I have said for a while now that gold surpluses/deficits are primarily related to Civics, Game Speed, and Map Size. If you are having problems with too much or too little Gold you should post what you have for those three categories, as that can contribute to confusion and misunderstanding between the too much gold camp and the too little gold camp. This confusion then extends to the Religions and Civics discussions, which are intricately connected to gold balance.
Too much gold?
- Thread starter BlueTemplar
- Start date
Petete
Chieftain
The gold question varies from game to game and player to player.
I've recently started a game on Deity on a giant map with 19 AI's and for each one a barb city that may settle into full Civs.
This resulted in such a hostile scenario that at 0 AD there are only 9 civs left and I'm 25 points away from my third great general. Ive faced stacks of 30~40 Unit. My current rival, Maya's have a stack of 51 Javalines that could at any moment head towards my cities. So I've been forced to pump out a stack of 50 stone axemen to counter the threat.
In this case I could use some cash, I sometimes have to put one of my cities creating wealth and only trough conquest have I managed to get 400 gold together. I also am way behind in tech, the most advanced civs are in the classical period I think while I'm just in the ancient.
In previous games I've been isolated and in peace with a very small army since I don't need it. In those cases I have a surplus of 40-50 each turn and over 2000 gold at any given point.
It highly depends on the game.
I've recently started a game on Deity on a giant map with 19 AI's and for each one a barb city that may settle into full Civs.
This resulted in such a hostile scenario that at 0 AD there are only 9 civs left and I'm 25 points away from my third great general. Ive faced stacks of 30~40 Unit. My current rival, Maya's have a stack of 51 Javalines that could at any moment head towards my cities. So I've been forced to pump out a stack of 50 stone axemen to counter the threat.
In this case I could use some cash, I sometimes have to put one of my cities creating wealth and only trough conquest have I managed to get 400 gold together. I also am way behind in tech, the most advanced civs are in the classical period I think while I'm just in the ancient.
In previous games I've been isolated and in peace with a very small army since I don't need it. In those cases I have a surplus of 40-50 each turn and over 2000 gold at any given point.
It highly depends on the game.
BlueTemplar
King
- Joined
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Wow, the biggest army the AI had threatened me with in my game was less than 15 units (around classical), and that was 2 civilizations combined...
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This is Extremely True! And is why we've had such "heated" discussions over too much vs not enough gold.
JosEPh
In Total agreement with this.
The only thing about Religions that needs attention is tech tree placement. Too many instances where after getting the tech that gives the religion is that within the next tech or 2 you can get another if you are the 1st one there.
I need a working tech tree model to be able to give better placement choices so religions can be dispersed in the tech tree pathing better.
JosEPh
The religions as they stand are awesome, but IMO a bit too bunched up on the tech tree so whoever is more advanced gets to that branch of research first and founds several religions.
My thoughts on it were - rather than space the existing religions out more on the tech tree, use the opportunity to include religious sects/schism in a way that might increase the likelihood of a player (or AI) who didn't manage to get to any of the religion founding techs first to have an alternate religious sect (ie. for Christian it wouldn't matter to me whether it was Protestant, Presbetarianism, or even Plymouth Brethren, it doesn't matter so much what it is, just that there is a seperate sect) founded in their Civ, with a holy site (an alternate version of a holy city, with a different religious wonder that can only be built by a GP, maybe slightly different 'regular' religious buildings), resulting from that schism - maybe done by random event, with a higher chance of it occurring if you had no holy cities already, and you must already have a city with the 'base' religion (which is the city where the schism would occur, and schism would not happen in your Civ if you already controlled the holy city for that religion).
I know it's probably nuts, and probably a lot of work (it would technically increase the number of religions in the game, but I'd only envisage sects for a few religions rather than them each having sects, but the method for founding a sect would be vastly different than for founding the base religion and would favour those Civs with no (or few) holy cities but with other Civ's religions spreading in their cities), and I have no idea whether it would produce the desired results - I only tend to play the game on certain maps using certain strategies, hence I do not know what other players might experience and I am still not sure whether this is a good (or even viable) idea.
Anyway that's my mad idea for today!
Btw Joseph I am sorry that I was a bit argumentative and confrontational with you a couple of days ago, please accept my apology
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Accepted Epona. 
And Thank you.
I am a cantankerous old man who gets cranky too and Loves to play C2C. I turned 60 in Feb.
and yesterday was the wife and I's 39th Anniversary
. Not that it matters but too show I am well seasoned. 
JosEPh
And Thank you. I am a cantankerous old man who gets cranky too and Loves to play C2C. I turned 60 in Feb.
and yesterday was the wife and I's 39th Anniversary. Not that it matters but too show I am well seasoned. JosEPh
Petete
Chieftain
You must play on settler or something. Lol!
BlueTemplar
King
- Joined
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- 611
Actually, the difficulty level at that point was around Emperor - Deity, and I don't think it ever dropped below Prince.
The size of stack the AI needs to achieve to launch an attack against a city is entirely dependent on the defenses of that city (at the time it makes the decision). Right now the criteria is overly restrictive, but for sure play styles in terms of how much reserve defense you tned to keep will show up in the size of attacking forces you see.
BlueTemplar
King
- Joined
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Yeah, I had almost no defenders - but since I had a quite high production I was able to build an army to counter those few units in no time. Maybe the AI should also consider the potential of the player to react to the forces sent against him... (though that might be rather complicated to program...)
Like many things in the AI, it's ripe for improvement. Just a matter of prioritising an time.
The big thing I want to work on in the v22 timeframe is distributing the AI's intelligence for prioduction. Right now each city makes totally independent decisions about what to produce. This means tiny new cities with no bonuses spend time making defensive units, rather than 'ordering' them from production centres that are well developed and have XP mods. It also means a stack that determines it needs (say) extra healers has no way to 'order' them from a production city - rather a city has to happen to decide to produce a healer which then may choose to go to the sack its needed in.
DRJ
Hedonist
It's true, right now you can lure enemy into declaring war and then trapping him. For this cases I tend to preproduce 3,4 different units in front cities (when a unit has 1 turn left switch to produce next unit until it has only one turn left etc - just watch that they to do not expire) and then position my main stacks in small stacks behind the front cities.
I think if AI can calculate
to defense 
a good step is taken.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I'm in the Medieval Era and my Gold/turn keeps fluctuating badly. I'll build gold producing buildings but instead of an increase my gold/turn decreases. I did a recalc after the last SVN revision and wish I had not.
The 2 biggest drains on my economy is Civic Upkeep (which imho is out of control now) and Inflation (it's almost 50% of my income). I don't have Usury or Banking yet. They are on the research horizon but I don't think they can overcome this runaway inflation and civic upkeep.
The 2 screen shots show what I was at, and what I have to reduce my research to, to keep even a small positive gold/turn.
I playtest on Noble level and my AI Neighbor is poor as a church mouse too!
Me thinks you all went too far again with this "too much gold" cry.
Hate me for saying it but, "whoa nellie!" Stop this runaway train!
JosEPh
The 2 biggest drains on my economy is Civic Upkeep (which imho is out of control now) and Inflation (it's almost 50% of my income). I don't have Usury or Banking yet. They are on the research horizon but I don't think they can overcome this runaway inflation and civic upkeep.
The 2 screen shots show what I was at, and what I have to reduce my research to, to keep even a small positive gold/turn.
I playtest on Noble level and my AI Neighbor is poor as a church mouse too!
Me thinks you all went too far again with this "too much gold" cry.
Hate me for saying it but, "whoa nellie!" Stop this runaway train!
JosEPh
Joseph, without knowing how you play, what you build/don't build, if you hurry production a lot or at all (increases inflation), and so on and forth, it's near impossible to give a good feedback on your game. If you you post your save game I'll have a look at it to see what could have been done, what can be done, and what will be possible to do, to get your near bankrupt civilization out of the hole.
Cheers
Cheers
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@JosEPh_II
I have not changed or adjusted the gold rate in many versions. Any gold changes you have would be related to how you played.
I have not changed or adjusted the gold rate in many versions. Any gold changes you have would be related to how you played.
I'm having a similar problem actually. Taxes will randomly drop by 15 or so gold a turn, for no reason I can tell. Two saves to illustrate. All cities are building Culture, all units are slept. Between turns, Taxes drop by around 15 gold.
It seems to be linked to pop growth, but 15 gold increase in Taxes from 1 population? It seems to happen at the start of turn, rather than at the end of the turn as with buildings/research.
I can do any more testing you'd like, and I've got the latest SVN (as of around an hour ago).
It seems to be linked to pop growth, but 15 gold increase in Taxes from 1 population? It seems to happen at the start of turn, rather than at the end of the turn as with buildings/research.
I can do any more testing you'd like, and I've got the latest SVN (as of around an hour ago).
Petete
Chieftain
Ow boi, I think I'm in for a very long and bloody game.
P.S. I just made contact with another civ, my score is 120~ their score is 1400~. I'm gonna have to be somebodies for a while. Lol.
I've also noticed those fluctuations and I'm not on the SVN, I'm playing v21 (I think.) I haven't paid attention to it because it did not matter much.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I turned 60 in Feb.
And I thought you were old.
Your not old at all. My dad is around your age (he was born in 1950) and he is not old (though sometimes he acts like it).
In 10 or 20 years maybe you will be old.
Then again by then we could have extended lifespans.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@BG,
Here is the current savegame. I really wasn't experiencing this fluctuating gold/turn and drastic reduction in research % until I did a Recalc on turn 930AD when I updated my SVN to fix a CTD problem. I was running at 60% research with about +130 gold/turn. After the recalc the gold would jump or fall with each passing turn. And not by just a little but I had swings where I went from +60 to -70 from 1 turn to the next. I have been Only building Gold producing buildings, units, or wonders and it would still decrease the gold. In 1 turn I built 2 forums for a +27 gold return and I actually dropped in gold/turn. So I would reduce my % research to get back to a +gold/turn only to have it fall again and again. This is Not normal for my games.
I have made it a practice in this game to avoid gold reducing buildings as much as possible no matter the other benefits. So I actually have only built (for ex.) a 1/2 dozen libraries out of an Empire of 22 cities.
I fear there's a problem with the Recalc. formula. But I don't know. All I do know is this all started when I did the last SVN revision (2097) and then the Recalc..
I playing on Noble level, Epic speed, this is a fractal map with 8 AI iirc. No REV, No Fixed borders, No city limits, Multiple religions, No Storms, Multiple Production and Research, Unlimited Wonders, etc.. You'll see all that when you load it up.
JosEPh
Here is the current savegame. I really wasn't experiencing this fluctuating gold/turn and drastic reduction in research % until I did a Recalc on turn 930AD when I updated my SVN to fix a CTD problem. I was running at 60% research with about +130 gold/turn. After the recalc the gold would jump or fall with each passing turn. And not by just a little but I had swings where I went from +60 to -70 from 1 turn to the next. I have been Only building Gold producing buildings, units, or wonders and it would still decrease the gold. In 1 turn I built 2 forums for a +27 gold return and I actually dropped in gold/turn. So I would reduce my % research to get back to a +gold/turn only to have it fall again and again. This is Not normal for my games.
I have made it a practice in this game to avoid gold reducing buildings as much as possible no matter the other benefits. So I actually have only built (for ex.) a 1/2 dozen libraries out of an Empire of 22 cities.
I fear there's a problem with the Recalc. formula. But I don't know. All I do know is this all started when I did the last SVN revision (2097) and then the Recalc..
I playing on Noble level, Epic speed, this is a fractal map with 8 AI iirc. No REV, No Fixed borders, No city limits, Multiple religions, No Storms, Multiple Production and Research, Unlimited Wonders, etc.. You'll see all that when you load it up.
JosEPh
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