Total War: Shogun 2 and the lessons 2k should learn from The Creative Assembly

[jacyp]

The trouble with that is that it encourages game developers to put out sloppy half arsed products.

Honestly I don't think it's the case of CA. The combat AI for their games isn't a simple thing to do, and there's a lot of other aspects to care and judge on real time mass scaled battles, like phisics, terrain, the dynamic of battle etc.

So to compare the sometimes weak AI of total war games with the weak AI of Civ isn't really fair. The weak AI from Total War games is a challenge and they evolve with each game inside their own series (medieval 2 > medieval; napoleon > empire).

So it's really fair to expect advance from one game to another, and they do deliver.

The Empire case I already discribed here on the first page of the thread. While I don't approve a flawed game of that magnitude at all, I do understand the difficulties of trying to do something as fresh and epic as that game was intended to be. So it's excusable and understandable.

I can't say the same for Civ 5. It isn't new, it isn't fresh and it fails badly while simplifying the game to a point of tic tac toe being more complex.

But you're right, I also hope Civ 5 improves to a great level and Shogun 2 is a perfect hit. There's no reason to hope that they fail, we are on the losing side if that happens.

 

[Thormodr]

Honestly I don't think it's the case of CA. The combat AI for their games isn't a simple thing to do, and there's a lot of other aspects to care and judge on real time mass scaled battles, like phisics, terrain, the dynamic of battle etc.

So to compare the sometimes weak AI of total war games with the weak AI of Civ isn't really fair. The weak AI from Total War games is a challenge and they evolve with each game inside their own series (medieval 2 > medieval; napoleon > empire).

So it's really fair to expect advance from one game to another, and they do deliver.

The Empire case I already discribed here on the first page of the thread. While I don't approve a flawed game of that magnitude at all, I do understand the difficulties of trying to do something as fresh and epic as that game was intended to be. So it's excusable and understandable.

I can't say the same for Civ 5. It isn't new, it isn't fresh and it fails badly while simplifying the game to a point of tic tac toe being more complex.

But you're right, I also hope Civ 5 improves to a great level and Shogun 2 is a perfect hit. There's no reason to hope that they fail, we are on the losing side if that happens.

Totally agree.

I hope it's good for the sake of the strategy gaming community. *crosses fingers*

It does have one important thing that Civilization 5 doesn't have though.

In order to be successful you either need Pirates or Ninjas.

Advantage Shogun II.

 

[Flavorable]

For the first time Im happy for having steam, because it made possible to me to download the Total War: Shogun 2 demo.

What a great game!

Lets see what "revolutionary" things The Creative Assembly have done with this new edition of the total war series:

Hmm, they keep all the good stuff from the past titles and improved then.

Wow, thats is truly revolutionary..I can see why 2k couldnt think in doing the same with civ V.

You know, Shogun 2 will probably sell a lot more than civ V and it is a much complex game. That will prove that you dont need to "dumb down" a game to sell it.

Im really sad with the direction choose by the civ developers and I hope they can learn from the others strategy games on the market.

Everybody here should download this demo and see what strategy games can already achieve. Im really impressed with shogun 2 and the deep concepts in it. I would love to see some of then on my next civ game or expasion.


Sry the broken english.

I'm on the TWC forums more than I am on the Civ forums, and as someone who's played essentially every iteration of both franchises, Shogun 2 is getting just as much flak as Civ 5. The battles are horrible, they don't have the fluidity of Rome, the spectacle of M2, the polish of the original shogun, the depth of Empire or the balance of Napoleon 2. The game is ridiculously unoptomized and inconsistent, lacks any proper modding tools, uses an engine that simply cannot smoothly render large scale melee combat, and sacrifices tons of depth for streamlined simplicity.


Really, if Civ fans didn't have their head up their ass so damn far maybe they'd realize that the things they love about Shogun 2 are the same things new Civ players are loving about Civ 5.


I'm a much better player at Napoleon and Rome then I am at Civ (I can consistently beat 2 expert armies in both Nap and Rome, I can only beat Civ 4 on monarch), but looking at how both hardcore fanbases react to the others games makes you realize how little perspective you guys have.

 

[jojorah]

i did try the game it just didnt apeal to me My friends like it though. Mabey i should try the rome version and see if i like it. And i agree with you that civ 5 is flawed and thats why i go to multiplayer,but so is total war. seeing as i only tried the demo im probably missing out on a lot of what total war has. I know that this sounds like im six but im hoping that the new patch, withch makes the ai not go to war as much will make the ai ready when it does go to war (but i doubt it will work). Any way a large patch is comming in a few days, so try it then and see if civ 5 is improved at all (even i doubt it will to be honest).

 

[bhavv]

Funny thing is people are complaining about the AI in the Total War games, but its still far more challenging than the lame AI in Civ V is

OMG, Alexander declared war on me! Oh I know, I'll just plonk my two archers and a warrior next to his borders and end up destroying everything and getting 300+ EXP per unit if I just sit there training them.

 

[nokmirt]

Funny thing is people are complaining about the AI in the Total War games, but its still far more challenging than the lame AI in Civ V is

OMG, Alexander declared war on me! Oh I know, I'll just plonk my two archers and a warrior next to his borders and end up destroying everything and getting 300+ EXP per unit if I just sit there training them.

I know it is ridiculous how short sighted people are. One time I held a city with two hoplites against 4 hoplites 4 warriors and two archers ( And they brought up further reinforcements on top of those, I was allowed to keep the intiative and built a few units and beat them easily, it was sad because I was far outnumbered). If the AI had been programmed to be half a challenge, it would have won! At least in Total War games the AI comes to get you. It does put up a fight but in CiV battles are just sad. A drunk monkey could kill the CiV AI.

 

[Maniacal]

Even if the AI sucks, I prefer to have an awesome game with poor, but fixable by modders, AI, than to have a buggy game, with buggy EVERYTHING from graphics to the very coreplay, with an AI that sucks and isn't fixable by anyone but the developers who just don't.

Most people that criticize the AI of total war games appear to simply don't know that the AI in total war series is a matter of tweaking and optimizing the database table that control their actions. Something that anyone can do, something that someone always do and improve the game 100% in a matter of few months after release.

The problem with Shogun 2 though is that modding won't be supported, at all. While impressively the modders already unlocked the demo's tutorial campaign so it can be played with any of the factions without being stuck with the scripted tutorial and are working on unlocking the custom battles, the moddability of the full game is unkown and from what CA said will be poor.

While certainly programming AI isn't easy and the Total War games probably aren't the easiest to program good AI for, it doesn't help that until Empire CA never actually had anyone specifically working on the AI! And Empire really didn't show they had someone working on it at all. I'm sure it would have helped a lot if CA had an AI team.

 

[Drawmeus]

I know it is ridiculous how short sighted people are. One time I held a city with two hoplites against 4 hoplites 4 warriors and two archers ( And they brought up further reinforcements on top of those, I was allowed to keep the intiative and built a few units and beat them easily, it was sad because I was far outnumbered). If the AI had been programmed to be half a challenge, it would have won! At least in Total War games the AI comes to get you. It does put up a fight but in CiV battles are just sad. A drunk monkey could kill the CiV AI.

I've beaten those kind of odds in every Total War game ever made.

I understand that people are disappointed in Civ V, but that doesn't make the Total War series good.

 

[Fabiano79]

I've beaten those kind of odds in every Total War game ever made.

I understand that people are disappointed in Civ V, but that doesn't make the Total War series good.

Ill ask again, maybe theres some games out there that I dont know about.

The last good game I played was galatic civ, but I really not into sci-fi. EU its fine, but not a epic game.

If I want to play a great turn based strategy game released in the last couple of years, what are my options if TW and civ sucks?

 

[jojorah]

okay guys like i said before i didnt like shogun total war 2 (im a noob to total war anyways) but i just down loaded the demo for empire total war. To be honest i liked that one more, definatly gonna buy it. But i think that what civ 5 is doing now is doing what empire did in total war. Without empire the recent total war games may have been similar to the likes of the games before empire. I assure you if civ six comes out its going to blow away total war.

 

[ryan1266]

For the first time Im happy for having steam, because it made possible to me to download the Total War: Shogun 2 demo.

What a great game!

Lets see what "revolutionary" things The Creative Assembly have done with this new edition of the total war series:

Hmm, they keep all the good stuff from the past titles and improved then.

Wow, thats is truly revolutionary..I can see why 2k couldnt think in doing the same with civ V.

You know, Shogun 2 will probably sell a lot more than civ V and it is a much complex game. That will prove that you dont need to "dumb down" a game to sell it.

Im really sad with the direction choose by the civ developers and I hope they can learn from the others strategy games on the market.

Everybody here should download this demo and see what strategy games can already achieve. Im really impressed with shogun 2 and the deep concepts in it. I would love to see some of then on my next civ game or expasion.


Sry the broken english.

I was debating trying it out, but now I definitely will! Thanks!
And your English is not too broken, I didn't notice until you said so, just saying

 

[Lanstro]

After the disaster that was Empire, I'm quite surprised that anyone can view Shogun 2 with anything but apprehension. I'm very much hoping it'll be good but seeing CA as a good example of a game developer or as an example that Firaxis should look up to is very misguided.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Shogun 2 demo!?!?! How did I miss this?

Edit: If TW and civ suck then God help us.

 

[Alexastor]

I'm on the TWC forums more than I am on the Civ forums, and as someone who's played essentially every iteration of both franchises, Shogun 2 is getting just as much flak as Civ 5. The battles are horrible, they don't have the fluidity of Rome, the spectacle of M2, the polish of the original shogun, the depth of Empire or the balance of Napoleon 2. The game is ridiculously unoptomized and inconsistent, lacks any proper modding tools, uses an engine that simply cannot smoothly render large scale melee combat, and sacrifices tons of depth for streamlined simplicity.


Really, if Civ fans didn't have their head up their ass so damn far maybe they'd realize that the things they love about Shogun 2 are the same things new Civ players are loving about Civ 5.


I'm a much better player at Napoleon and Rome then I am at Civ (I can consistently beat 2 expert armies in both Nap and Rome, I can only beat Civ 4 on monarch), but looking at how both hardcore fanbases react to the others games makes you realize how little perspective you guys have.

/signed

I think this post sums it up pretty well

 

[nokmirt]

I've beaten those kind of odds in every Total War game ever made.

I understand that people are disappointed in Civ V, but that doesn't make the Total War series good.

Total War is a different kind of game, but no matter, the AI in Total War is better than in CiV. Whether it is a good game or not!

 

[bhavv]

Well, if you have £70 to fork out for a video game, you get the added bonus of getting the best ever strategy game made with your Shogun 2 purchase .....

Chess! Yay!!!!! But for £70? Erm, noty.

 

[jojorah]

like i said before i liked empire. pc gamers are SO WHINEY. Any time something dosnt meet your expectation at least 90 percent then it the end of the world. Take some deep breaths, drink water and realize that just becuase the game isnt as good as you suspected that its not the end of the world, just the end of 50 dollars{or less}. Remember to breath, dont forget!

 

[Demon Rob]

Incredible, people defending the Total War series!
This series is a very good comparison with the Civ series.
Epic feel, loved by the players, and then the series gets stuffed!

Shogun(1) and MTW were innovative and brilliant, but by the end we needed more, we needed a stronger AI. And what did the designers do - they got distracted by fancy graphics and dumbing things down, and guess what - the AI couldn't cope with the game. And then each subsequent release 'we have fixed the AI', except they lied. Commercially it was actually a success it seems, the plebs want fancy graphics and dumb AI, but to the people wanting a serious challenge it changed from preorder as soon as announced to wait for the people to try it to totally not buy it.

Now what other classic gaming franchise does this remind you of?

Now Shogun2 is interesting. Back to their roots! "We've fixed the AI". And they release a flashy demo (which does look nice) but totally scripted and the AI not enabled/not present.

Do not be tricked! Do NOT preorder! But be optimistic and maybe just maybe buy it in May.

 

[jacyp]

And they release a flashy demo (which does look nice) but totally scripted and the AI not enabled/not present.

Do not be tricked! Do NOT preorder! But be optimistic and maybe just maybe buy it in May.

Maybe you should play this MOD: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=428829

Yes, a MOD for the demo. It disabled the scripts in battle to see if there's any AI within the demo, and the answer is positive.

The battle reports present on the thread indicates some new behavior in comparison to M:TW2 and overall people have had enjoyable battles.

 

[Biz_]

total war isn't strategic

play the game without going into any of the battles. snoozefest