-to-Pop7 - 1T. If we did this, we would therefore need Construction (with or without Currency first) in ~15T at the earliest.

Reyk also needs a Lib before its Duct, to grab the Fish, and then a Harbour at Pop7 for self-supporting Food+Trade -- and it also needs to be joined to our road-net ASAP, so I'd chop+road the forest 1N of it (1+4+3T; Archer will be finished before the chop comes in), then irrigate+road SW from Trond out to all Reyk's BGrass, to grow it fast -- one of the 2 Workers SW of Bremen should probably go south to do that once it's done doing... whatever it's doing right now (I hope one's roading, one irrigating...). Once Reyk reaches Pop6, as well as working the irrigated (B)Grass, it will still have plenty of Forests we could road (1+6T) or chop+road+mine (= 1+4+3+6T) for Duct-shields...

 

[Spoonwood]

That might actually be possible, since the AI tends to go for Construction before Currency, once it gets Maths; question is, which tech would take longer to acquire?

My memory indicates that construction costs more. Checking some old 4000 BC save with Civ Assist II it gives me an estimate of 1600 for Currency and 2000 for Construction. So, sure Construction takes longer. I had suggested that you prebuild any aqueducts with markets and then trade away Currency for Construction or research it yourself if the AIs don't manage to get there. You can use "what's the big picture" on the last turn also to swap pre-builds if you learn Construction via your own research. I hadn't checked the save and/or payed close enough attention to see that you didn't even know maths yet yourself or that they don't know maths before! But, still maths lies only a handful of turns away.

Here's DaveMcW on AI tech research. The Russians do not know Philosophy which lies ahead of Mathematics. But, Philosophy is cheap and known. The Aztecs have Philosophy and thus may have a fair probability of researching it already. The Ottomans don't even know Iron Working. Carthage has had the ability to research Mathematics since their founding and you're "only" up Literature on them. Alright, maybe they are researching Monarchy instead of Mathematics, since it's a government tech. But the civ III editor tells me their favorite government is a Republic, and they already are one, though I don't know if there exists any sort of connection there with research. Still, maybe they are researching Mathematics. Arabia only lacks Literature and The Republic from what you have. They also prefer a Republic. The Dutch don't know Philosophy, but they do know both Arabia and Russia. Alright, aybe no one is researching Mathematics.

Checking with civ Assist II Construction has an estimated cost of 600 and Currency of 480. Checking with their help forum, that's the number of beakers for self research.

That said, though, I don't want to risk not having Ducts when we'll need them.

Wait... you have 5 cities and 4 native workers and a bunch of shields already invested into a library in your capital with unsettled territory to the south and west (barbarians can have more units rushing at you if you don't settle down there and even tundra towns can produce workers and get a little bit of commerce for your empire in the long run). You've thought about growing vertically, but it seems to me that you can still grow horizontally. And if you want to grow horizontally, don't you want some more military to escort/protect settlers or workers?

And that should be soon: I would like to get Trond and our 1st-ringers up to at least Pop7 ASAP, to minimise unit-maintenance costs, but Cope, Reyk, and our 2 other planned towns (2N of Cope and 3NW of Reyk, per Tusker's/my dotmaps) will all need Ducts to do that.

So you want to get to size 7 before planned towns that you build? Of course vertical growth (population increase) makes for a key metric, but horizontal growth (territorial expansion) in the long run produces horizontal and territorial growth. You need twice the food to grow from size 7 to 8 as you need to grow from size 5 to 6, so doesn't horizontal growth early on also produce more vertical growth early on usually? Is the walk to the south with some settlers and/or workers really that bad? Horizontal growth also reduces unit maintenance costs or you can compensate it for it a bit with some commerce from another city.

If unit support becomes a problem later on to the point that total commerce really gets bad, well you might change things around quickly enough with worker joins, unless you already have all of your cities at size 12.

Once Reyk reaches Pop6, as well as working the irrigated (B)Grass, it will still have plenty of Forests we could road (1+6T) or chop+road+mine (= 1+4+3+6T) for Duct-shields

If you road the forests before chopping them, do you plan on not chopping those forest squares at all in the game, really want that commerce earlier instead of ten shields earlier and saved worker turns, or want a travel route earlier?

 

[tjs282]

My memory indicates that construction costs more
*snip*
Checking with civ Assist II Construction has an estimated cost of 600 and Currency of 480. Checking with their help forum, that's the number of beakers for self research.

That's what I remember too. But my gut feeling is that Ducts are more important than Currency, and no-one's near either of them yet, AFAWK...

Wait... you have 5 cities and 4 native workers and a bunch of shields already invested into a library in your capital with unsettled territory to the south and west (barbarians can have more units rushing at you if you don't settle down there and even tundra towns can produce workers and get a little bit of commerce for your empire in the long run).

Yes we have free territory to the south, but it's mostly cold and icy, so not high-priority for city-sites. And while we would get some commerce and unit-support from towns founded down there, they won't be able to grow for a long time, and will only ever make it to Pop12 after serious shield/gold/food investment (Harbours + Libs + Ducts + Worker-joins); without even a Harbour, they'll top out at Pop3-4 -- if we have a Fish -- otherwise Pop2.

I suppose we could farm it, but why do that while we still have warm, inherently food-rich sites to send our Settlers?

You've thought about growing vertically, but it seems to me that you can still grow horizontally.

Yes we can still spread wider, and I definitely also intend preparing to do that. With the Forest-chop (Worker is waiting to start), Trond should easily finish its Lib on my set, assuming it's getting 6-7SPT like it was last time at Pop5-6, and therefore already has ~30 shields in the box. I can then at least start on another Settler, even if I don't finish it -- which I would then send (or recommend the next player sends) to the 1st-ring spot 2N of Cope (for similar reasons as for Reyk), if we're still at war with the Arabs, or the one near the Whales, if we're not.

Bergen can maybe also pop out another Settler at some point during my set, but founding a new town only increases our free-unit allowance by +1; growing a town to Pop7 increases our allowance by +2, and I believe also increases the city-tile's CPT (for a Coastal city and a SEA-Civ)(?). So growing to Pop7 is also important, and I think we don't need anything else built in Cope right now (maybe a Lib)?

I would also like to get our FP-town started, perhaps upriver from Bergen -- but then definitely only if the Arab war is over. I fear, however, that Willy may be about to claim that spot...

And if you want to grow horizontally, don't you want some more military to escort/protect settlers or workers?

Not really -- given the tech-pace, the barb-uprisings aren't due for a while yet, and in the meantime we can give our reg-units some target practice/experience with Tundra-spawned barbs.

So you want to get to size 7 before planned towns that you build?

No, not necessarily. But Cope's already 'nearly' there (just needs some irrigation), and Reyk can get up to Pop6 relatively quickly, if some/all of its BGrass is irrigated as well. It then has a lot of 2SPT-tiles for building stuff.

Of course vertical growth (population increase) makes for a key metric, but horizontal growth (territorial expansion) in the long run produces horizontal and territorial growth.

I wouldn't be wanting to wait for natural growth above Pop7, no -- especially without a Gran, but Worker-pumping/-joining can/should be used to grow towns fast once they've reached Pop7. Though that would require us to keep Bergen relatively small, until/unless we've secured another possible pump-site (such as Y'burg...?).

If you road the forests before chopping them, do you plan on not chopping those forest squares at all in the game, really want that commerce earlier instead of ten shields earlier and saved worker turns, or want a travel route earlier?

For Reyk, once it's irrigated (which would be relatively quick to do, ahead of growth), the Forest-tiles would be its best source of shields until we've roaded+mined its Hill. But it would be a shame to work Forest-tiles without getting any CPT, hence my suggestion of roading them without chopping first. We can still chop them later (without wasting any Worker-turns getting onto them!), if we need a boost(s) towards a Duct or Market.

As far as the Hills are concerned, 1+6+12T for a single Worker to road+mine is a long wait, and we won't have stacks of 2 or 3 Workers available for 6-11T roading+mining of Hill-tiles for a while yet (and that assumes wasting at least 2 or 3 Worker-turns getting them all onto an unroaded Hill in the first place). Of course, 3 Workers could road 3 separate Hills in 1+6T each, before joining forces to mine those Hills in 4T each, totalling 19T altogether. But Reyk has only 1 Hill...

 

[Spoonwood]

And while we would get some commerce and unit-support from towns founded down there, they won't be able to grow for a long time, and will only ever make it to Pop12 after serious shield/gold/food investment (Harbours + Libs + Ducts + Worker-joins); without even a Harbour, they'll top out at Pop3-4 -- if we have a Fish -- otherwise Pop2.

Up above someone mentioned using Copenhagen for galleys. Maybe that makes for a good idea for a faster attack. But, with it being a high value city it can use a market and an aqueduct to greater effect. I usually think of tundra cities as for workers, settlers, and artillery. But, maybe in this game they can work out for workers, settlers, and galleys or maybe both. That would free up Copenhagen to have a little more time to put in a market and aqueduct. And don't you want 70 shield berzerks from a better city site like Copenhagen also later, so it can really use barracks also? Even if produced later, galleys can quickly catch up. And you will need to fight landlocked cities, so you could concentrate on there first and then go for the coastal spots later on when many of the galleys come from the south. Maybe build them out of wood?

I suppose we could farm it, but why do that while we still have warm, inherently food-rich sites to send our Settlers?

I meant to suggest that you do both. Or better put you prioritize the better spots first and then move south with settlers. That sounds like at least 5 settlers and more workers. A 4 turn settler factory takes 20 turns to put out 5 settlers, and you don't quite have any of those online at the moment.

Bergen can maybe also pop out another Settler at some point during my set, but founding a new town only increases our free-unit allowance by +1; growing a town to Pop7 increases our allowance by +2, and I believe also increases the city-tile's CPT (for a Coastal city and a SEA-Civ)(?).

I see you accounting for unit support and the seafaring trait. I do not see you accounting for the extra commerce (you get at least one for every city founded) you get from founding a city *anywhere* on the map. And I don't know how much will go corrupt here. You also have more food produced per turn empire-wide and an extra shield.

Not really -- given the tech-pace, the barb-uprisings aren't due for a while yet, and in the meantime we can give our reg-units some target practice/experience with Tundra-spawned barbs.

Your opponents include the Ottomans and the Russians. It sounds to me like you want to pass on gifting them up and hopefully using The Republic to trade for hopefully Engineering and/or Feudalism.

We can still chop them later (without wasting any Worker-turns getting onto them!), if we need a boost(s) towards a Duct or Market.

Roading a forest takes six turns instead of three for a flatland. So, to get those turns back you need to have 4 workers to move onto the roaded forest and chop them. Or start a chop and then move in two more workers on the second turn of that chop. But also, for their next job those workers either want to find some multiple of 4 or three, or find multiple squares, such as splitting up into two teams of 2 for mining, or one worker to one spot and three to plant a forest on a square... or manage some other worker movement that makes worker good. So, I guess you can get them back. But, managing that efficiently seems more complicated than managing a single worker. Furthermore, you get those turns back only later, instead of using them sooner. Doing a quick cycle through your cities, Trondheim works a tobacco square which is not fully developed (it doesn't have a road and mining/irrigation). Bergen works two squares one of them not even roaded and another not fully developed. Copenhagen has a roaded bonus grassland not fully developed. Oslo works only a fully developed tile.

So sure you lose commerce by chopping and then roading the forest in Reyk. But, you gain in worker turns earlier on. That's earlier shields/foods/commerce in several city sites for earlier commerce in Reyk. And you probably will have Engineering soon enough, which opens up more worker possibilities.

I wouldn't be wanting to wait for natural growth above Pop7, no -- especially without a Gran, but Worker-pumping/-joining can/should be used to grow towns fast once they've reached Pop7.

I've read about this and rarely done it. Even when I've set a 1 turn worker pump, I just don't seem to do it or do so sparingly if you mean middle age add ins. Maybe just my preference without much reason behind it. It might be better, and there probably exists some variation depending on map type and needs which works out best, which I don't understand. I guess here's the tradeoff... you get 1 or 2 shields earlier, some commerce for each worker join, and less unit support. You might also lose commerce since you might have to raise the luxury slider another tick to maintain happiness. But, you have less ability to plant forests, chop them, road, mine, and/or irrigate (and potentially rail or clean pollution even) later on.

Joining in workers from size 7 to 12 only pairs off with topping off a city. You won't have as much ability to set up specialist farms or produce settlers or workers quickly from captured city sites via some some nice chops. I guess you guys won't have a rail project also, so you have less need to maintain a strong work force.

Does there exist more reason than just the food as to why Russia wanted that wheat spot? Does there exist rubber or uranium in one of the forest spots in what would be it's fat X if Oslo didn't exist.

 

[choxorn]

FWIW, I probably would have also given the Dutch Mysticism because that's a really cheap, low-value tech, but I'm less sure about Map Making.

 

[robbus]

FWIW: We have no defense against Russia at that time. Warrior and a few archers plus undefended cities. Too risky for me. If I had denied request then all our resources would go against war on Russia. First to adequately defend ourselves and second to take Yektarinaburg.

Maybe Russian bear is not that strong now but overall strategy is to use our future military advantage with Berzerkers to overwhelm all in our path. Why waste resources fighting Russians? Plus war with Aztecs and arabs? Not on my watch.

Maybe I am kidding myself as was N chamberlain "peace for our time" mapmaking deal. But it seemed risky to refuse and risk more enemies.

I think we are biding our time now. That was my thinking

 

[tjs282]

OK, this is now my official Gottit.

I have had a look at the save, and these are my reactions:

Cities

Trondheim (Gran, no garrison):
Building Lib at 5SPT (36s in box, 10s expected from Forest-chop in 4T after the IBT), will grow in 2T at 5FPT, wasting no food and should probably stay happy at Pop6 with current LUX% and WW, producing 6SPT for the Lib in ~5T rather than 9T. But Pop7 may not be sustainable without more LUX%, and current SPT + chop will waste shields, so I'm thinking to reduce the FPT once at Pop6 (by working the riverside Forests), slowing growth but finishing the Lib faster, then build a Settler in 4-6T as the food-box finishes refilling (for the spot 2N of Copenhagen). That will take some juggling, to ensure the chop-shields aren't wasted.

Bergen (Gran + Rax, rArcher):
Building vArcher at 4SPT, but has 5s already in the box, also growing at 3FPT, but with a Gran, so will waste 2 food and most of the shields on the growth-turn. Careful MM also needed here! Horses should be roaded+mined ASAP

I was however rather to find that both Bergen's Workers are roading that riverside Grass (not even a BG!), a 3T job for 1 Worker, and will be done in 2T. This means that 1 Worker-turn (of our only 4 Workers!) has been wasted here, but if I take one of them off roading right now, the job will go back up to 3T, and I still won't be able to move the free Worker before the next turn. So I'll leave them to finish, but then split them up (sending 1 to Reykjavik).

Spoiler Rant :

In a solo-game, non-IND Workers should never start roading open flatland in pairs! They should either work alone (1+3T), or the second should arrive/start roading 1T later, or in extremis (e.g. if a nearby town will otherwise grow before there are improved tiles to work), they arrive together, but one builds a road (1+3T) while the other irrigates/mines (1 + 4-6T). Although the latter also wastes 1 Worker-turn, the road is at least ready for the second Worker to depart along when he gets done -- and the tile is ready for the new-born citizen that much sooner.

Copenhagen (Harbour, no garrison):
Building a vGalley in 6T at 3SPT with 12s in the box but growing at 3FPT with 13f stored meaning that the last 2f on growth (in 3T) will be wasted without MM. Not sure what to do here, maybe 1T at 3FPT, then go fishing for 2FPT, but more CPT (will slow the Galley-build, though...)

Oslo (rAxe + rArcher):
Building a rSpear(!) in in 15T at 1 SPT, but will grow in 2T at 3FPT, wasting 1f. I think I'd rather build something else --anything else! -- here. Since we're drowning in unit-upkeep, maybe switch the Spear-build to a Courthouse (either as an FP-prebuild, or to speed any further builds), and send the garrisoned Warrior out exploring the Mountain(s?) in that black fog just to the north (there should be at least 1 Mountain, where that river starts).

With all those shields available (after we road+irrigate all the Plains), Oslo could really use a Rax as well, but not until its CPT is high enough to pay the maintenance...

Reykjavik (vArcher):
The only town where no MM is needed! Will finish its rArcher in 3T at 2SPT (14s in box) and also grow in 3T at 2FPT (+14f). After that, a Lib I think, while I road and irrigate it...?

Diplo

War with Abu +Monty, PTs with everyone else, MA with Hanni vs. Abu (8T left). We have Embassies in Amsterdam, Moscow, Carthage and Istanbul, and have not met one Civ.

Like Robbus, I would also prefer to stay out of any more hot wars until we have a better military (we're still Weak vs everyone except the Ottos), so am inclined to cave to any further Russian/Dutch demands for gold/tech. But what can we most easily bear to give up? Philo? Poly? And more to the point, what shouldn't we give away, even if refusing to cave leads to war?

Techs

We are tech-leader, needing 'only' Maths, Currency and Construction to get Medieval on the AIs. Dutch, Russians + Aztecs are missing Poly (Ottos have it), Dutch + Russians miss Phil, Russians also need CoL. (Ottomans still lack Wheel, Writing and IronWork!) Of the optionals, everyone we've met still lacks Lit, and without Philo/Poly, most are also missing Monarchy+Rep (but since they've ignored IronWork in favour of the CBurial --> Poly branch, the Ottos may actually be researching Monarchy right now, which could get them nearly everything else in trades...)

Wonders

Under construction:
Pyramids in Amsterdam and Tenochtitlan
ToA in Iznik (Ottoman)
EDIT: Oracle in Moscow

Completed:
Colossus in Amsterdam (but wasn't Willy supposed to have been switched to building GLight for us? Or not until Monty finishes the Pyramids?)

I'll start playing my turns 'tomorrow' (i.e. 26th April, but after I've slept!) evening.

 

[Spoonwood]

In a solo-game, non-IND Workers should never start roading open flatland in pairs!

That seems a bit of a strong statement and I feel tempted to think of exceptions (without considering variants). I will say again, exceptions. Consider the following:

1. What could be the benefit of hooking up uranium a turn or two sooner?

2. What could be the benefit of hooking up oil a turn sooner?

3. What could be the benefit of hooking up rubber a turn or two sooner?

4. What could be the benefit of having increased travel routes a turn sooner on a particular square? Can military travel faster to a key location? Can a key settler travel faster to a very high value destination sight and you really do need to save time for that city?

And...

5. What could be the benefit of hooking up coal a turn or two sooner?

 

[choxorn]

On giving in to tech demands: I'd say most we could live with giving away, but absolutely don't give the Russians Math if at all possible, so we don't have to deal with Ancient Cavalry coming at us in the future. It might be that they have the only Ivory in the world and getting Statue of Zeus is inevitable, but if so I'd prefer to at least delay them a bit.

@Spoonwood: True, but generally when I hit the IA everything's already roaded anyway and I already have a source of Coal/Rubber/Oil/Uranium/Aluminum hooked up if I have any in my territory to begin with- and if not, I can probably easily send enough workers to build a road in one turn by that point. It matters mostly for early-game situations, not late-game situations.

 

[Lanzelot]

My comments: actually, I think that robbus played a very good turnset! Caving in to the demands was definitely the correct decision, we can't afford a second war against a near-by neighbor at the moment. Giving Map Making to Russia doesn't hurt at all: they are closeby, so if they build the Lighthouse it would still be ok for us. (Amsterdam seems to be busy with the Pyramids for a long time to come now, so we can't rely on them. But still please remember: if Tenochtitlan/Moscow happens to finish the Pyramids before Amsterdam, immediately gift Map Making to the Dutch!! If we are lucky, Amsterdam then cascades into the Lighthouse.)

The only point of critique is worker management. Here robbus' inexperience can still be felt, but not too much damage has been done yet. Here my tips on what could have been improved:

• Yes, the two workers building a road wasted a two full worker turns (one for an unnecessary move onto an unroaded tile, and one because a job that takes only 3 worker turns is done in 2x2 = 4 worker turns). It would have been better, if one of these workers had been moved to the BG to build a road. Then, when both roades are finished, both workers can pair up and build a mine/irrigation on both tiles without loss of time.
• Before chopping that forest for Trondheim, that worker should first have irrigated the BG for Copenhagen. As tjs already noted: Copenhagen is wasting food now. With +4fpt it grows much smother than with the odd +3fpt.
• And most importantly: you irrigated the wrong tile! The one with the question mark should get a mine, while the one with the exclams should get the irrigation!! So that is 4 wasted turns here.
  
  
  
  
  
  Why is that? Well, at the moment it doesn't matter, but once we are in Golden Age, we get lots of extra shields, if we irrigate the Bonus Grasslands instead of the ordinary Grasslands! (Just imagine a town of size 6 with 3 Grass and 3 BGrass. If we mine the BGrass and irrigate the Grass, we'll get 6 shields total and 9 shields total during GA. If we irrigate the BGrass and mine the Grass, we also get 6 shields total but 12 shields total during GA!)

Also I don't understand: why do we have Barracks in Bergen?? Bergen is going to work as a 2-turn worker factory for at least the next 50 to 60 turns. So the barracks there is basically wasted, we should disband it.

Other recomendations for the next build projects:

• Copenhagen is fine with producing 1-2 Galleys now. There is still time before it will need an Aqueduct or Market. After all: we need to find the Byzantines soon, if we want to get a shot at their freebee during era change.
• We don't want any regular units now anymore, so the Archer and Spearman in Reykjavik and Oslo can be changed to something more useful. I'd say Library (with two chops), Harbor and Aqueduct in Reykjavik and Barracks plus vet Archers/Horsemen in Oslo.
• Bergen: yes, finish the vet Archer now, then disband the Barracks and produce 2-turn Workers at size 6-7. (We still need that one BG irrigated there.)
• Trondheim: I agree with tjs: speed up the Library by reducing food a bit, and then try to get it smoothly into the 4-turn settler-cycle at size 5-7, when the Lib is finished. We need probably around 10 more settlers, before we can grow "vertically".

Regarding War Happiness: we did not have any losses at all against the Arabs, so we should still have the full 30 points. So don't make peace, even for that Kufah town. I once played a game, where someone attacked me quite early on in the 3000s BC, and I kept that WH alive for the rest of the game... In our situation with only one luxury resource, this is particularly important! So no peace with the Arabs and the Aztecians, unless some catastrophe forces us to make peace...