Tl:dr OR ethical determinism equations

[Kyriakos]

I once had a discussion with a hardcore spiritualist, and she claimed that (something which amazed me due to its cruelty) people who are born with genetic deformities are this way because they did something horrible in a previous life, and thus now have to cleanse the negative energy by suffering in their turn.

At first i was almost enraged by this view. It seems such a cruel thing to claim, and anyone who ever felt miserable will know that hearing such a view could help him in no way at all. In fact it could even do him harm.

Then i thought that having such a view must be really soothing for her, to think that there exists an ethically-based determinism in regards to who suffers and how much; it would seem to allow her to be of the view that she won't ever meet any serious harm.

But ultimately it appeared shortsighted. Of course anyone can play games with thoughts and come up with systems of thinking in which the variables are arranged in such a way so as to lead to one or other conclusion. But it seems that too many variables have to be either put aside, or incorrectly assessed, for such a conclusion to appear.

TL: DR: What would you think if faced with the argument that suffering is an equation of wrong-doing in past lives? And does such a view have anything positive in your opinion, or is it just a crude defense mechanism for the person holding it?

 

[azzaman333]

What would you think if faced with the argument that suffering is an equation of wrong-doing in past lives? And does such a view have anything positive in your opinion, or is it just a crude defense mechanism for the person holding it?

If that's person X's belief, good for them, but as far as I'm concerned it's a load of bollocks.

 

[Mise]

I think such views are dangerous, offensive and wrong.

 

[Artifis]

This screams "defence mechanism" to me.

I like to apply Occam's Razor. Get rid of all the assumptions, and what's left is the best possibility.

 

[plarq]

I would abort my unborn child if the fetus is deformed.

 

[aronnax]

I think this is a perfectly valid belief than isn't good or bad. If you believe in a system in which your next life depends on how well you have behaved in this life, that means you have included yourself in it as well. The misfortunes that befall on others might fall on you if you yourself were 'sinful'. Though this woman seems to be using it as a way to defend herself rather than thinking she can herself suffer from it.

 

[BvBPL]

A spiritualist? Like a Theosophical one?

 

[emzie]

I think this is a perfectly valid belief than isn't good or bad. If you believe in a system in which your next life depends on how well you have behaved in this life, that means you have included yourself in it as well. The misfortunes that befall on others might fall on you if you yourself were 'sinful'.

It is harmful, since you now have justification to be biased against anyone born with defects. It's a pretty messed up view to take towards others, however reassuring it might have been to the lady.

 

[Synobun]

If this were true, I was Hitler in my past life.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think this is a perfectly valid belief than isn't good or bad. If you believe in a system in which your next life depends on how well you have behaved in this life, that means you have included yourself in it as well. The misfortunes that befall on others might fall on you if you yourself were 'sinful'.

True, yet if this system of thought is false then the believer in it runs the very serious risk of having his/her view of the cosmos destroyed if met with some severe, or even severing, misfortune.

In ancient Greece there was the saying "Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει" (Syn Athena kai cheira kinei" which means "along with (faith in) Athena, move your own hands as well".
Basically the meaning was that one should not only rely on faith, but be careful too.

It just struck me that this person had a very cruel view. Another of her views was that obese people are sick by virtue of being obese, and therefore they cannot function properly. Not sure how logical this is, Ionesco and De Chirico were borderline obese and appeared to be intelligent and sensitive people.

 

[NovaKart]

I thought this was going to be a post arguing against internet abbreviations. I don't know most of them and a lot of times I sit around wondering what AFAIK means and other things. I still don't know what tl:dr means. I don't like them and I'm surprised to see a writer using them.

 

[Kyriakos]

A spiritualist? Like a Theosophical one?

You hit the nail on the head. In fact she once claimed she could discuss things with Blavatchky (the founder of the theosophical movement)
I assume she meant that she had apparitions of that spiritualist of old.

 

[Kyriakos]

I thought this was going to be a post arguing against internet abbreviations. I don't know most of them and a lot of times I sit around wondering what AFAIK means and other things. I still don't know what tl:dr means. I don't like them and I'm surprised to see a writer using them.

It was a ploy to get more attention to the thread

TLDR= Too long, didn't read

 

[aronnax]

It is harmful, since you now have justification to be biased against anyone born with defects. It's a pretty messed up view to take towards others, however reassuring it might have been to the lady.

I don't think so. I don't know what Hindi scriptures says but in my head, a good man gives goodness and kindness to all men, regardless of what they have done in a previous life. Surely, if you are cruel to even those who have 'received their punishment' aren't you damning yourself to the same faith?

True, yet if this system of thought is false then the believer in it runs the very serious risk of having his/her view of the cosmos destroyed if met with some severe, or even severing, misfortune.

True, then that person will have to think about what he could have done and try to do good in this life to be reincarnated in a better life.

It just struck me that this person had a very cruel view. Another of her views was that obese people are sick by virtue of being obese, and therefore they cannot function properly. Not sure how logical this is, Ionesco and De Chirico were borderline obese and appeared to be intelligent and sensitive people.

Well this woman is clearly quite judgmental.

 

[Perfection]

I believe we have a moral obligation to help people in these situations, if this view says we don't, then we have a problem beyond the weirdness of the view itself.

 

[Artifis]

Then i thought that having such a view must be really soothing for her, to think that there exists an ethically-based determinism in regards to who suffers and how much; it would seem to allow her to be of the view that she won't ever meet any serious harm.

You're assuming her thoughts for her. It somebody is born with three arms I suppose to her that person probably committed incest in his previous life. So what happens the day she gets knocked by a car and has to amputate her arm? I'd like to see her reason herself out of that situation.

I think this is a perfectly valid belief than isn't good or bad. If you believe in a system in which your next life depends on how well you have behaved in this life, that means you have included yourself in it as well. The misfortunes that befall on others might fall on you if you yourself were 'sinful'. Though this woman seems to be using it as a way to defend herself rather than thinking she can herself suffer from it.

I disagree completely with you I'm afraid.

Why this view is flawed on a personal level:
She can only too easily extrapolate from this view that whatever befalls her (or blesses her) is due to something she's done in her past. It's a very laissez-faire personal ideology which is lazy and brings her to believe that ultimately there's nothing she can do to change her fate. I deplore such intellectual laziness.

Why this view is flawed on in relation to others:
As a result of this view she then has easy ammunition against others based simply on their looks. At best she views genetically deformed people with pity

"Oh you must have done something wrong in your past life. You poor thing. You better atone for it"

At worst she views them with contempt:

"You disgusting creature. What terrible sin did you commit?"

It makes her quite an unpleasant person to deal with, because she explicitly judges your character based on how you look, and no matter what you say you won't change her opinion that you must've done something wrong previously.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Magical thinking is widespread in many religions and serves as a convenient excuse for many inconsistencies within them, as well as scapegoats for certain forms of oppression. I have even heard a rabbi claim that the victims of 9/11 had it coming. It is indeed loathsome.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I think this is a perfectly valid belief than isn't good or bad. If you believe in a system in which your next life depends on how well you have behaved in this life, that means you have included yourself in it as well. The misfortunes that befall on others might fall on you if you yourself were 'sinful'. Though this woman seems to be using it as a way to defend herself rather than thinking she can herself suffer from it.

You assign far more consistency to religious beliefs and actions than they deserve.

 

[Perfection]

I think one thing that we must restrain ourselves on though here is the tendency to put words in people's mouths that they might not actually agree with. For instance, just because one views that said tragedies might actually be just doesn't mean that view we should sit idly by as they occur, or treat those who have suffered it without compassion.

We're remarking on some person's weird belief without discussing it with said person. That's a recipe for making up all sorts of baloney that a person doesn't believe in.

 

[BvBPL]

You hit the nail on the head. In fact she once claimed she could discuss things with Blavatchky (the founder of the theosophical movement)
I assume she meant that she had apparitions of that spiritualist of old.

I think that fact tells you all you need to know about how reliable your associate is as a moral guidepost.

That said, if you accept as an article of faith that the soul is reincarnated through a series of lifetimes with the goal of becoming a more perfect being then you do need some means to explain why persons of limited abilities exist. Assuming that you accept the reincarnation system outlined above, the statement of your associate is a logical resolution of this dilemma, although I hasten to add that other explainations also exist.