To all the Christian evolutionists/Old Earth Creationists

[Perfection]

Nice point. If the world is perfect for the christian god's purposes, who are we to change it?

But then who are we to say that we can't change it? The change from changing to not changing itself is a change!

 

[bhsup]

Nice point. If the world is perfect for the christian god's purposes, who are we to change it?

We are man, whom God gave dominion over this world. Check Genesis.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, I agree that the world is ours to be stewards of: I researched the ecological consequences of my lifestyle, and modified my behaviour willingly. No meat. Take the bus. Cold house. etc.

I'm wondering what gives Christians the right to stop non-Christians from commiting sinful acts? If you're only reading this post, you should read the last page, because I said it better then.

 

[MobBoss]

Sigh. Who tricked the Devil, then? No one, purportedly. And his freedom of choice did not require the suffering of innocents. Rebelling against God cannot be a function of intelligence, therefore, there must be some other reason why humans require temptation to become evil, and he did not.

You make the mistake of thinking the Devil is human. He is not.

As well, if stopping a bomber is removing freedom of choice, and God is apparently all about freedom of choice, why do you feel beholden to stop the bomber?

That would be my choice now wouldnt it?

Why do you feel beholden to stop a person committing suicide? In fact, what's your motivation for exerting any effort to stop a sin (or the suffering of innocents), since stopping the sin clearly removes freedom of choice. Why are you willing to perfom actions that God is not willing to perform?

My action on my choice has nothing to do with the choices of others, nor does it restrict the choices they themselves make. What makes you think god does not act on your behalf if you ask him too? I have had some pretty amazing things happen in my life that I attribute to god answering my prayer. Are all my prayers answered? No. Reason? Not all my prayers are really valid and for my own good....who knows better for me...me, limited by my earthly intelligence or god who is all-knowing?

Finally, the mother undergoes self-inflicted suffering because she believes it's for the best. Is causing suffering, when there was no reason, evil?

If your mother undergoes it or allows it because she thinks its best, how is god any different if he thinks it for the best? Is your mother evil? By your definition quite possibly. I dont think you are capable of identifying all the reasons suffering may occur for....you just dont know everything....therefore your question is ultimately invalid.

I'm wondering what gives Christians the right to stop non-Christians from commiting sinful acts? If you're only reading this post, you should read the last page, because I said it better then.

For the most part I dont have a right to stop you...unless the sinful act to which you are referring is something directly against the law or harmful to me in particular. But I do have a right to disagree with what you are doing or point it out as sinful.

 

[El_Machinae]

What makes you think god does not act on your behalf if you ask him too?

The Bible, Christians, and scientists all claimed that leprosy could be cured. I think I'll side with the group that actually cured leprosy, thank you.

If your mother undergoes it or allows it because she thinks its best, how is god any different if he thinks it for the best?

That's my point: if God cannot do what he wants to do without causing suffering, then he's not Omnipotent. If God COULD do what he wanted to do without causing suffering, but doesn't, then He's not all good.

For the most part I dont have a right to stop you...unless the sinful act to which you are referring is something directly against the law or harmful to me in particular.

I agree that this seems to be the logical conclusion of your faith. And I agree that you have the right to prevent a crime and to protect yourself. Do you have the right to advocate making a sin into a crime? It seems not, since that would be taking direct steps to remove freedom of choice from a sinner (ie, giving yourself legal permission to act when you didn't before).

 

[MobBoss]

The Bible, Christians, and scientists all claimed that leprosy could be cured. I think I'll side with the group that actually cured leprosy, thank you.

What makes you think that the people who developed the anti-biotics for the treatment of leprosy were not christians?

That's my point: if God cannot do what he wants to do without causing suffering, then he's not Omnipotent.

I am sure he could do it and remove suffering......a being that can create heaven and earth could do that. He chooses not to for reasons of his own. Are you smart enough fully comprehend those reasons? No.

If God COULD do what he wanted to do without causing suffering, but doesn't, then He's not all good.

Total assumption on your part based upon your extremely limited knowledge.

Do you have the right to advocate making a sin into a crime? It seems not, since that would be taking direct steps to remove freedom of choice from a sinner (ie, giving yourself legal permission to act when you didn't before).

A lot of sins are already crimes. Do you think I have the right to declare murder a crime? I would think so. You seem to get fixated on this "direct steps to remove freedome of choice" thing and you are starting to sound like you are rambling. Quite simply, people will generally do whatever they want regardless...if no one didnt break laws we wouldnt need laws very well now would we?

 

[Sophie 378]

Total assumption on your part based upon your extremely limited knowledge.

May I also venture the opinion that anything YOU assume about God can also be wrong, for the same reasons you've been telling us?

 

[MobBoss]

May I also venture the opinion that anything YOU assume about God can also be wrong, for the same reasons you've been telling us?

No...I humbly admit that I dont know all the reasons why God does the things he does. But I DO know that he loves me, just like a father loves a child. There are some basic tenets that are simple enough even for someone like me to understand. But the questions why and how are usually above our ability to comprehend.

 

[Perfection]

No...I humbly admit that I dont know all the reasons why God does the things he does. But I DO know that he loves me, just like a father loves a child. There are some basic tenets that are simple enough even for someone like me to understand. But the questions why and how are usually above our ability to comprehend.

How do you know god loves you?

Maybe were all shameful offspring from that time that god got really plastered.

EDIT: 19,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[El_Machinae]

Total assumption on your part based upon your extremely limited knowledge.

Ah, my lack of knowledge (regarding the ability to define good and evil) ... you wish to change tactics! Fine.

Premise: Knowledge of Good and Evil (big G and big E) cannot be a product of intelligence, because that's either not fair to the dumb, or to the smart, correct? Intelligence can recognize evil, for sure, but cannot define it.

And doesn't your Bible say, in Genesis, that humanity has knowledge of good and evil? I believe it does.

Ergo. If I DON'T have knowledge of Good and Evil (I cannot define Evil), then the Bible is wrong.
Or. If I DO have knowledge of Good and Evil (I can with confidence say "causing suffering for no reason is evil"), then God is not all Good.
- please note that we're arguing whether I have the ability to DEFINE evil.

 

[MobBoss]

How do you know god loves you?

Oh, for a variety of reasons that you would just explain off as religious mumbo-jumbo. It does say so in the bible, but I have experience things in my life that lead me personally to believe it as well.

Maybe were all shameful offspring from that time that god got really plastered.

Shrug. Nothing I have ever read or experienced would lead me to believe that, but people can guess at anything.

 

[Perfection]

Oh, for a variety of reasons that you would just explain off as religious mumbo-jumbo. It does say so in the bible, but I have experience things in my life that lead me personally to believe it as well.

Yeah, but I like hearing things before dismissing them as mumbo-jumbo.

Shrug. Nothing I have ever read or experienced would lead me to believe that, but people can guess at anything.

About as much as you can guess that god loves you...

 

[trada]

About as much as you can guess that god loves you...

He isn't guessing. I think he made that quite clear here:

Oh, for a variety of reasons that you would just explain off as religious mumbo-jumbo. It does say so in the bible, but I have experience things in my life that lead me personally to believe it as well.

 

[MobBoss]

Yeah, but I like hearing things before dismissing them as mumbo-jumbo.

Then let me phrase it this way. I can offer you nothing that will convince you otherwise in your opinion as I believe your mind is made up. Honestly, it will probably take something on the order of a life/death experience to change your opinion on it if at all.

But I do appreciate the fact that you did say earlier in the thread that the possibility of God existing is still possible, although not probable in your book. Might be hope for you yet!

 

[Birdjaguar]

But I do appreciate the fact that you did say earlier in the thread that the possibility of God existing is still possible, although not probable in your book. Might be hope for you yet!

But Perf was wrong in this. What he meant to say was "There is still the possibility that I will come to believe that god does exist." God's existence (or non existence) is already determined. The "probabilities" only reside in whether or not someone will believe.

 

[Perfection]

He isn't guessing. I think he made that quite clear here:

Well, he already knows that his methodology won't fly with me, so I'm saying that that's probobly because it's equivalent to guessing.

@Birdjaguar, to further clarify my viewpoint. I view that entities commonly regarded as "god" are so poorly evidenced that the likelyhood of it being correct is vanishingly small.

 

[MobBoss]

Well, he already knows that his methodology won't fly with me, so I'm saying that that's probobly because it's equivalent to guessing.

Well perfection you are entitled to your opinion, but I assure you, I have not just gone through life "guessing" about things. For my methodology to really "work" on you, you would have to personally know me and see the evidence for yourself as opposed to any words I can type on this forum.

 

[Perfection]

Well perfection you are entitled to your opinion, but I assure you, I have not just gone through life "guessing" about things. For my methodology to really "work" on you, you would have to personally know me and see the evidence for yourself as opposed to any words I can type on this forum.

Is it emotion based?

 

[MobBoss]

Is it emotion based?

Not totally, but there have been emotional moments in my life, sure.

Edit Example: When my wife and I were contemplating buying our first home together, we added up our funds and found we were short. We never talked to anyone about it at all, but we did pray together about it. You may not believe it, but a few days after we had been praying about it someone put an unmarked envelope full of cash into our mailbox so we would be able to make the down payment on our first home. Neither my wife and I ever said anything to anyone regarding our need, and yet this wad of cash appeared just when we needed it. We never found out who put the cash in our mailbox.

When weird, almost random acts like this happen to you over the course of your lifetime, it tends to alter your view on things. I know it has for me.

 

[Perfection]

It seems more likely to me that your wife spilled the beans to someone than god intevened.