TLM01 - Apocalypse Now

[SimpleMonkey]

Keeping on pushing for Republic makes sense. If played right, it should be enough to shoot us into the next age, and if we do some canny trades with the other scientific civs, we may even be able to score a second tier tech for our freebie.

Agree now in retrospect that the minimum run on research should have been enough. I'm so used to cranking up the beakers to get ahead that I didn't account for our poor commerce and city count. Anyway, we still have plenty of cash on hand for the upgrades, and are still in a position to trade for more.

One note -- we're limited in our methods of starting war with anyone. I suppose that aggressive settling is somewhere in the grey zone of what's allowed. Good thing that we can count on Fred to feel like fighting sooner or later.

Agree with not launching the hell-fire boats until we're safely in Monarchy. That doesn't mean we can't build them, though.

 

[choxorn]

Then forget what I said, but it won't make much of a difference has you can cash rush in Monarchy too if you have enough excess cash.

 

[TimBentley]

710(0): Okay, China and Netherlands are backwards but are up a government tech
contacts: Persia: Carthage, Netherlands, Spain
China: Spain
Spain: China, Persia, Carthage, Greece
Vikings: Babylon, Mongols
Netherlands: Persia
Babylon: Vikings, France(war)
Carthage: Spain, Greece
Aztecs: none
Greece: Spain, Carthage, France
Mongols: Vikings
France: Babylon (war), Greece
and yes, we have embassies with everyone
current deals: republic for math, HBR, poly, 880g
monarchy for math, philo, CoL, MM, HBR, 664g
I think I'll wait for at least one to become nonmonopoly (Persia buying republic? a new contact by someone?); currency and construction also still not known, I guess Babylon or France will go for that
min research is too long, so 0% or 100% research?
research would cost less than buying since it costs >4/3 research cost
republic I guess costs maybe 3500g, 1750 after nonmonopoly, so paying cash may not be necessary
on the other hand if Persia gets republic they may sell math and HBR for it, so I'll go with 100%
monarchy I guess would be slightly less

get an extra shield in Varna, an extra gold in Heraclea

IBT: Paris builds MoM
Constantinople warrior->worker
Adrianople warrior->warrior

690(1): zzz

IBT: China demands philosophy, Spain has it anyways; give in
Spain starts ToA
Aztecs, Greeks, Mongols start Great Lighthouse
China starts Hanging Gardens
Persia starts SoZ, ToA
Smyrna harbor->rax
Varna rax->warrior

670(2): finally figured out why it wasn't asking for builds, why was manage production on?
some trade routes are available

IBT: Constantinople worker->warrior
Adrianople warrior->worker

650(3): France learns monarchy
buy monarchy from China for math, CoL, MM, 206g
revolt, get 5 turns

IBT: Greece demands CoL, I give in

630(4): zzz

IBT: France starts Hanging Gardens

610(5): zzz

590(6): zzz

IBT: Mongols declare war on Vikings
China starts Great Lighthouse
Orleans builds ToA

570(7): sell CoL to Vikings for worker, 131g

IBT: become a monarchy
Spain starts Great Lighthouse
China starts Hanging Gardens, Great Lighthouse

550(8): apparently Greece learned construction and traded it to France for monarchy; both are well known
I'll stop here, since it's turn 100
I would sell monarchy to Carthage for construction, 152g (they wouldn't throw in horses, so it's a good price)

Notes: Babylon would pay 336g and 23gpt for monarchy, but wouldn't throw in horses
I haven't significantly micromanaged, so go ahead and do so
Netherlands might trade republic for just monarchy; I'm wondering if they might trade it to Spain for construction and polytheism (on that note, I'm thinking saving money would be better than research now) (edit: I don't think they know Spain)

 

[PaGe]

Well done, TimBentley. We are in Monarchy now .

I agree with you about the deals with Carthage and the Babylonian. France has Monarchy and could sell it to the Babylonian else. Add a ROP to the Deal with the Babylonian to be sure that they don´t attack us. And then prepare the war with Mongols. They are annoyed now.
We have 12 vet. Warrior already. Perhaps we should abandon some of our dinkeys since we have to pay for them now.

Roster:
ThERaT (is on)
M60A3TTS (on deck)
PaGe
SimplyMonkey
TimBentley

D'Art please tell us, when you have time. We will space you in then.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

I got a bit lost. Looks like Tim had a good turnset -- he pulled off a government change waaayyy before I thought we'd get one. But are we still researching Republic, or have we bailed out of that project to start on something else? It pains me to think of throwing out the shields. If we can get Republic on our own, the others may still be backward enough that we can do a round robin of trades to get us into the next age.

One good thing about the map filling up is that the PhD barb pressence is going to go way down.

An ROP with Babylon will not do much to deter them from attacking if the AI's turn-by-turn decision-making puts them on the warpath. It often just means that we can't order them off our island if they land troops. Having annoyed Mongols next door, on the other hand ...

And I wouldn't disband the dinkyboats. As soon as they make their way back home, they will get a new paint job and some hell-fire cannons.

 

[ThERat]

looking good. I will look at the world and check how knows whom...then trade. The Mongol war is a blessing...but we can't declare war ourselves.

By the way, I think getting a war through 'demand you leave the territory' is a bit explotative in this game, suggest we do not do that. However, if the Mongols come and demand stuff, I would declare...

Got it, play tonight

 

[SimpleMonkey]

I don't think we can use the Leave or Die option to get someone to declare, but I would think that refusing a demand would be allowed. Let them be the ones to ring the alarm bell.

Fred is likely just going to use the war with Sven to destroy the Viking village on the NE tundra peninsula. I can't imagine that he'll be able to mount much of a sea invasion. But the war with Sven might at least convince him to ship a bunch of troops off to die overseas. That's not a bad thing for us.

 

[PaGe]

We still research on Republic. No beakers lost.

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
get construction and 152 from Carthage for monarchy
sell monarchy to Babs for all his gold (300+) and 23gpt

Why are we researching republic on max when we clearly can get the same timing with min research???
employ a single scientist and we make 52gpt

1.530BC
trying to slowly get back our dingies

2.510BC
Persia finished SoZ
we add 2 more warriors to our stock

IT hmm, Persia demands construction, think for a while but give in

3.490BC
zzz

4.470BC
Babs are rich, sell them construction for 125gold and 30gpt

5.450BC
we produce another settler

6.430BC
zzz

7.410BC
add another settler

IT Carthage finishes the Great Lighthouse and France th Great Wall

8.390BC
zzz

IT backwards Aztecs demand polytheism, ok, I will give in again

9.370BC
our trading position is getting worse as 4 AI's know republic already and we got nothing to offer to them
found 2 new cities

IT that was clear, Dutch demand 100gold, give in yet again

10.350BC
we have already 22 warriors that can be upgraded. I wanted to build markets, but nobody has currency yet, neither does anyone have literature
we will get republic in 4, have 2380gold and make 83gpt

I started a dromon and cats, we should settle some more spots and hope for an arrogant demand by Mongols. I feel we should soon hook up the iron and upgrade our warriors

 

[M60A3TTS]

OK, I got it. PaGe on deck.

 

[M60A3TTS]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/TLM_150_BC.SAV

330BC- Curragh movement

310BC- Quiet

290BC- More quiet. Start working to connect the iron.

270BC- Dutch have literature and start TGL. Republic in. Start currency at max. Due in 12.

250BC- Quiet

230BC- Iron hooked up. Upgrade 16 vet warriors

210BC- Quiet. 4 civs now with lit. France building TGL.

190BC- Upgrade a curragh to dromon.

170BC- China is first to currency.

150BC- Trade Spain Republic for currency, literature and 10 gold. Bummer, we got mono as our freebie. Caesarea is starving but has food for a few turns. Start temple there. Next up can decide to rush it in a few turns if you want.

Post turn: No other civs have a middle age tech, so we’re back to being tech leader again. We're not so toothless anymore, so giving into any demand is not necessary.

 

[ThERat]

Post turn: No other civs have a middle age tech, so we’re back to being tech leader again. We're not so toothless anymore, so giving into any demand is not necessary.

I agree with this, we should now be much bolder...if only the Mongols would declare. Maybe we try and get chivalry + acquire horses and build up a force of knights.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Again, going for Chivalry is not the path of wisdom usually, but it could work here. On the other hand, feudalism is a hot tradable tech in itself (though I'd put an American dollar down to bet that that's what Babs pops as his freebie), and MedInf hit pretty hard without us having to humble ourselves for horses (or spend so much more time building them). A second mass upgrade to macemen could be quite useful. Or we could work our way across the top half of the tech tree to snag the less popular/more tradable techs and bargain our way along the bottom.

If we've got Lit, our culture builds should be our half-price libraries. We love libraries.

My thought would be to build up enough of a hell-fire boat fleet to take a bite out of Babs next time he barks.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Oh, and it looks like PaGe is up and I'm in the batter's cage.

 

[M60A3TTS]

My thought would be to build up enough of a hell-fire boat fleet to take a bite out of Babs next time he barks.

Our priority for unit builds needs to be focused on the Mongols. Once our only threat is removed from our lands, we can concern ourselves with overseas campaigns.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

I think that this might be the longest I've ever seen Fred go without declaring war on somebody. Why's Babylon the tough guy in this one? Anyway, I hate to see 16 swords sitting around on their shields.

Are we in agreement to start turning down demands, at least from nearby folks that we could actually reach in less than 20 turns at sea?

 

[PaGe]

I just had a look at the game:

First thing: We have over 1700 gold .
Heraclea musst be changed cause the forest gets chopped next turn. A courthouse will be good.
I change Caesarea to a worker til the surrounding area needs some improvements. Why the cat stands unguarded outside Caesarea?
Constantinople should space a lib in. Can be done in 3.
Does the aqueduct in Nivaea make sence at this point? I think it will keep beneath 7, because of unhappiness (at size 4 there are 2 happy and 2 unhappy). I would change it to a courthouse or temple.

The Babs lack currency to the next era, hope they get engineering als freebie. But I think we won´t have that much luck. We get Feudalism in 20 turns.

The policy we should follow is difficult.
The Babs seem to be to big for us.
A war with a far away enemy will give us war-happiness but this would be a war we can't really fight.
A war with scandinavia should be an option since they cannot reach us without risk and have an own island to conquer. Then we have to go for astronomy as fast as possible to invade. Unfortunately this would make the mongols happier and the war wih them will move far away.
War with mongols is the goal, so every demand must be refused.

What do you think about telling the mongols to withdraw. They have a galley in our territory. That`s within the rules, isn´t it?

I´ll wait some hours for comment before start playing.

 

[ThERat]

What do you think about telling the mongols to withdraw. They have a galley in our territory. That`s within the rules, isn´t it?

a bit too corny I'd say and we discussed this already...we should wait for them to come and declare

 

[PaGe]

Preturn:
changes mentioned above.
Don't advice the mongols to withdraw.
And another comment. Sardica was found on the bonus grasland. That's in a 3xx3 grid, but a lost shield.

IBT:nothing special

turn1: found Dyrrachium

IBT: Babs send a settler to the open space in the north. A settlement from us would have been better.

turn2: connect the 2nd incense. Could trade to the carthagian for 68 gold + 6 gpt, but decided to wait for a trade with the Babs in 2 turns (then their 30 gpt-Deal expires).

IBT: Mongols and Scandinavia signed a peace treaty. Our war comes near.
The Bab settler moves further north, not in the free space. Perhaps because I've moved the silk-spear to open the passage. I will build a settler to fill the space at the Bab-city.
Const. builds lib.. After that an temple. It get's 15 shields then (-> sword or dromon in 2R)

turn3:
Transfer several sowrds to Dyrrachium. The mongol has several units near (4 swords, 2 spears, 1 archer).

IBT: zzz

turn4:
The babs don't wanna give us something for our silks or incense.
The carthage get silks for 128 gold + 3 gpt. The incense is kept for a present to the babs while we have war with mongols.
We are now runing at -44 gpt

IBT China has Feudalism. We have it in 14.

turn5:zzz

IBT: Greece has engineering. Montheism only known by Persia. Babs still in the ancient era.

turn6: Settler towards north.

IBT: Persia and Greece have traded techs. With us they didn't wanted to trade.

turn7:Spear back to blockade the silk-bridge. Our Settler near settling spot.

IBT: Const. build temple. Now swords every 2.

turn8:zzz

IBT: chinese start Sun Tzu

turn9: Septum found,

IBT:Dutch also start ST

turn10: dinky II back home. The 2 Dromons are heading to the other side of our island.

Our army compared to:
spain = strong
netherland = average
aztec = weak
china = average
Persia = weak
carthage = average
greece = average
mongols = weak
Babylon = weak
France = weak
Scandinavia = average (and they are still in Despotism )

Militia:
18 sowrds,
12 spears
11 cats
5 Dromons
(+ some old units)

 

[PaGe]

SimpleyMonkey is on, TimBentley on deck.