TNT Files Term 7 - 9

I think TNT is in much deeper trouble than people realize. KISS has 3 times the towns of TNT, several of TNT's towns are corrupt and distant so as to be practically useless, TNT didn't build enough workers so even their core towns may not be as productive as they could be, and KISS is in their Golden Age for another 14 turns.

KISS will produce many many MANY more units than TNT. To even hold their own, TNT must have an outstanding kill ratio. Since they have the home island advantage, they should get a decent kill ratio, but unfortunately, we are talking about TNT here - you know... the team that is still talking enthusiastically about a couple more libraries being completed soon?

I really think they should seriously consider any reasonable peace offer - and yes, a promise not to settle any more eastern towns would qualify as reasonable. TNT should consider letting KISS operate as TNT's settler factory. KISS will have a very hard time defending those towns come turn 166.
 
Cham makes a good case... but if TNT allows KISS to build a few cities and move the bulk of their army over... even with Cavalry, TNT could have a tough time reclaiming their land.

Unless we simultaneously attack KISS on our land? :evil:

That’s a little sooner than I was hoping for war to break out… but I suppose it may be a good time. Especially if we can get the Dnuts to sit it out.

Is this what you’re advocating Chamnix?
Or do you think TNT will be able to do better against KISS with Cavalry than they can right now? (without a second front by us)
 
I think TNT will have a much easier time against KISS after our peace deal expires, whether or not we actually attack KISS. As long as KISS has to worry about MIA attacking, they will be fighting TNT with one arm tied behind their back.
 
Do we want TNT to allow peace with KISS?

We could add a clause in proposed treaty about TNT must, with vigor attack, attack and again attack KISS.

and to build up a navy as well !!!
 
I wouldn't even try to get that in there - if TNT needs peace, then they should take it.

I don't know if we need any kind of long-term deal with TNT right now (they may not even be around for the long term). We can certainly provide them with a tech for silks although I would prefer to wait until both Dnuts and KISS have the tech we are providing so we are not lowering the price for them.

The only deal we can really look at right now is an RoP. I can definitely see both sides. We have a few turns to think about it since Bellerophon can't get to their road that quickly anyway. I really wish we would get at least a "we're working on it" from Dnuts, but I don't see any advantage in us sending them anything else until they respond - we've already sent a couple reminders.

Basically, we will continue to provide TNT with techs for luxuries and/or gold. I really can't think of anything that would be at all useful for them to research right now. Maybe when we get to the Industrial Age, they can do Nationalism or Sanitation or Espionage depending on our free techs, but for now I think they should let us handle the science - if they can afford not to build military, then they should put up more marketplaces.
 
I'm pro RoP. KISS will wonder why, but so what? DNUTs will make assumptions, which might be correct. I don't see how this hurts our chances of driving a wedge between KISS and DNUTs.

If we need to answer uncofortable questions, we can say that the RoP was our price for a garauntee not to attack with our spotters. TNT is not in any position to say no to a deal like that, so I think it's a plausible explanation.

As for TNT and the Era Jump.... well,.. that's a very long way off. Let's not speculate on things until we see just how much of TNT is left at that point. KISS have built up a pretty respectable force, seeing as how they are STRONG to us. If KISS manage 2 more waves of invaders, TNT is going to be hacked to pieces while re-shelving books!
 
I have a feeling that TNT are uncomfortable with the lack of substance they have at the moment with us, and want concrete terms so they know where exactly they stand ... and fair enough too !!

So with regards to the points for the TNT proposal ... what points exactly are we pro, con or unsure about?

I'm still con about ROP ... I feel we have more to gain in deception and surprise.

I am also uneasy what exactly TNT will have to offer KISS for Peace ... if we decide that peace with KISS is acceptible we should have input on exactly what we are comfortable with ... land and tech and an extended peace in order to fully utilize their agricultian trait is like letting locusts loose in the crop lands.

I agree that for the proposal to work, TNT must get their heads out of thier ... ummm ... books and fully concentrate on military and naval units ... 3 or 4 galleys could very well block the damned crossing point and put havock to KISS' invasion plan.

... and of course these points will be made crystal and require TNT to agree to for them to get the benefits listed in the proposal.
 
It would be very bad for MIA if TNT signed a peace with KISS before the end of KISS's Golden Age. If KISS builds infrastructure while in their Golden Age, our lead will diminish quickly.

We must try and keep them at war for another 10 turns or so. Another drawback to taking this peace deal is that TNT will still be ripe for attack. I think it would be best for KISS to get a couple more towns over there before TNT accepts a peace.
 
Your wish has been granted ...

Peter's wish granted
donsigw: hey there
fe3333au: hi
donsigw: just played our turn - thought I'd let you know the Galls built ANOTHER city over here ... on the coast
fe3333au: farout
donsigw: they called it Malice

What Now?
fe3333au: what you guys going to do?
donsigw: well, we're building up to try to get rid of those cities ... not sure exactly how we'll do it
fe3333au: maybe build some navy to plug their passage?
donsigw: we don't have that kind of production capability ... can't do both an army and a navy

Concerns about Army probability
donsigw: have to be careful becasue they hace at least three elite swords ... don't want them getting a leader and an army

And
donsigw: also have to cover our coasts in case they land somewhere else
fe3333au: 3 ships should be a good ... rush them?
donsigw: we've gotta rush trebuchets - that one city is on a hill and if they ruch walls...

Tech concerns
donsigw: plus we are falling behind in tech and we're not sure if we should be spending all our gold on militarty ... got our silks hooled up and another library but still could only research invention in 20 turns
fe3333au: don't worry about tech at the moment
donsigw: I worry about those tings :)

Librarys :rolleyes: ... how many books do you guys want ?!!
fe3333au: Should stop with the libraries ... concentrate on units and navy
donsigw: what's the point of driving off the galls if we end up so far behind someone else comes in next with cavalry?
donsigw: we need libraries to expand the borders of our cities since we don't know where the galls we come from next

Knights
fe3333au: problem is survival atm ... and we can help with military tech
donsigw: do the galls have chivalry?
fe3333au: no ... so build a **** load of knights ... only you and us have chivalry
donsigw: we think we can get by with immortals and trebuchets
donsigw: we - don't have chivalry - only you have it - unless the nutters have it
fe3333au: OK .. I remember now ... you didn't want Chiv ... but if you build cheap horses ... then upgrade when we give Chiv

fe3333au: what is attack strength of immortal?
donsigw: four


donsigw: just keep an eye on the galls techs - if they get chivalry then please let us know - we may need to buy it from you if they get it

donsigw: yes, we'll go that route if the Galls get chevalry - otherwise we'll try taking out those cities without knights

Bye
donsigw: well, I've gotta leave my computer now
fe3333au: cya
donsigw: just wanted to give you a quick heads up on the second city
donsigw: bye
Click to expand...

Therefore Team ... can I please have discussion on the proposal !!

Like it?
Change it?
Scrap it entirely?
 
Is this the proposal you are talking about?

We offer TNT

1. Peace until we both enter the next age and swap free techs (if different)

2. We give all techs freely that are required for the Era jump ... these techs are to be dished out to imply TNT are researching themselves.

2a. Any other technologies NOT required for era jumping can be purchased from us.

2b. Every technology that TNT research for us ... will be given to us freely on our request.

3. We will research at a moderate level, with occasional periods of flatout and switching off to attend to the coffers.

4. We are both to exchange automatically any spare Luxury and Strategic Resource between us.

5. TNT will slow burn on the odd tech to fill in gaps, while we direct the best course of action for both.
... This will in the long run speed up our era jump and allow TNT to fund their expansion and war.

Big Question ... what technology exactly will we get them to research ???
... keep in mind they are virtually a useless science partner atm

6. TNT will concentrate on generating cash to rush units and infrastructure.
... This way they will have time to get established and then be able to assist in a real sense our mutual research. ATM they are useless science partners.

7. We will both fast burn research at the end of tech tree, which will speed us both into next age.

8. TNT must war with KISS for as long as possible, give no quarter and even attack them on home soil if necessary.
... this will distract KISS, who are totally focuses on War, War and nothing but War, neglecting us.

9. Open communication, TNT must inform us of every foreign contact. We must know about Every move they make, every breath they take.

10. Secrecy ... TNT must keep our relationship secret !!!

11. MIA will build Military units to keep up with KISS in Strength.
... This will mean training Knights and possibly disbanding Maces (for upkeep reasons)

12. MIA will assist TNT by placing units on TNT soil and waters to act as spotters for incoming KISS reinforcements.

13. If necessary, TNT will distract Nuts, so that we can attack them by surprise if this is our whim.

14. fantasy ... I can't wait for both TNT and MIA to have the technology to build pirates
... TNT will be blamed every time
... and you don't report on pirate activity in the logs because of hidden nationality ... the ships just go missing at sea
Click to expand...

1. Fine.

2. No - we want TNT to pay when they can. Things are only free if we decide TNT is better not paying. Also, I don't want to gift TNT to the next age until everyone has Education or the Great Library has been built.

2a. We won't have any except Military Tradition.

2b. They won't have any we want.

3. TBD as we go - that doesn't belong in any proposal.

4. OK - that's one-sided in our favor in all likelihood since they have the extra luxuries.

5. There is no point in TNT researching at all.

6. OK.

7. TNT will never be able to fast burn research.

8. I really think TNT is better off getting a fast peace, but they won't agree to that. KISS can't have much infrastructure left to build anymore.

9. OK.

10. OK.

11. We are behind and will not catch up, but we should be building some.

12. OK.

13. I don't see TNT being able to do that.

14. The problem with privateers is that they tend to die easily and not be worth the cost.

Really, I'm not sure what we're getting at here.
 
I haven't heard TNT asking for a more detailed peace... unless I've missed something in the chat logs or emails.

We do need to tell them, in a way they will agree with, that they should stop building infrastructure (other than barracks), and build Immortals, Trebuchets, and Horsemen.

TNT is, as we have all mentioned at one time or another, completely uselss to us as a tech partner. It's tought for me to see a situation where TNT makes up all the ground they've lost to fulfill even half of our research needs. Any proposal that discusses technology should make it clear that MIA is not interested in TNT researching. Yes, this hamstrings TNT by denying them the use of one of their traits, but they themselves plotted this path with that stupid war against the DNUTs.

In other words, I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of TNT. We should not promise to gift them into the next age. Let's wait and see if they even survive in any strength to that point!

If I were writing the proposal it would look something like this:

1. Peace until we both enter the next age and swap free techs (if different)

4. We are both to exchange automatically any spare Luxury and Strategic Resource between us.

6. TNT will concentrate on generating cash to rush units and infrastructure.

9. Open communication, TNT must inform us of every foreign contact. We must know about Every move they make, every breath they take.

10. Secrecy ... TNT must keep our relationship secret !!!

12. MIA will assist TNT by placing units on TNT soil and waters to act as spotters for incoming KISS reinforcements.
Click to expand...

I would strengthen Point 9. I think that TNT should actually send us transcripts of all communication received and sent. This way we can keep abreast of what KISS and DNUTs are planning, to some extent. The tough part is Accountability. How can we ensure that the things they forward to us are not editted?

Let's not forget: TNT needs us so much more badly than we need them. We only need them to act as drag on KISS' economy, and to survive for a bit - at least until KISS is out of their Golden Age.
 
@Peter, greekguy has been mumbling about sending us an extended peace proposal for some time now.

Thanks for feedback ... keep it coming.

As to point 4, perhaps drop that altogether since it is one sided ... and it gives them freedom to buy techs from us.

Regarding thier request for Theology, I'd actually wait until the others get it as it will cost them more time to research.


:old: and now we come to a favourite subject of mine :rolleyes:

For us to get a ROP, an ... ta ta ta ta da ... Embassy has to be built :p

Hmmmm ... are we willing to spend the necessary 44 gold? :lol:
 
Ok – I'm coming to this discussion a little late, but here's my take.

We need TNT to suck up KISS's military units and keep KISS at least partly on a war footing to prevent them from taking full long-term domestic advantage out of their Golden age.
This really all TNT is good for anymore. (Maybe they'll be useful for more in the future… but that's seeming grim)

So the question becomes – how do we get TNT to act as a KISS Sword Sponge for as long as possible?

Personally, I'd promise them just about anything as long as they agree to the following:
1) They focus on Military, and keep fighting KISS.
2) No peace deal with KISS, unless it's approved by us.
3) We get free Luxuries for as long as they can hold them

In exchange, we can give them any and all techs that they need. (on demand if KISS or Nuts have it – we may delay transfer of a tech if only MIA has it… unless TNT has a military need for it)
We also will provide military unit spotters and will apply diplomatic pressure to the Dnuts to try to keep them out of a war against TNT.


Anyway – I think that's pretty generous to TNT… free tech – all they need to do is try to fight a respectable war against KISS! (And we need to really beg them to forget about the libraries until they control their own continent… for crying out loud!!)

But that's just my opinion.
 
Sent to TNT g-mail
Title ... Our Unit
Our Knight is clearing the Barbs for you.
Question ... how many workers have you lost to KISS?
Click to expand...


OK ... in KISS files I have extrapolated potential settler production.

Turn 128 ... shows KISS have a maximum 3, but more like 2 spare settlers.
... I want to send this info to TNT as an incentive to concentrate on Military.



I am eager to get something official sent to TNT ... the team seem divided as to exactly what our support to TNT should be.

Currently TNT are 20% researching and still building their Libraries ... they have no strong (official) directions from us ... we express our frustrations here but nothing is sent.

I feel that we are in a strong position to really focus their efforts, they must be forced to understand that they face extinction unless they lay OUR game.

What we e in turn will lose a tech partner, even if it is

Summing Up Team ... and please correct me if I am wrong.

Gen_W and myself favour the proposal as is ... but with a strong understanding that TNT must concentrate fully on military and naval production ... else NO deal, and our support will be limited to spotting and intel.

Chamnix is of the opinion that TNT should sue for peace and that our support be limited to selling tech and leave them to play their own unique and frustrating game.

Peter while not advocating that TNT should be allowed to sue for peace seems to want to drop any tech support on our part.

Classical Hero expressed our universal frustration in their game play.

The ROP invitation is supported by Peter only as Chmnix refuses to establish an Embassy ;)

I understand the risk of entering into an agreement with TNT ... there is a real possibility that we will be wasting our techs on them, but we lose a potential war partner if we do nothing ... and the tech support becomes mute.
 
fe3333au said:
Currently TNT are 20% researching
Click to expand...

I thought they were not researching yet :confused:

fe3333au said:
The ROP invitation is supported by Peter only as Chmnix refuses to establish an Embassy
Click to expand...

I don’t want to build an embassy just for the sake of getting a screenshot of their capital, but if we feel an RoP is in our best interest because we can improve TNT’s chances of damaging KISS, then that qualifies as a good reason to build an embassy. Personally, I’m still undecided on whether or not we really want an RoP.

I don’t think we want a long-term deal with TNT. We may want to go elsewhere for tech trades (Dnuts finally?), but TNT has nowhere else to go, so a long-term deal ties our hands without providing any benefit to us. The only possible reason to sign a long-term deal is so TNT may feel secure enough to build military and know they will not fall behind in tech, but frankly, I am very skeptical that would work – if TNT can’t realize the danger they are in now, then there is no reason to think they will change their approach.

So let’s look at short-term deals. RoP? Maybe – I’m not convinced either way. Silks for Theology? OK, but only after the KISSNuts have Theology. Unless TNT is planning to build the Sistine Chapel or research Printing Press :rolleyes:, there is no reason they need Theology sooner than that. What should they research? Don’t bother. I wouldn’t tell them this, but we can finish Banking, Astronomy, Invention, and Gunpowder in the time it will take them to do Invention – we are not going to turn off research to wait for them.
 
Oops I read 20 turns as completion date for TNT research ... sorry :blush:

I guess what I'm trying to do is offer a deal to our support only if they concentrate on fending off KISS, which will therefore benfit us by distracting KISS and forcing them to throw more resources at TNT.
 
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