TNT Files Term 7 - 9

I’ll ask again – why the heck would anyone want Printing Press? Am I missing something here? I would tell them that we are really not interested in Printing Press and would prefer to sell our techs for gold/luxuries than that.

Proposed research plan – TNT researches Invention now. We trade Theology for Invention. MIA researches Gunpowder and Chemistry while TNT turns research off (build marketplaces!!!). We sell them Gunpowder and Chemistry for luxuries plus gold – they will be sold at well below cost, especially if TNT is still at war.

After that, it gets a little hazy. I would like MIA to do Metallurgy and Military Tradition while TNT does Physics. The problem is we need to give them Education and Astronomy to do Physics, and I am reluctant to bring them much past Education before either KISSNuts have Education or the Great Library has been built.
 
I might be able to be available for the chat... Depends on how long my errands take after work. I will definitely be available around three hours after the time GG mentioned.

I thought TNT's first mention of Printing Press was an error. Apparently it wasn't. So they are serious about going for Democracy.
 
PP is a useless tech since we both know each other and we really do not need to trade maps with each other so I see no need for it. This is weird since PP should really be a required tch not an optional one.
 
I will be late for the meeting if I can be there at all - I assume greekguy means it will be at 6:30 PM EDT, and he has his GMT wrong. I don't expect to be home until 7:00 EDT at the earliest.

One additional item to ask about (it doesn't actually have to be at this meeting but sometime) - where is the road from Mezzonotte Keep to their homeland being constructed, and is it OK if our observer uses the portion of it not in TNT territory to speed our journey, or will that interfere with TNT's movements?
 
Sadly, the meeting will be too early for me to attend also.

It's possible I'll be able to sorta check in from work… but I won't be able to be the point person... more like a sniper from the sidelines if anything.

I'd also like to second the idea of getting TNT started on Invention ASAP. Game events will have a lot to say after that… but I think that's a very good starting place.
(And please, please, please, talk them out of Printing Press! Gah! What a waste of time and gold!)

EDIT: in case anyone else goes looking for this: it appears Greekguy's AIM buddyname is "Tidalwave178"
Found that in our first TNT embassy thread.
 
What's the latest on this? I'm home and signed on - donsig is online, but fe3333au and greekguy are not...
 
I've been online for the past several hours - no sign of Fe or Greekguy... assuming I've got the AIM right.
 
I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, but donsig and I are chatting... I sent him an IM mainly because I didn't want MIA to be accused of not showing up, and he suggested we talk some more. The transcript so far:

What's going on?
Chamnix GA: Hi donsig
donsigw: hello!
Chamnix GA: I thought there was supposed to be a big pow-wow tonight...
donsigw: with greekguy?
Chamnix GA: greek guy and fe3333au
donsigw: I usually chat with fe333au on AIM but it seems to be too early for him
Chamnix GA: greekguy sent us a letter saying tonight was good for him, and I thought fe3333au said it was OK for him too
donsigw: Isn't fe3333au in Australia?
donsigw: Probably morning there
Chamnix GA: yeah, but he keeps strange hours..
donsigw: so do I - that's why I can chat with him
Chamnix GA: lol
donsigw: he's off line right now
Chamnix GA: him and greekguy both
Chamnix GA: I guess it's not happening tonight

Let's talk anyway
donsigw: we can chat :-)
Chamnix GA: ok
Chamnix GA: I guess we need to talk about research strategy for one thing
donsigw: yes
donsigw: trying to get on the forums and having a little trouble

Research
Chamnix GA: we don't think there is a lot of need for either of us to get printing press
donsigw: ok - I thought it would be good since it's a pre-req for democracy (isn't it>?)
Chamnix GA: it is
Chamnix GA: you think you want to change to demo?
donsigw: well we all do eventually!
donsigw: the thing is we're not in a position to start research yet
Chamnix GA: understood
Chamnix GA: any enemies in sight?
donsigw: if you all are almost done with education then your next choices are invention or something after education
Chamnix GA: right
donsigw: we can do education or theology.
donsigw: it would take us 21 turns to get invention
donsigw: I need a few minutes - gotta do a little work - will not be long
Chamnix GA: ok
Click to expand...
 
Here's the rest - I will edit and comment when my girlfriend lets me back on :whipped:

Back
donsigw: still there?
Chamnix GA: yep
donsigw: Ok, I can go back to my dinner and our talk :-)
Chamnix GA: no talking with your mouth full ;-)
donsigw: lol

Invention
donsigw: now, I think I was saying that it would take us 21 turns to research invention
donsigw: that's way too long so I'm hoping you guys will be researching that path - we may need gunpowder
donsigw: that's why I suggested we do printing press - because we only need to get theology from you in order to start it
donsigw: if we wanted to research something else then we'd need both theology and education from you and we haven't much to offer for both

Democracy
Chamnix GA: I can't speak for my team, but I don't think democracy is that much better than Republic
Chamnix GA: for 2000+ beakers and 7+ turns of anarchy, I think we are better off staying as republics
donsigw: well, we do not have our hearts set on democracy right now
donsigw: we are in what I think will be along war
Chamnix GA: democracy would definitely be bad then
donsigw: agreed for now

What do we do?
donsigw: so, there are two paths to research - the one to military tradition and the one from education
donsigw: if we take the military tradition path I fear the Galls will get there way before us - and that would be bad
Chamnix GA: i agree
Chamnix GA: here is my opinion
donsigw: but if you do the military tradition path that leaves the after education path for us
Chamnix GA: (fe3333au might yell at me for having this chat)
donsigw: yes, and greekguy at me :D
Chamnix GA: i was hoping you could do invention next
Chamnix GA: because I don't think printing press is valuable
Chamnix GA: and nothing else is available
Chamnix GA: after you complete that, then we would switch paths and MIA would do gunpowder

The problem
donsigw: we could but you must understand that if we started invention now it would take us 21 turns - and we cannot start yet!
donsigw: it may be thirty turns before we actually have invention
Chamnix GA: hmm

War News
donsigw: now, some news - the Galls have a settler over here
Chamnix GA: wow
donsigw: he is in the midst of a big stack anf they are all on a hill
donsigw: with a vet pike
donsigw: BCLG has been chatting with KISS members and they want land over here for peace
Chamnix GA: on the iron hill on your east?
donsigw: the very hill
donsigw: we have iron from another source
Chamnix GA: what are you thinking of doing?
donsigw: we just found this last turn
donsigw: we have a stack of our own near by but the odds of our immortals destroying that stack is not good
donsigw: we are debating whether the best course is to try to destroy the city or flip it
donsigw: well there is no city yet but I'm sure they will build on that hill
Chamnix GA: if the city stays, would gallics be able to reach your towns in 1 turn?
donsigw: I don't think so. We have a stack of pikes and immortals nearby - we could attack any GSs that sally forth
donsigw: but the longer this goes on the more chance they have o f landing elsewhere
Chamnix GA: tough call
donsigw: we're building a couple trebuchets next turn
donsigw: we have been saving our gold so we could rush libraries to try to flip it
donsigw: but we need more pikes to protect the cities we plan to rebuild
donsigw: and it all comes down to us having to keep research off for awhile longer
Chamnix GA: I understand
donsigw: and with the Nutters and Galls trading techs that leaves us scientific types with the prospects of being left behind!

Hmm
Chamnix GA: well, I'm not sure what we should do now
Chamnix GA: I think you are better off not researching a tech like printing press in any case
Chamnix GA: instead of trading techs we can sell you cheap techs
Chamnix GA: you can just save money while we research
Chamnix GA: we can use the money to fuel more research
Chamnix GA: and hopefully we can keep up with the KISSNuts that way
donsigw: trouble is, most of the gold we generate may go to the war effort
Chamnix GA: i know, but then you can't research anyway
donsigw: yes, but the point I'm making is that we may not even be able to afford cheap techs :-(
donsigw: let's say we can start researching again in ten turns
donsigw: if we could do that what would your team like us to work on?
Chamnix GA: i don't know
Chamnix GA: we were hoping you could do invention next, but that may be too long to wait
Chamnix GA: we'll have to talk about it

When in doubt, stall
donsigw: aren't you close to finishing education?
Chamnix GA: yes
donsigw: planning to start a new tech right away or are you willing to hold off a turn or two?
Chamnix GA: we would probably start either banking or astronony right away
Chamnix GA: but we could hold off i guess
donsigw: do you know the relative costs of invention / banking and astronomy?
Chamnix GA: invention = 44 base, banking = 52, astronony = 56
donsigw: so if invention takes us 21 turns then the others would take even longer
Chamnix GA: right
Chamnix GA: invention should take you less because I assume KISS will complete it first

Maybe soon...
donsigw: I think my team-mates would not be opposed to researching invention but we just can't start it yet
donsigw: we'll have a better idea in couple turns
Chamnix GA: ok
donsigw: maybe 3 turns when we have a silk hooked up

Trade for luxuries?
donsigw: has there been any talk on your team about selling us theology?
donsigw: we'd like to trade luxes for tech
Chamnix GA: we were hoping to trade Theology for Invention, but I'm almost positive we will accept luxes for techs in general
donsigw: invention for education or something after that
Chamnix GA: should be fine
donsigw: what luxes do you need? silks? wines?
donsigw: ivory? furs?
Chamnix GA: we have ivory, furs, incense, spices, and dyes as native luxes
donsigw: spices? nice
Chamnix GA: only 1 source unfortunately
donsigw: spices and dyes are not over here
Chamnix GA: KISS got 3
Chamnix GA: no gems or silks on our continent
donsigw: so silk and wine is the only thing left we can trade you
donsigw: we're trying to corner the silk and gem market
donsigw: the Nutters built a city and took one of our gems
donsigw: but we will have a little culture fight over that ;-)

Stop rushing libraries!!!
Chamnix GA: you can't win a culture fight
Chamnix GA: if their town is next to the gems and your town is 2 away, then it will always be theirs
donsigw: even if they have no culture in their city?
Chamnix GA: yep - the only culture war you can win is over tiles that are equidistant
Chamnix GA: if one city is closer, then that city always wins
donsigw: well we'll have build another city then someday
Chamnix GA: that would work
donsigw: we got their incense anyway
Chamnix GA: 8-)

Peace with Dnuts
donsigw: we may actually have trade deal with the Iroqi
Chamnix GA: good
donsigw: we offered them incense and they offered us wines
donsigw: we accepted because it imples peace
Chamnix GA: yep - 20 turns at least
donsigw: plus we could use the wine :-)
Chamnix GA: yep - no more luxury spending hopefully
donsigw: yeah, we're at ten percent

All done
Chamnix GA: my girlfriend needs the computer...
Chamnix GA: and I still have to play our turn tonight...
Chamnix GA: so I better sign off
donsigw: ok - please talk about selling us theology for silks
donsigw: bye
Chamnix GA: I don't think that will be a problem
Chamnix GA: we may want to wait a bit though
Chamnix GA: Theology is of no immediate use to you
Chamnix GA: and there is no need to reduce the price for our rivals
donsigw: we'll have to - it'll be about 6 or 7 turns before we have the silk
donsigw: asre you posting this chat log?
Chamnix GA: yep
Chamnix GA: fe3333au would really kill me if we talked and I didn't post
donsigw: I will to
Chamnix GA: ok
donsigw: i will post, not kill you
donsigw: bye
Chamnix GA: bye
Click to expand...
 
News about Dnuts is good - a luxury trade should guarantee no Dnut attack for at least 20 turns, and TNT could use the luxury.

News about KISS' settler is... interesting. KISS will need a lot of units to prevent a flip considering how close it is to TNT's capital and that TNT has significantly more culture than KISS right now. If KISS insists on keeping towns by TNT, then they are very vulnerable to a combined MIATNT attack on 166 or so. Maybe TNT should consider land for peace depending on how much land KISS is demanding - KISS will have a very hard time defending that land long-term, and towns there really won't help them very much anyway.

I think we probably continue with AstroBanking next as planned. We may end up having to do Invention ourselves also, but we will have to see about that, and we do have sufficient time to reach Military Tradition without TNT even if we do at least 1 of the AstroBanking techs first.
 
I encourage TNT to let KISS take land, but not yet. Drag out the war for a while. I know we want TNT to restart it's tech engine, but I think KISS should be dragged down a bit more first.

Maybe a good strategy would be to stay at war unless KISS goes into anarchy. Then take a land-for-peace deal, as long as the towns can't be attacked in 1 turn with fast units.

Dunno... just rambling.

I'm sorry I wound up unavailable last night. Errands took about three times as long as I had hoped :(
 
Glad chat happened ... thanks Chamnix you did very well.

have sent this to TNT g-mail

Title ... Apology from MIA
Sorry greekguy ... I have an infected tooth and am on anti-biotics and pain killers ... so am out of action, apart from lurking until further notice.

Chamnix and others were looking out for you ... chatted with Donsig instead ... please respond to the things discussed ... it is important for both of our teams to combine efforts.

Any correspondence should goto g-mail until further notice.

fe3333au
Click to expand...

I am in lurker mode and will update Looking Glass ... sorry for inconvenience :(

Bit out of it at the moment :crazyeye:
 
Question ... if we have to do invention ourselves ... is there an important tech (for us) that TNT could slow burn on ... even if we have to give them a couple of pre-requisite techs for silks ???

That will enable them to still concentrate on funding their war with KISS.
 
I don't think there is one.

I've been trying to make myself available until fe3333au has his tooth fixed, and Donsig caught me again:

donsigw: hello - are you there?
Chamnix GA: hi there

Looking over his shoulder
donsigw: I'm playing our turn now - want to hear what's going on?
Chamnix GA: sure
donsigw: the Galls have built a city on that iron hill
donsigw: they named it Spite
Chamnix GA: lol
Chamnix GA: can they reach your towns from there?
donsigw: no - they pillaged the roads since we have a stack in the area
donsigw: we are strong compared to Iroqi, avg. compared to Greeks and weak compared to Galls
donsigw: we now have a trade deal in place with the Iroqi
donsigw: we get wines, they get incense
Chamnix GA: cool
donsigw: so our lux rate goes to zero
Chamnix GA: :-)
donsigw: probably shgouldn't let the Iroqi know you know about the deal
Chamnix GA: ok

Research
donsigw: invention is still 21 turns away if we started now
donsigw: we'll have two more libraries in three turns though
Chamnix GA: in high income towns?

A new town settled
donsigw: We have rebuilt Unabomb
donsigw: the libraries will be on our western ore cities - but the cities are still small
Chamnix GA: where was Unabomb?
donsigw: A little SE of Grenadopolis or east and a littlel north of Dancing Banana
Chamnix GA: Ok - I can see Grenadopolis
Chamnix GA: Dancing Banana doesn't appear on our map yet

The peace offer
donsigw: the Galls apparently offered us peace if we agree not to build any cities east of our present holdings and we give them the next three techs we research
Chamnix GA: hmm
Chamnix GA: what if they have the next 3 techs you research?
donsigw: they didn't say
donsigw: and I'm not inclined to ask
donsigw: we're not considering their offer
Chamnix GA: ok
Chamnix GA: it's good that they keep offering, even if the offers are ridiculous
Chamnix GA: it means they're not that confident
Chamnix GA: they would rather not fight if you let them out
donsigw: they will have to fight since they built a city over here
Chamnix GA: until it's yours...

How MIA can help
donsigw: are you guys sending any ships over here?
donsigw: we could sure use some eyes - we don't know where those dark green galleys are
Chamnix GA: we have 1 on the west coast of your continent heading north, but it will be a while before it gets to the KISS crossing point
Chamnix GA: We also have a knight near Mezzonotte Keep now
Chamnix GA: is there a road he can use to get to the combat zone as a spy?
donsigw: yeah there's a road - but don't we need an rop?
donsigw: is the knight north of the Keep?
Chamnix GA: he is west of the western mountain right now
donsigw: the mountain one tile from the west coast?
Chamnix GA: yes - he just got off a boat last turn
donsigw: he's got a few jugle tiles to traverse but there is a road north of the keep - it starts on the banana tile NE of the Keep
Chamnix GA: do you think it would be faster to take the road or get back on the boat and unload north of the jungle?
donsigw: where did he land? W, NW or N of the mountain?
Chamnix GA: W
Chamnix GA: there is a barb camp to the NW that he will clear
donsigw: he could be on the road in 4 turns
donsigw: then a turn after that could be next to vraunopolis
donsigw: next turn would have to go around that city and get back on road (1 turn)
Chamnix GA: would he block any of your units if he takes the road?
donsigw: from there it is two turns by road to the action
donsigw: no - we're roading the silks and our military is in the east
donsigw: wouldn't be a problem at all

Embassy?
donsigw: can you guys afford to build an embassy here so we can make an rop?
Chamnix GA: before 4 turns so the knight reaches the road - definitely
Chamnix GA: we'll have to check with our teams to make sure everyone is OK with an RoP.
donsigw: taking th eroad would be faster than re-embarking
donsigw: in eight turns on the boat you'd just be up north somewhere
Chamnix GA: is your capital growing or will you be producing a worker or settler soon?
donsigw: capital is growing
donsigw: we have only two barracks (in capital and Dynopolis) so we want to build military there
Chamnix GA: makes sense
donsigw: capital can grow to size 12 now
Chamnix GA: I only ask because I think embassy costs are tied to population, so we want to time it when it's cheapest if possible
Chamnix GA: we should do it ASAP if you are growing

Miscellaneous
donsigw: Started a settler in Grenadopolis - since it's at size 6 w/o fresh water
donsigw: if it's tied to size of capital, our sill go from 10 to 11 in three turns
donsigw: oops - I mean from 8 to 9
Chamnix GA: will it still be happy at size 9?
donsigw: It's Semtex that can go to size 12
donsigw: yes, will be happy at nine - but that's the max at 0% lux
donsigw: well, I'm done. Anything quesitons before I close out the save?
Chamnix GA: can't think of anything - I guess all KISS units are in there town now?
donsigw: I assume so. We can't see behind it. It woud be really nice if you guys had a ship on our east coast. (hint)
Chamnix GA: lol
Chamnix GA: we probably will, but it is only near M Keep now
donsigw: did you guys decide your next research target yet?
Chamnix GA: no
donsigw: We're going to try to start researching again in 10 turns
donsigw: we can relax a bit since the Iroqi made that deal - we assume we now have 20 turns of peace with them
Chamnix GA: you should
Chamnix GA: if they attack you, then we might go after them
donsigw: that's goo d to know
donsigw: I doubt they will attack since they just made that deal
Chamnix GA: me too
Chamnix GA: and they are still weak to you
donsigw: ok, the save is all yours
Chamnix GA: got it
donsigw: have fun - and don't forget we want to buy theology cheap :-)
Chamnix GA: I can't actually play now because my teammates have to give me their orders, but I'll take a look
donsigw: see ya!
donsigw: oh, feel free to post this if you want - just don't leak anything to the enemy
Chamnix GA: no problem
Chamnix GA: your enemy is our enemy
donsigw signed off at 9:43:56 PM.
Click to expand...

So how do people feel about an RoP with TNT?

Also - we are weak to KISS now, and we should probably tell TNT next chance we get.
 
Hmm - I'm cool with a RoP - it tips our hand a bit... in terms of how close we are to TNT.

But (between the Nuts' silence and our inaction) I'm losing hope that we'll ever get much going with Dnuts anyway.

So, I don't get a vote - but I'd sign a RoP and strongly encourage TNT to keep fighting KISS.
 
I didn't think about tipping our hand. I guess we could try to sell it to Dnuts the same way we sell everything else about TNT - we hate KISS and are using the RoP to help TNT only because they are fighting KISS. In any case, I wouldn't be in any hurry to mention it to Dnuts.

I was thinking more in terms of the danger of an RoP against a human, but TNT is really no short-term threat to us, and we can always cancel it after 20 turns if it becomes uncomfortable later.
 
Is it in our best interest to have an official ROP ... KISS will see it since they have embassies already established?

At the moment, our relationship with TNT is only assumed.

However I see the benefits of fast scouting ability ... but I have a fear that it would bond Nuts closer to KISS with regards to see us as enemy instead of neutral.

This concerns the Foreign Office in that it may effect the lovely Wines we are getting ;)


Oh and thanks Chamnix for taking the chat role, I'm healing slowly ... lost some time being hypnotised as I watched workers toiling :lol: ... Codine is niiiice :crazyeye:
 
Thinking a bit more and chatting to Classical hero ... I really think that an official ROP with TNT is a bad idea. So I try to order thoughts :blush:

Reasons

KISS will know the very next turn ... they analyse as much as we do :yup:
> This may effect their strategy concerning the TNT war.
> ATM, KISS think TNT an easy target and easily extorted into peace
> they don't know that we have and are willing to further support TNT against KISS.

TNT will eventually be told by KISS ... or they will see themselves, however I doubt they analyse as we do :smug:
> This in turn may effect the Wine trade and possibly other things
> ATM they seem to be reluctant to send us a peace proposal (which they brought up initially)
> Strangely the trade deal with TNT indicate an unwillingness to enter the war. :hmm:

Yes ROP will speed up our movement for the knight, but is it worth it ???!!

If their cities are not closely linked, we can still gain movement benefits from the connecting roads.
Let KISS bluster and threaten TNT as much as they want
... I'd like for KISS to have to change to Monarchy or Feudalism at this stage :mischief:


So next step is to work out a proposal for TNT.

I's like for us to talk about the following points ... blimey this will be edited and re-edited :p

Outcome regarding TNT
... have TNT as our war dog, that we unchain and sic at KISS and possibly Nuts.
... They will be well rewarded with the odd tummy rub and techie treat.

Basically, I think I have this right, we want TNT to engage and distract KISS for as long as it takes, KISS will throw unit after unit against TNT and because of our 'secret' support, the wall will not fall ... while we will be largely ignored until close to the end of our peace.

We offer TNT

1. Peace until we both enter the next age and swap free techs (if different)

2. We give all techs freely that are required for the Era jump ... these techs are to be dished out to imply TNT are researching themselves.

2a. Any other technologies NOT required for era jumping can be purchased from us.

2b. Every technology that TNT research for us ... will be given to us freely on our request.

3. We will research at a moderate level, with occasional periods of flatout and switching off to attend to the coffers.

4. We are both to exchange automatically any spare Luxury and Strategic Resource between us.

5. TNT will slow burn on the odd tech to fill in gaps, while we direct the best course of action for both.
... This will in the long run speed up our era jump and allow TNT to fund their expansion and war.

Big Question ... what technology exactly will we get them to research ???
... keep in mind they are virtually a useless science partner atm

6. TNT will concentrate on generating cash to rush units and infrastructure.
... This way they will have time to get established and then be able to assist in a real sense our mutual research. ATM they are useless science partners. :(

7. We will both fast burn research at the end of tech tree, which will speed us both into next age.

8. TNT must war with KISS for as long as possible, give no quarter and even attack them on home soil if necessary.
... this will distract KISS, who are totally focuses on War, War and nothing but War, neglecting us.

9. Open communication, TNT must inform us of every foreign contact. We must know about Every move they make, every breath they take.

10. Secrecy ... TNT must keep our relationship secret !!!

11. MIA will build Military units to keep up with KISS in Strength.
... This will mean training Knights and possibly disbanding Maces (for upkeep reasons)

12. MIA will assist TNT by placing units on TNT soil and waters to act as spotters for incoming KISS reinforcements.

13. If necessary, TNT will distract Nuts, so that we can attack them by surprise if this is our whim.

14. fantasy ... I can't wait for both TNT and MIA to have the technology to build pirates :evil:
... TNT will be blamed every time :lol:
... and you don't report on pirate activity in the logs because of hidden nationality ... the ships just go missing at sea :mischief:

What do you all think ... I personally feel the German coming out in me :evil: ... or is it the drugs :lol:

TNT are in our debt, they would have been in a very bad position if not for us.
TNT can never survive as well as they are now without our aid.
With this plan, we will give them power over our mutual rivals.
While we will have the benefit of a virtually unblacked map, ALL the others are left in the dark.

So again what do yous think and what can we get them to research considering we can supa out research them until they get their infrastructure up.
 
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