Top 5 leaders on noble vs. monarch

[Sportyatuncw06]

Ok so let me defend my asertation that Churchill, the celts and toku are garbage (really focusing above noble because anything works on noble.


The Brits and UUs come late and that's ok on noble but a big knock on monarch (quick starts are much more important). Cre and pro are weak imo. The -25%exp is nice for warmongering but not crucial. If you do a lot of warring you'll have tons of GGs anyways. Monuments are kinnda waste of production (I often build stonhenge though because it is cheap) popping borders is ok but libraries and temples work for that. Pro offers no good build discounts either (most cities won't need walls/castles) many people never build walls anyways. pro isn't fun to for a neighbor AI but less useful for warmongering.


As for the Celts i think the Dunn is the most worthless UB in the game. I think guerrilla is the most worthless promotion in the game. I have never voluntary given it to any of my troops. I guess if you can get to guerrilla 6 or 8 or whatever it takes to get health benefits and such it is ok but a waste imo. gallic warrior gets nothing. No mele boost like praets. No first strikes or anti first strikes, just a worthless guerrilla promotion. The start tech a junk to (hunting and mystism) only useful if you have deer or something nearby or no axcess to metal and have to build archers. The nail in the coffin is the traits. Bodica (agg/char) and Breenus (agg/spi) are not a good combo. They do nothing for the economy and don't allow and cheap good building other than barracks.


Next Toku. being agg and pro has some uses but is generally overkill. his starting tech are weak but not horrible and his UB will almost never ever get built by me. pollution is not worth the production in most cases. The samurai is ok but macemen have a short shelf life anyways. I avoid midevil war at all cost. It is a slog. Wall/castles/culture makes breaking down defenses slow. Better off waiting for cannons and they can be ok support but greneders and rifles make them short lived. Besides knights fare well against macemen and seige units so you wil need pike support anyway.

 

[Tlalynet]

Leveraging protective takes some preparation (well placed forts) and tactic, but its more powerful as the levels go up as defense units cost less shields and its harder to keep up on units hammer for hammer. When a hill\fort\fortified\longbow eats a stack by itself protective starts to look much better. Longbows can do that sometimes anyway, but protective gives 2 important promotions for stack eating.

To that end Toku is great, you just have to actually play aggressively and protectively, launch an early war, cottage efficiently, launch another defensive war, turn that into an offensive war once you kill the SOD, repeat. Workers are at a premium though since you need both forts and cottages all over fast.

Agg\Cha sounds great, but I have to admit I cant say much for the celts since I don't play them much.

 

[Sportyatuncw06]

Leveraging protective takes some preparation (well placed forts) and tactic, but its more powerful as the levels go up as defense units cost less shields and its harder to keep up on units hammer for hammer. When a hill\fort\fortified\longbow eats a stack by itself protective starts to look much better. Longbows can do that sometimes anyway, but protective gives 2 important promotions for stack eating.

To that end Toku is great, you just have to actually play aggressively and protectively, launch an early war, cottage efficiently, launch another defensive war, turn that into an offensive war once you kill the SOD, repeat. Workers are at a premium though since you need both forts and cottages all over fast.

Agg\Cha sounds great, but I have to admit I cant say much for the celts since I don't play them much.

yeah all that back and forth is too much work, but I can see having strong defensive units for garrison newly acquired cities. Even if you fully utilize Tokus traits and stomp everyone in site there is the major drawback of not having any economic traits/buildings. Your economy will crash hard and be unable to keep up with that dominate military force.

 

[jabberwalkee_]

I think Hannibal can be really good at Noble.

Financial and charismatic have a good synergy, especially at lower levels.

The extra happy means each early city can work one more +1 cottage or +1 coastal tile.

Financial should allow you to enter wars with a tech advantage which means that you will lose fewer of your attacking units which allows you to take better advantage of Charismatic's XP bonus. A single win brings troops created out of barracks up to level 3. After killing your nearest rival you should have an army full of level 4 & 5 troops.

 

[Tlalynet]

My economy won't crash, yours might though. You can still develop an economy without bonuses, just like you can wage a war without agg\pro\cha traits.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Ok so let me defend my asertation that Churchill, the celts and toku are garbage (really focusing above noble because anything works on noble.

[...]

Cre and pro are weak imo. The -25%exp is nice for warmongering but not crucial. If you do a lot of warring you'll have tons of GGs anyways.

It has nothing to do with GGs, it's about units with many promotions. The -25% really starts to add up once you get into the higher numbers. For example, it takes a non-Charismatic unit 26 xp to get 5 promotions. But a Charismatic unit only needs 20.

As for the Celts i think the Dunn is the most worthless UB in the game. I think guerrilla is the most worthless promotion in the game. I have never voluntary given it to any of my troops. I guess if you can get to guerrilla 6 or 8 or whatever it takes to get health benefits and such it is ok but a waste imo. gallic warrior gets nothing. No mele boost like praets. No first strikes or anti first strikes, just a worthless guerrilla promotion. The start tech a junk to (hunting and mystism) only useful if you have deer or something nearby or no axcess to metal and have to build archers. The nail in the coffin is the traits.

I agree with all this. I don't like the Celtic UB, UU, or starting techs.

Bodica (agg/char) and Breenus (agg/spi) are not a good combo. They do nothing for the economy and don't allow and cheap good building other than barracks.

First of all, Brennus is Chm/Spi, not Agg/Spi.

Are you saying that only economic traits are good? That's not true. If you fight a lot of wars, military traits are good too. The Celtic leaders' traits are the only thing good about them. Boudica's Agg/Chm lets you get very powerful units thanks to free Combat1 and discount on later promos. Brennus is more balanced; Charismatic and Spiritual are just helpful all-around.

It's not like your economy will crash if you don't have economic traits. You can still do cottage spam or whatever economic plan you want without having an economic trait. (Edit: Tlalynet beat me to it.)

Even if you fully utilize Tokus traits and stomp everyone in site there is the major drawback of not having any economic traits/buildings. Your economy will crash hard and be unable to keep up with that dominate military force.

Uhh...what? Just because Toku is Agg/Pro, his economy will crash? Not having an economic trait doesn't mean your economy will crash, guaranteed...You can still have a strong economy without economic trait.

Regarding the original topic, I think Industrious is the one trait that really stands out in that it's good on Noble but not so good on Monarch and above. Because you have a good chance of getting wonders on Noble but less chance on Monarch where the AI has a production boost.

 

[Tlalynet]

I forgot to admit the shale plant literally stinks... I doubt there is a worse UB. I've use it to some effect, but given how late and odd it is even the mall is better. I suppose the Dun could be worse, but I haven't tried it so I can't really say.

Ah, level 5 units appearing every 1-2 turns, that is better than a tech lead in many cases. Knight +50%=Unprompted Calvary. A whole army with commando and\or March is very powerful.

 

[Ghpstage]

As for the Celts i think the Dunn is the most worthless UB in the game. I think guerrilla is the most worthless promotion in the game. I have never voluntary given it to any of my troops. I guess if you can get to guerrilla 6 or 8 or whatever it takes to get health benefits and such it is ok but a waste imo.

Dun can often be quite pointless, but it can also be interesting. While it is unfortunate that the promo is limited to Archery units early on, it does add a little offensive potential to those units. G2 Archers can really bog down an AI being both very difficult to move, and a major threat to its Workers as AIs can't work out that a 1 move unit can sometimes move 2 tiles . Not exactly super strong but one of my favourites for being fun

gallic warrior gets nothing. No mele boost like praets. No first strikes or anti first strikes, just a worthless guerrilla promotion.

Guerilla isn't worthless, at the very least it means a Gallic defends odds on against a stock Axe while on a hill, making it useful for stack defence or a competent hill city defender.
Guerilla 2 adds more defence and makes them effective at Worker stealing and fast attacks, then G3 with its 50% withdrawal and 25% hill attack is pretty damn good in itself. Its just a line you need to use creatively and not rely on too much.
Also, Gallics can be built with either Copper OR Iron, this in itself is a considerable advantage. A pretty respectable UU imo.

The start tech a junk to (hunting and mystism) only useful if you have deer or something nearby or no axcess to metal and have to build archers.

The Celts are a little unique in actually gaining an economic benefit from having Mysticism, Monuments are a very cheap extra at 30, especially considering how early it comes (starts with in this case) and that it has no maintenance unlike HR troops.
Although in general I don't like the start techs much either.

The nail in the coffin is the traits. Bodica (agg/char) and Breenus (*cha/spi) are not a good combo. They do nothing for the economy and don't allow and cheap good building other than barracks.

CHA gives an all important extra 1 from the start, and another from a very cheap and commonly built building. I also consider SPI the strongest trait in the game, while it doesn't directly increase your tile yields or reduce maintenance it can do other things to aid your economy (and everything else) i.e. flipping between Caste and Slavery (running both for all intents). AGG i'm not too fond of though.

A whole army with commando and\or March is very powerful.

I can't agree here, both March and Commando have very niche uses.
March is most useful against backwards civs where you don't expect many casualties otherwise getting more strength to be more likely to survive is a better choice.
Commando is limited by needing heaps of XP, coming late and that Siege units can't have it, outrunning your siege against AIs is going to hurt as they defend most of their cities quite heavily.
The only real uses I find for Commando are ones where I have total air superiority and can bomb garrisons into oblivion (this assumes the ability to build a lot of Commando troops) and the other being to follow nukes that empty cities before the commando arrives, in this case 1 commando to take the city is usually enough as you can either raze it, or reinforce along railroads and unlike Paras these can take it despite boats/non combatants.

The Brits and UUs come late and that's ok on noble but a big knock on monarch (quick starts are much more important). Cre and pro are weak imo. The -25%exp is nice for warmongering but not crucial. If you do a lot of warring you'll have tons of GGs anyways. Monuments are kinnda waste of production (I often build stonhenge though because it is cheap) popping borders is ok but libraries and temples work for that. Pro offers no good build discounts either (most cities won't need walls/castles) many people never build walls anyways. pro isn't fun to for a neighbor AI but less useful for warmongering.

Rifles aren't that late, they are one of the most popular breakthrough units on high levels (others being Cavalry or Cannons), better Rifles is always an advantage. Pro is certainly weak at the start but it can be used offensively as early as Longbows if you want. Drill is a very good promotion line, good use of it will lead to a lot of XP for units which works well with CHA and gets more GG points on the side.

popping borders is ok but libraries and temples work for that
Huh? Libraries are expensive and are very difficult to justify before a Granary, Temples offer very little and cost almost as much as a Library (80 vs 90!).... in contrast a Monument is a 1 pop whip (30 )

 

[Tristan_C]

I forgot to admit the shale plant literally stinks... I doubt there is a worse UB. I've use it to some effect, but given how late and odd it is even the mall is better. I suppose the Dun could be worse, but I haven't tried it so I can't really say.

Ah, level 5 units appearing every 1-2 turns, that is better than a tech lead in many cases. Knight +50%=Unprompted Calvary. A whole army with commando and\or March is very powerful.

The shale plant is the only UB that gives any hammers to a city. Coal is also really hit-or-miss on small/crowded maps, too. It can be interesting...

But the real reason to play toku? You get tougher. He teaches us how to play the map, rather than the traits.

----
Finally, a note to Cha people: if you get lots of units with more than 20 exp, you need to stop reloading.

 

[Tlalynet]

That is a good point about the shale plant Tristan, but reloading? Come on.

3 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 11XP unit building city
Barracks Vassalage Theocracy West Point

That's only 5 GG's away from a 20XP build centre, less for mounted units, and after the 6th and 7th GG you don't need the civics for it anymore, and the pentagon also provides 2xp . Usually I keep Theo though the early riffle age and get get L4-5 mounted units and can swap out to OR and still get L4-5 Infantry.

5GG's is pretty well expected in any war focused game, though they start getting uncommon after the 6th, so its much harder to get that kind of production center without a war trait.

@GHP
Air superiority is needed to make an all commando army great, but lacking that a 6-10 unit strike force is even more important, once the war has been going on for a little while the AI sends most of its units to the frontlines, if you move the commando units in at the right time they normally only have 2 city defenders (with culture bonuses) to deal with, sacrifice 2-3 commando's and get a city, its a very good way to break down their production potential. The capital always seems heavily guarded though, so its just their other core citys you can take.

About half that unit needs both commando and march, since you want them to survive, the other just takes the most damaging promos you can give it.

March is a little more for destroying backwards opponents, but is an all around useful promotion for anything you aren't planning on sending to its doom.

 

[Iranon]

Something else about the Shale plant: If you have oil, you have little need for coal as Japan (only relevant for corporations and Ironworks). If you didn't accidentally settle on top of it (boo!), this translates into a health boost that can be more relevant than the hammer bonus.

*

@ threat title: I have no clue whatsoever about Noble. I don't even know whether it's better to eat neighbours immediately or let them grow a little.

At Monarch, things that eat archers for breakfast allow one to go broken early on. As such:

Huayna Capac
Darius
Ramesses
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar



On Deity, I find SPI very beneficial since the game revolves more about responding to the AIs than forcing my own game plan through and I appreciate the ability to wage war without resources (I often want to join some hot AI on AI action).

Huayna Capac
Mansa Musa
Julius Caesar
Darius
Ramesses (possibly Montezuma if we rule out Apostolic Palace cheese)

 

[Sportyatuncw06]

First of all, Brennus is Chm/Spi, not Agg/Spi.

Are you saying that only economic traits are good? That's not true. If you fight a lot of wars, military traits are good too. The Celtic leaders' traits are the only thing good about them. Boudica's Agg/Chm lets you get very powerful units thanks to free Combat1 and discount on later promos. Brennus is more balanced; Charismatic and Spiritual are just helpful all-around.

I'm not saying only economic trait are good, just that I would like to have one. Or at least have a cheapbuilding that will boost the economy or a UB that gives health, wealth happiness... something besides allowing me to be better defensed on a hill when hills are like 5% of most maps

 

[Sportyatuncw06]

So I haven't really seen anything in this post to disuade me from my asertation that the Celtics are the worst Civ and Churchill and Touku suck. I know everyone has a different style and I respect that, but seriously who out there is worse? Make me change my mind, prove to me someone is worse than the Celts, give me you're worst.

 

[Tlalynet]

When you're argument is pretty much that you're economy crashes if you don't have a crutch trait or building its pretty hard to change your mind.

 

[jabberwalkee_]

Finally, a note to Cha people: if you get lots of units with more than 20 exp, you need to stop reloading.

It really isn't that hard to do if you war at tech parity or better. An early axe rush will give you a bunch of units with 10+ XP. Even though many might die, the ones who live get promoted to CR2 and are then likely to have +50% odds against most defenders and then live on to get CR3.

They get promoted to maces. If you do some medieval warring with trebs for bombard and collateral CR3 Maces will never die. Or you end up promoting them to rifles and the same applies (with cannon or treb support).

 

[Tlalynet]

What jabber said about getting high level units is also true, though weather it applies to the quote or not depends on what 'lots of units' means.

And sorry for being harsh sporty, but there are a lot of pretty well balanced civs that appeal to different situations and play styles. A handful are definitely better but there isn't really a need for a worst. Plus you cant really quantitatively compare the value of economic traits to military ones, they work in different situations. Toku is the worst leader for a no unit diplo game, I'll give you that for sure. But for always war Pangea Churchill is better than Elizabeth since even the archer boost will make a difference.