And this was different than the average white Northerner in what way? The Civil War was just as much (if not more) about green than it was about black and white.
To most white Southerners: Justify using the Confederate flag!
- Thread starter Sims2789
- Start date
And this was different than the average white Northerner in what way? The Civil War was just as much (if not more) about green than it was about black and white.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
The green was what the plantation owners lost when slavery was abolished. Nothing more. They demanded to be paid for their loss and the North rightfully told them to go suck weeds.
Sure, there was racism in other parts of the country. The big difference was you could no longer own blacks as you still could in the South.
Sure, there was racism in other parts of the country. The big difference was you could no longer own blacks as you still could in the South.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
sims, you failed to answer one of my questions: do you believe the hammer and sickle icon is "un-American?"
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
Again you try to argue absolutes as if we are completely ignorant of diverging opinions. The truth of the matter is that most people who fly the flag are probably racist, but not pro-slavery. They would rather the blacks leave the United States. There are people who also fly it and are not racist, but do not like a 150 year old precedent set for the supposed disrespect to state's rights exercised by the Union.
Lets say that it represented pro-slavery and could not represent anything else. It does not matter since the law of this great nation protects opinions no matter how stupid or innappropriate anyone may think they are. Sorry, but certain Southerners will continue to fly the flag for probably hundreds of years to come when the ideas behind are more convoluted than now. And there is nothing you could or should do about it. If you would willingly prevent these people from displaying the Confederate Battle flag then you would be fascist. About 2 minutes from pro-slavery.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
He has a three day ban. I hope he enjoyes his time off almost as much as I will.
P.S. Is Veers coming back in two days or is he permbanned due to his second account.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I never said that. Like most people I think it represents racism and hatred.
I guess you failed to read my first post where I stated that the First Amendment gave racists the right to fly the flag from their pickup trucks. I see nothing wrong with this as I see nothing wrong with Neo-fascists holding a rally wearing KKK uniforms and Nazi emblems. It is their constitutional right to publicly make asses of themselves.
Believe it or not, my school uses the Confederate flag as one of its symbols! It's slightly modified so that it doesn't have two of the stars that the real Confederate flag had, but that doesn't make any difference. And I live in Indiana!
Fortunately, the flag's usage at my school has dropped off considerably amid complaints that it was a racist symbol (it was removed from our school gym a few years ago), but it still persists as a school symbol.
Fortunately, the flag's usage at my school has dropped off considerably amid complaints that it was a racist symbol (it was removed from our school gym a few years ago), but it still persists as a school symbol.
aaminion00
Stoned
That's true. That doesn't mean that they would be willing to risk their live's to let the upper class Southern aristocracy. Like I said, look into it a bit more. Based on the written records and what is known, most of the lower class Southerners who had joind the war joined to defend the South against the North, not to defend Slavery, an intellectual debate that was far above them and didn't apply to them and their concerns. At least not enough to forge a serious arguement.
Also true. This feeling was however greatly intensified because of the loss to the North and Lincoln's moral justification of it. The war ended up giving the slaves freedom while, in their eyes, left them in a position like dirt. Go back to 1866 and the average Southerner would tell you that they hated Lincoln and Northerners just as much as they hated blacks.
The richer ones did because this translated badly for them. This was also greatly due to the cotton gin and resurgance of the slave trade that it had created.
But I didn't say that the war wasn't because of slavery. I just said it wasn't simply because of slavery. Slavery was indeed the spark that set up the civil war, as it made the powerful slave-holding part of Southern society worry about their future. To say that the Civil War was simply a matter of slavery vs. abolitionist is wrong, because it was merely the final straw upon many other differences between the North and South. I think you got your comparisment reversed. To say that attacking Iraq is to free the people is what Bush did to gain a moral justification from the American people. To say the civil war was just about slavery is just as bad. It was, just like iraqi freedom/people, the moral justification for the war.
I knew you'd say that. And I suppose this was a truly revolutionary decision on Britian's part, seeing the immense presence slave labor had in the predominantly rural country that was England during the industrial revolution. Let's be serious here. You think that if Britian controlled the South during this time that they would've abolished slavery as quickly? If they tried, it would've been the straw that broke the camels back, and the South would've just secceeded. Britian would've faced the same dillemnas the U.S. did and therefore wouldn't have been able to abolish slavery so quickly and efficiently.
Where exactly did I get warned.
There in lies the conflict. You say that the nation of the CSA was based simply on slavery, and that the confederate flag was merely a symbol of this opression. I say that while slavery played a big role, there were many other factors, and that the CSA flag represents mostly these other factors. The CSA flag represents (in many people's minds) the South finally gaining independence and no longer being controlled by a country that was a polar opposite. Slavery was just a part of this to the average Southerner.
While it's true that the South has always had racial tendencies, to say that the Confederate battle flag represents the fight to enslave a people is wrong. It stands for a lot more to most people, and therefore people should be allowed to fly it if they wish. The only reason rednecks in the North wear it is because they want to represent racist beliefes, and they use the flag that has been associated with racist belief ever since the North won and created their version of history (war was to free the slaves... blah blah blah).
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Originally posted by h4ppy
He has a three day ban. I hope he enjoyes his time off almost as much as I will.
Whoops. Must've skipped over that post. Most moderators I've seen here don't put their moderation after using the quote feature, they just edit the thread and then put it in there.
Disclaimer: that is not a judgement on anyone's moderating style.
I believe he was permbanned (though his title doesn't reflect this), he actually registered a third account after the Titan account was permbanned.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I agree there were other factors but I keep hearing the same thing from neo-Southern revisionist historians - that the Civil War was really about economics or states rights not slavery. That is a total crock because the next words out of their mouths is always "slaves" or "slavery".
There is no justification for our illegal invasion of a sovereign country but that's probably best saved for a different thread.
Actually Britain was at it's height of economic imperialism and had colonies all over the world. While the industrial revolution was going on in England it certainly wasn't in Africa. I believe the US was the last remaining white country where it was still practiced. It was long overdue.
I complained about your flames and a warning appeared. Look back in this thread.
Once again, for the most part they were reacting to the idea that the Northerners were trying to tell them what to do - to get rid of their slaves. Sure there were other factors but as even you stated this was the real catalyst which caused the South to seceed.
The predominate reason why rednecks in the South still display it is also racism. There is no difference.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
So why do you care?
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
So why do I care about what?
Racism? I think it sucks.
The Civil War? I think the right side won.
The Confederate battle flag? A good way to spot racists.
The South? Still fighting the stupidest war of all time.
The First Amendment? I'd die defending it. Anybody have Ashcroft's home address?
Racism? I think it sucks.
The Civil War? I think the right side won.
The Confederate battle flag? A good way to spot racists.
The South? Still fighting the stupidest war of all time.
The First Amendment? I'd die defending it. Anybody have Ashcroft's home address?
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
About people flying the Battle Flag. You think its almost exclusively racist. Thats fine. I think that there are many who don't consider it racist and are truly not racist themselves. We both agree they should be allowed to fly it. Since there is no way to know the true feelings of most southerners with a flare for Confederate sentimentality there is no reason to discuss any further. I simply got carried away with a futile discussion. Stupid on my part, but I don't retract what I believe to be a common sentiment among certain southerners.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
You might be a redneck if...
I was walking the other day and I passed a monster truck in a driveway. On the back window it said "Heritage not Hate". I think they are synonymous.
I was walking the other day and I passed a monster truck in a driveway. On the back window it said "Heritage not Hate". I think they are synonymous.
Originally posted by Formaldehyde
You might be a redneck if...
. . . you don't consider the term redneck racist.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I'm white. How could it be racist? Besides it was intended as a joke.
However, I think Bill Maher summed it up best on his latest TV special. "It is time to no longer tolerate intolerance."
However, I think Bill Maher summed it up best on his latest TV special. "It is time to no longer tolerate intolerance."
CenturionV
Warrior Forever
man all this fuss over a flag.....in reality its way more traitorous to fly the U.S flag than the confederate one, the confederates had full right to use there ability as FREE people who FREELY joined the union, to FREELY leave. Were as the revolutionaries were bound the king of england by oath and had no legal right to break away. the civil war had very little to do with racism.
Using the term redneck can have no meaning except a racist one. Don't give me this Jeff Foxworthy I was only joking bs. And don't give me any heritage bs either. Since someone takes offense to the term as racist, it can have no other meaning other than its racist meaning. Why should the term be tolerated or given any thought about?
This argument sound silly? Consider the source I borrowed it from.
There you go again trying to strengthen your point with bolded text.
Just because the Union didn't recognize the legitimacy of the Confederate government (which was democratic, by the way, so this nonsense about a "revolt from democracy" is just that, nonsense), doesn't mean it wasn't legitimate. By that logic, the US wasn't a legitimate government for quite a while after its formation, as the UK didn't recognize it for quite some time, and neither is the current government of Taiwan legitimate, as Beijing still considers it a rogue province. All parties to a social contract have the right to unilaterally secede from the social contract - as there is no legal authority in place to say otherwise - and the south was merely exercising that right. Using force to compel them to rejoin the Union was nothing short of tyranny.
I don't like the south. I find southern culture to be repulsive on a personal level. However, flying the Confederate flag is merely a display of intense disapproval of northern aggression and tyranny, so I haven't a problem with it. I believe the south had the right to secede the first time, I support their right to do it now, and quite frankly I hope they try it again and are successful this time. I for one, will be glad to be rid of them. And, we won't have any more Presidents from Texas, which is a good enough reason to kick them out for me.
