To most white Southerners: Justify using the Confederate flag!

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
I am fairly well read on history. I am also apparently quite a bit older than either of you so I no longer believe I have all the answers.

The main reason behind the Civil War was and will always be the issue of slavery and how to deal with the abolition despite what some Southern revisionist instructors might try to tell you in school.

Furthermore, the South was wrong and the North was right. The good guys won and the bad guys lost. Now please get over it.

Racism offends me. It always has and it always will. However, I am not intimidated by it. If I was I wouldn't be living in the deep South right now. Millions of black are also offended by it but the people who continue to fly the Confederate flag don't seem to care. I wonder why?

A whole page of posts appeared before I could reply.
#1. I am a history major, focussing mostly on military history, I think that makes me more of an expert than you.
#2. It wasn't about slavery. When my INS interviewer asked "What caused the Civil War?" I gave him the whole speel on economics and states rights and he added "just say slavery," "ok slavery" Why? because that's the simple answer just anyone can know.
#3. It wasn't a flame because I could have used much more caustic words.
#4. When talking about the swastika I was referring to the symbol, the ancient one. The Nazi's adopted it and thats how the rest of the undeducated world know about it. I am Polish, so I have a particular spot in the pit of my stomach for Nazism and I am not insensitive to the Holocaust, I know atleast one relative that was lost in the camps.
#5. I took a quick poll of everyone I could get ahold of last night and asked them what they're opinions were on the Battle Flag of the Confederacy. The overwhelming responce was neutral "I don't have a problem with it" They didnt say "Let's go lynching". I'm a white immigrant, does that me me racist? I went to a mostly black high school, made many friends,and I am nearly a college graduate that is very well read in history, so I believe that makes me fairly well informed.
#6. The right side one and the evil side lost? What sort of language is that? They sure didnt see it that way. Infact, anyone that used religion as a excuse for slavery sure didnt see themselves as evil. So I guess good triumphs over evil every time? Does that makes the Ottoman turks the good and the Christian crusaders the evil party??????
#7. And stop putting words in my mouth. I know what I said and I certainly did not say the things you attribute to me.

I usually only post when I have something important to say, so stop biting my heels because I took time to what I did.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Originally posted by Speedo
Somebody will be offended no matter what you do. Thats why we have freedom of speech here.

Once again, and hopefully for the last time, I agree.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow


#1. I am a history major, focussing mostly on military history, I think that makes me more of an expert than you.

You don't have the faintest idea of whom I am or what my background might be. However, I do know the educational system in the US is in decline and college these days is considered to be the same as high school when I was a student.

Since you are a history major you should know by now you prove your point with references instead of flames. Let's see some citations for a change.

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
#2. It wasn't about slavery. When my INS interviewer asked "What caused the Civil War?" I gave him the whole speel on economics and states rights and he added "just say slavery," "ok slavery" Why? because that's the simple answer just anyone can know.

Your INS interviewer??? Exactly how long have you been in this country?

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
##3. It wasn't a flame because I could have used much more caustic words..

Sorry, that makes absolutely no sense. Please do try again.

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
#4. When talking about the swastika I was referring to the symbol, the ancient one. The Nazi's adopted it and thats how the rest of the undeducated world know about it. I am Polish, so I have a particular spot in the pit of my stomach for Nazism and I am not insensitive to the Holocaust, I know atleast one relative that was lost in the camps.

Then you must also know it was the symbol of Nazism. If you see the Swastika displayed today in the US you can be sure it is the reason, not that the local people believe in ancient dieties. Please.

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
#5. I took a quick poll of everyone I could get ahold of last night and asked them what they're opinions were on the Battle Flag of the Confederacy. The overwhelming responce was neutral "I don't have a problem with it" They didnt say "Let's go lynching". I'm a white immigrant, does that me me racist? I went to a mostly black high school, made many friends,and I am nearly a college graduate that is very well read in history, so I believe that makes me fairly well informed.

You can believe what you want but I can't imagine a black telling you the Confederate flag didn't bother them.

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow

#6. The right side one and the evil side lost? What sort of language is that? They sure didnt see it that way. Infact, anyone that used religion as a excuse for slavery sure didnt see themselves as evil. So I guess good triumphs over evil every time? Does that makes the Ottoman turks the good and the Christian crusaders the evil party??????

In the eyes of the victorious Ottomans, yes.

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow

#7. And stop putting words in my mouth. I know what I said and I certainly did not say the things you attribute to me.

What exactly was that? If you are going to complain at least provide a detail or two.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
This whole "We weren't fighting for the right to own humans but because we hate Northerners who were telling us what to do" and "there is nothing wrong with the Confederate flag or the swastika" seems to be the new credo of the Southern ultraconservatives.

You're not giving us much credit in the intelligence department are you? And I NEVER said I supported the swastika or its popular symbolism.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Who is us? You are apparently a foreign exchange student who thinks he must know more about US history than a 50-year-old American citizen who has lived in the South and experienced the changes in racism first hand for over 20 years.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
You don't have the faintest idea of whom I am or what my background might be. However, I do know the educational system in the US is in decline and college these days is considered to be the same as high school when I was a student.

Spoken like someone who never went, or dropped out of higher learning. Btw, I let my words speak for me, you don't need to know more than that.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
Since you are a history major you should know by now you prove your point with references instead of flames. Let's see some citations for a change.

Ditto. Something poeple just absorb and it becomes part of their knowledge base. I don't have footnotes for everything I know.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
Your INS interviewer??? Exactly how long have you been in this country?

18 years, next question.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
Sorry, that makes absolutely no sense. Please do try again.

If my intent was to flame I would have been using must nastier words than just dummy. That was just to get your attention and it worked.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde

Then you must also know it was the symbol of Nazism. If you see the Swastika displayed today in the US you can be sure it is the reason, not that the local people believe in ancient dieties. Please.

Derrrrrr. I'm not ignorant of it's present connotations. But what if YOU saw a buddhist priest wearing a garment decorated with that symbol, what would you do??? The pinwheel of the swastika is an ancient symbol used by many cultures. The Nazis turned it on its side and made it bold, put it on a field of red. I'm not stupid. I know THAT is the symbol of nazism, not the original pinwheel.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Formaldehyde
You can believe what you want but I can't imagine a black telling you the Confederate flag didn't bother them.[/QUOTE]
True, but this thread is about southerners justifying it.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
In the eyes of the victorious Ottomans, yes.

There, you just said it. OPINION, Not FACT. So It's just your opinion that the North was good.

Originally posted by Formaldehyde

What exactly was that? If you are going to complain at least provide a detail or two.

See previous post.

You are a northern transplant, you were not raised here in your formative years, so you can never trully be a southerner. I am not an exchange student, I am an immigrant and the product of my the local educational system and the school of hard knocks.

 

[MarineCorps]

Have a Q for you Formaldehyde, do you understand what trolling means? Age makes no difference nor does experience, I'm 16 yet I am smarter then my parents who are over 40.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yes I know what trolling means. I think wyrmshadow's original post where he flamed me was definitely trolling and so is this last one. Woudln't you agree?

 

[sonorakitch]

I am fairly well read on history. I am also apparently quite a bit older than either of you so I no longer believe I have all the answers.

I doubt that, as you have not included your birthdate on your profile. But I didn't either. But I guarantee you I am older.

The main reason behind the Civil War was and will always be the issue of slavery and how to deal with the abolition despite what some Southern revisionist instructors might try to tell you in school.

You are plain wrong sir. Again, check with a date-sensitive historical reference if you'd like. I was not taught in the south, nor was I taught by confederate sympathizers. The simple fact is that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about countless trounces committed by the North on the South's Federalists' rights. Simple fact. Case closed.

Furthermore, the South was wrong and the North was right. The good guys won and the bad guys lost. Now please get over it.

I agree to some extent. I am not from the south. There is nothing for me to be over.

Racism offends me. It always has and it always will. However, I am not intimidated by it. If I was I wouldn't be living in the deep South right now. Millions of black are also offended by it but the people who continue to fly the Confederate flag don't seem to care. I wonder why?

Racism offends me too. But you need to understand...for many the Confederate flag is a symbol of regional pride; the last great token to a great but failed struggle against (a perceived) northern threat to the Southern man. There are indeed many blacks who are indeed offended, as there is many Native Americans who are offended by the term Indian, and just as I am offended of the association of Germans being Nazis by some (my family emigrated to the US from Germany). My take on the issue is this: if those who wish to fly the Confederate flag, they should be able to do so. Again, with 300 million people in this country and another 5 1/2 billion or so, it is really quite easy to offend one another. In fact, growing up offended tends to build character!

~Chris

 

[Formaldehyde]

Originally posted by sonorakitch


I doubt that, as you have not included your birthdate on your profile. But I didn't either. But I guarantee you I am older.

I have never met so many people who claimed to be omniscient.

Originally posted by sonorakitch
You are plain wrong sir. Again, check with a date-sensitive historical reference if you'd like. I was not taught in the south, nor was I taught by confederate sympathizers. The simple fact is that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about countless trounces committed by the North on the South's Federalists' rights. Simple fact. Case closed.

Omnicience again about a subject that many knowledgeable people continue to disagree masqueraded as 'fact'. Shame on you.

Originally posted by sonorakitch
Racism offends me too. But you need to understand...for many the Confederate flag is a symbol of regional pride; the last great token to a great but failed struggle against (a perceived) northern threat to the Southern man. There are indeed many blacks who are indeed offended, as there is many Native Americans who are offended by the term Indian, and just as I am offended of the association of Germans being Nazis by some (my family emigrated to the US from Germany). My take on the issue is this: if those who wish to fly the Confederate flag, they should be able to do so. Again, with 300 million people in this country and another 5 1/2 billion or so, it is really quite easy to offend one another. In fact, growing up offended tends to build character!

As I said numeous times already it is their First Amendment right to make fools of themselves. However, they should also realize they should pick a better symbol which is not so commonly used by racists. I would say the same thing if they brandished a Nazi flag.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
Yes I know what trolling means. I think wyrmshadow's original post where he flamed me was definitely trolling and so is this last one. Woudln't you agree?

I do not think you do. The term trolling comes from the fairy tale "The Billy Goats Gruff" by the Brother Grim. That's also where we get our saying "The grass is always greener on the other side" IN that story the troll hid under the bridge and waited to scare off the goats and would hide again, only to scare until he was booted off by the biggest goat. Trolling on the net means you go looking for trouble, post some nonsense and then go back to hiding. I now deeply involved with this ariticle even though I got in at a late stage, that doesnt make me a troll anymore.

And sonorakitch, bravo on that last paragraph.

 

[MarineCorps]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
Yes I know what trolling means. I think wyrmshadow's original post where he flamed me was definitely trolling and so is this last one. Woudln't you agree?

No I do not agree, and for the last time he didn't flame you, he wasn't even talking to you he was talking to everyone in general.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well then we must agree to disagree. He has even admitted to it twice.

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: Formaldehyde. The moderators will be the judge of what is flaming and trolling. Not you. It appears to me that most of the minor flames you have received are because of the minor trolls you are posting. At any rate, that has nothing to do with this thread and discussion of it will stop.

I also suggest that all of you try to stay away from discussion of the Nazis and/or the Swastika. Each post about one of them brings us one step closer to a flame war.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
It's not a moral issue. It's a constitutional one. Furthermore, it is sedition which is clearly against the law.

So you have no actual personal position on the issue save to defer to the authority of the law, which is essentially pointless for the purposes of such a debate as this, whereby we are discussing the underlying political theoretical basis supporting or opposing the thing in question.

Or am I mis-interpreting you?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Oops. Sorry. I thought I was reacting to him not the other way around.

Originally posted by Hamlet


So you have no actual personal position on the issue save to defer to the authority of the law, which is essentially pointless for the purposes of such a debate as this, whereby we are discussing the underlying political theoretical basis supporting or opposing the thing in question.

Or am I mis-interpreting you?

Personally, I think it was wrong for the South to seceed from the Union. They nearly destroyed this country. I also think Civil Wars are the second most stupid reason to go to war the other being for religious reasons.

 

[ravensfire]

To some extent, the question is about interpretation, and who's interpretation matters the most.

The Confederate flag is a great example of this. To some, the flag is a representation of history, of pride, and of the rights of the State vs the Federal Government. This group gets offended when they see "their" flag being used by racists.

Another group views the flag as a symbol of white pride, of a race of people fighting to keep another race beneath them, or completely remove them from their country.

Yet another group views the flag as a racist symbol, of the forces they and their ancestors have struggled against for years. It represents fear and oppression in so powerful a manner that few things can enrage them more.

So, which group is more important than the other? Which one should have their "speech" triumph over the others? It's the same flag, given different meanings by different people, so who is right?

Is it right to trample on the rights of some to assuage the feelings of others? If so, when does that right occur? Is it based on the intensity of feelings? The number of people in that group? When is it right to silence one group to satisfy another?

-- Ravensfire

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by ravensfire
To some extent, the question is about interpretation, and who's interpretation matters the most.

The Confederate flag is a great example of this. To some, the flag is a representation of history, of pride, and of the rights of the State vs the Federal Government. This group gets offended when they see "their" flag being used by racists.

Another group views the flag as a symbol of white pride, of a race of people fighting to keep another race beneath them, or completely remove them from their country.

Yet another group views the flag as a racist symbol, of the forces they and their ancestors have struggled against for years. It represents fear and oppression in so powerful a manner that few things can enrage them more.

So, which group is more important than the other? Which one should have their "speech" triumph over the others? It's the same flag, given different meanings by different people, so who is right?

Is it right to trample on the rights of some to assuage the feelings of others? If so, when does that right occur? Is it based on the intensity of feelings? The number of people in that group? When is it right to silence one group to satisfy another?

-- Ravensfire

This is an interesting part of this debate which hasn't really been touched on. I do however, disagree with your assessment.

The other option, and I believe the correct one is to not trample on anyone's symbols but rather force all parties involved to accept and tolerate the symbols and beliefs of the others. They do not have to like each other, and they can avoid each other as much as they like, but they should not have legal recourse to force their beliefs on others.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I don't remember the name of the black comedian but he stated that whites had abused the word "******" so much they no longer had the right to say it. I feel the same way about the Confederate battle flag.

When I was going to high school in the 60s every school in the area was being forced by the federal courts to become desegregated. Until then only one black went to my high school - the son of the principal of the all-black high school.

One high school by the name of Dixie Hollins - named after a local potentate - used the rebel flag as the school symbol. They literally surrounded the high school with pickup trucks and defied the buses.

The next day every high school in the county had 200 police with waist-high nightsticks meeting the buses.

Every year in the Spring for the next 10 years my high school had a full scale race riot where students even burned cars and beat up black motorists that were passing by at the time.

When I see a rebel flag I still think of this.

Yes they have the right to display it. No I don't have to like it.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
I don't remember the name of the black comedian but he stated that whites had abused the word "******" so much they no longer had the right to say it.

I feel the same way about the Confederate battle flag. When I was going to high school in the 60s every school in the area was being forced by the federal courts to become desegregated. Until then only one black went to my high school - the son of the principal of the all-black high school.

One high school by the name of Dixie Hollins - named after a local potentate - used the rebel flag as the school symbol. They literally surrounded the high school with pickup trucks and defied the buses.

The next day every high school in the county had 200 police with waist-high nightsticks meeting the buses.

Every year in the Spring for the next 10 years my high school had a full scale race riot where students even burned cars and beat up black motorists that were passing by at the time.

When I see a rebel flag I still think of this.

So, you don't like the rebel flag. That's fine with me. But what gives you the right to tell anyone else what they can believe in and what symols they can use?