Moderator Action: Because you don't have the maturity to discuss this issue, you will take a 3 day vacation and this thread will be closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
To most white Southerners: Justify using the Confederate flag!
- Thread starter Sims2789
- Start date
Moderator Action: Because you don't have the maturity to discuss this issue, you will take a 3 day vacation and this thread will be closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Moderator Action: Actually, I'll leave it open provided people actually try to hold a dialogue rather than a flamefest.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
i dont find it too offensive, i live in texas, and yes, i see them all the time, in trucks and stuff, they do represent recism as some bad bad organizations such as neo-nazis and KKK use them.
but really, the flag was not about racism, it was the flag for the south in the civil war, if i ask you "what was the civil war all about?" most likely you will say "to free the slaves", but it wasnt, it was about much much more, states rights, and perhaps economic survival, the people below the mason-dixon line went to war not because they simply wanted the slaves, they did to protect what in the time was believed their rights as states, and perhaps their way of life, they might not been richgt about slavery, but that was just a small thing over it.
and one more thing, the confederate flag was never meant as a racist simbol during the war, it became such when the founders of the KKK, veterans of the civil war, would use them when they did their horrendus things.
if you want the govt to force people not to fly the confederate flag, then also stop people from burning the american flag in the US, which is ofcourse uncostitutional, found in the courtcase :
texas vs gregory lee johnson.
because soing so would be infrigment on free speech.
but really, the flag was not about racism, it was the flag for the south in the civil war, if i ask you "what was the civil war all about?" most likely you will say "to free the slaves", but it wasnt, it was about much much more, states rights, and perhaps economic survival, the people below the mason-dixon line went to war not because they simply wanted the slaves, they did to protect what in the time was believed their rights as states, and perhaps their way of life, they might not been richgt about slavery, but that was just a small thing over it.
and one more thing, the confederate flag was never meant as a racist simbol during the war, it became such when the founders of the KKK, veterans of the civil war, would use them when they did their horrendus things.
if you want the govt to force people not to fly the confederate flag, then also stop people from burning the american flag in the US, which is ofcourse uncostitutional, found in the courtcase :
texas vs gregory lee johnson.
because soing so would be infrigment on free speech.
aaminion00
Stoned
Once again you show your ignorance of history and reason. Only an idiot would say that the South seceeded simply because it wanted to keep it's slaves. Economic and cultural reasons played just as big of a part as slavery did. Even at it's pre-war height, the abolitionist movement probably wouldn't have succeeded in abolishing slavery. The goverment wouldn't have allowed it. The only reason Lincoln took up that banner was to give the war a moral justification at a time where American casualties were reaching unprecedented heights and many wanted peace.
Your statement that state-rights and slavery were intervined in the Confederate States of America just show even more you have no idea what you're talking about. Go read a few history books.
And another thing. If the whole point of the CSA was to keep it's slaves, why the hell did so much of it's army come from poor Southerners who would never have been able to afford one themselves?!?
Why? If they hadn't, there might still have been slaves now.
I'll agree in saying that there are probably people who fly them without the thought of racism or hatred of the USA in mind...but, that is what the flag has come to symbolize...especially for many people in the North.
I will compare it to the Swastika not in what the people behind the symbols did, but just in the change of the symbols' meanings. The swastika used to be a very good thing. Now, it is forever hated because of what people used it for and what the people did while flying the symbol. I'm sure there are some people who feel the same way about the Christian cross, that it is very bad because of what some Christians did while wearing it around their necks.
That's just the way things work sometimes....
I will compare it to the Swastika not in what the people behind the symbols did, but just in the change of the symbols' meanings. The swastika used to be a very good thing. Now, it is forever hated because of what people used it for and what the people did while flying the symbol. I'm sure there are some people who feel the same way about the Christian cross, that it is very bad because of what some Christians did while wearing it around their necks.
That's just the way things work sometimes....
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Nobody ever accused them of being geniuses. The plantation owners convinced the rest of the south that their states rights were in jeopardy because the Union was trying to tell them what to do. About what? SLAVERY
Exactly.
Isn't flaming such as this drivel disallowed in here?
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
You don't think going to war against the US to keep your slaves isn't racist? You don't think not allowing blacks to sit in the front of the bus isn't racist? You don't think having separate drinking fountains and public schools isn't racist?
Originally posted by stalin006
......the point is if the flag was meant to be racist, it wasnt in the civil war, it represented something else, it became racist when the KKK started using it........
Basically my point about how symbols can be twisted into very negative thoughts, ideas, symbols.
Just take the US flag. Good for some, neutral for a lot....very very evil for many others. Sometimes just showing the US flag will bring thoughts of good things, neutral things (just a flag), or bad thoughts.
Hmm...in which case...my avatar should bring some thoughts into people's minds...good, bad, or otherwise.
yes, some were racists..... but lets put it in a different way
their ENTIRE ECONOMY was based on it.
yes, racism is wrong, but slavery was even practiced in the north, the system of working people 12 hours a day for almost no money at all.
the british went against the US, mexico went againt the US, and do u mind people flying those flags?
their ENTIRE ECONOMY was based on it.
yes, racism is wrong, but slavery was even practiced in the north, the system of working people 12 hours a day for almost no money at all.
the british went against the US, mexico went againt the US, and do u mind people flying those flags?
Moderator Action: I am seriously about to close this thread because people don't seem to be capable of a real discussion. The next person to post an insult is going to get banned and this thread will be closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Yes, but they had decades to change and they didn't because they felt they had the right to enslave their workers - at least if they happened to be black.
That's not slavery. Migrant farm workers are treated the same way today. It is wrong because it is exploitation but it isn't slavery.
They are still countries today and their flags are not a symbol of racism to most people as are the Nazi flag and the Confederate battle flag. OTOH the South lost the war over 140 years ago and here we are still fighting it and over the same grounds.
Okay, and the American flag is traitorous because it promotes succession from Great Britian.
Here in the south, many people who show pride in the Confederate flag do it because they like the south, not because they're racists. It's probably very different in the north, though.
I think anyone who judges a person as a racist because he's flying the confederate flag is almost just as bad as a person who judges a person as inferior because he's black. Oh, and I think that no public property should show the confederate flag (unless it's a musuem or something, of course); people should only fly it privately.
Edit: Oh, and to those who say there were reasons for succession besides slavery: Like what? Economic and social reasons? Oh, as in slavery (economic) and racism (social)? The truth is, AFAIK, racism is the only reason for the Confederate states to want to seperate, besides other reasons connected to racism.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
You apparently know most people see it as a symbol of racism particularly blacks yet for some reason you continue to believe it is not. Please explain.
BTW, I have lived in the South a large portion of my life. The inherent racism caused me to leave when I became an adult 30 years ago and I have recently retired back to Florida where I went to high school. Much has changed but much hasn't.
BTW, I have lived in the South a large portion of my life. The inherent racism caused me to leave when I became an adult 30 years ago and I have recently retired back to Florida where I went to high school. Much has changed but much hasn't.
aaminion00
Stoned
Nice theory, but no. The average Southerner was already feeling seperated from the Northern States. A sense of Southern Unity had existed for decades, and was very much present on the brink of the civil war. If you actually read the diaries of the Southern men who first rushed into the war you'd see that they did it to protect their "homeland", and "keep the yankees out", etc. etc. Vast majority of them could have cared less about blacks.
You said
"The biggest mistake the founders of the Constitution ever made was allowing each state to make their own laws. The only reason they did so was because they knew it was the only way to get the Constitution ratified"
Which was correct. I asked why you thought it was a mistake. Allowing the States to do what they wanted set up the United States of America as we know it. The Constitution initself was a big step up, as it greatly reduced state rights. Before the constitution, each state had it's own currency and was setting up colonies in the lands won several decades earlier in the French-Indian war. The constitution lay the groundwork for the superiority of the Federal Goverment as opposed to the local ones. This was, what led to the abolition of slavery.
What would've happened if the founding father's had told the Southern States that they couldn't make their own laws? Many of them probably wouldn't have wanted any part of the union. And what then? They would've probably united into an even earlier CSA, and we'd still be having slavery. At least the abolitionist in the pre civil-war could've made the arguement that if the majority of states in the Union disagreed with slavery, the slight minority (Southern States) would have to abide by this.
Or even worse, since 9 out of 13 colonies (I believe that was the number) needed to ratify the constituon for it to be allowed (under the principles set up by the articles of confederation), had the Southern States vetoed it (as many of them, and some Northern States, surely would have had they not been given many state rights. Realize that state rights were the biggest reason why many were hesitant to adopt the constituion) the United States of America as we know it would never have existed. What would've happened then? Would we have gone back to Britian begging for mercy, and adopted the British crown yet again? If that was the case, who knows when slavery would've been abolished.
Exscuze me oh wise man of 31 posts. I've been here for a little while (certainly not as long as others), and if a user had been banned for every time a comment as "harsh" and "severe" as mine came up, these forums would've been empty by now. And another thing. Whenever I post something like that, it's immediatly followed by a paragraph or two explaining where that person is wrong. Very different from those who get banned that post insults, accusations, and swear at another poster without posting any sort of debate afterwards.
I'm sure it's very nice to bend everyone's arguement to meet your point, but he was talking about the flag and not the nation as a whole.
They were starting to change. Slavery in the South was starting to die out and an abolitionist movement was appearing. The industrial revolution would've probably affected the South as well if it wasn't for the damn cotton gin.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
In most cases the average white Southerner hated blacks. They thought they were their intellectual inferiors and they were consequentially treated like dirt. This trend continued long after the South lost the war and is still practiced by many even today.
The average Southern white man during the Civil War despised the idea of the abolition of slavery because they feared what would happen next.
To now try to claim the Civil War wasn't about slavery is like trying to claim the War in Iraq is about freeing a people from a mad tyrant, or 9/11, or some other convenient excuse.
Wrong. Britain, like the rest of Europe outlawed slavery long before we did.
It was an intentional flame and you got warned for it. Nuff said.
What? Isn't a nation's flag nothing more than a symbol for that nation? How can you differentiate them?
You forget the tobacco plantations and all the other farming that is labor-intensive. The North had factories but all the South had were the plantations.
The bottom line is that the south has always had severe racial tendencies and they have always resented the north forcing them to give up their slaves. The Confederate battle flag represents this hatred and racism and many people in the South are still fighting the stupidest war of all time.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
Sorry, but I don't remember saying I was proud of some Southern heritage. Nor do I fly the flag. What I'm saying is that people who wish the South would have been victorious are not nostalgic for slavery, but for their percieved autonomy of the Southern states. I was trying to show that there aren't many Southerners who actually believe slavery would exist if it weren't for those meddling Unionists.
You can argue a point and not be emotionally attched to it.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
So you think most people are completely wrong and that the Confederate battle flag isn't really a symbol of racism and hatred at all but is merely the emblem that states-rights advocates have decided to adopt in their next attempt to overthrow the legitimate government of the US in order to restore the power of the states that once existed?
