Tour de France Thread

[Sir Bugsy]

I can't believe the prologue and the first stage are complete, and there is virtually nothing here about the Tour de France.

I keep coming here to read all the wisdom of my European friends on the doping scandal and who has the best chance to win. And what do I find nothing!

So I suppose it will be up to a very unknowledgeable Yank to start a thread on one of Europe's biggest sporting events.

So here is what I would like to know:

1. Who has the best chance to win this thing? I was going to cheer for Jan Ulrich ( I've always thought he was a good sport and a gentleman after he stopped and waited for Lance Armstrong a few years back.)

2. How much creedance should I put in this Spanish doping probe?

3. Did anyone hear how Thor Hushovd is doing after he was bleeding like a stuck pig? What happened there anyway?

4. How come there aren't any team time trials this year?

5. I am probably wrong here, but didn't there used to be more mountain stages? There are only five this year.

 

[Mojotronica]

1. Ullrich, Basso and Vinokourov were all disqualified as a consequence of the Spanish doping scandal, so now Caisse d'Epargne - Illes Balears' Alejandro Valverde is the favorite.

2. The probe is a huge deal, knocking out several of the top racers and dozens of contenders. It's likely that there IS credence to much of it. They have blood samples. The fact is that cycling has been doped for a long time now and will remain so. It's possible that some of the riders now implicated will clear their names, but missing the tour is a huge deal. And especially bad for Ullrich who probably won't get another chance.

3. Reports are mixed on Hushovd. Last I heard it looked worse than it is.

4. TTT were nixed as a consequence of Armstrong's success using them to gain a huge edge on his competition. Although you might have a hard time getting the Tour de France officials to admit that. It's for the best -- the TTT was a huge loophole that had simply not been exploited effectively before Armstrong's highly organized system went into place.

5. I don't know. There are five mountain stages this year -- I thought that was pretty typical.

 

[Serutan]

@Sir Bugsy - As to why there wasn't a thread started yet, there's this soccer tournament
that is still going on...

There's actually less mountains this year, which puts more emphasis on the
time trials. This of course would have favored Ullrich, and it will make it
hard for a pure climber to win.

I'm really glad they got rid of the TTT. It would have been OK if the TTT results only applied to the team time, but to have TTT results applied to
individual times was to me a crock.

As to who will win now, I don't see that there's a clear cut favorite now,
and it won't be until the first TT that any clues in that direction will
present themselves.

As to Hushovd, the BBC quoted the Tour race doctor as saying that he
believed that Hushovd would be able to continue.

 

[ChrTh]

I can't believe the prologue and the first stage are complete, and there is virtually nothing here about the Tour de France.

I keep coming here to read all the wisdom of my European friends on the doping scandal and who has the best chance to win. And what do I find nothing!

So I suppose it will be up to a very unknowledgeable Yank to start a thread on one of Europe's biggest sporting events.

So here is what I would like to know:

1. Who has the best chance to win this thing? I was going to cheer for Jan Ulrich ( I've always thought he was a good sport and a gentleman after he stopped and waited for Lance Armstrong a few years back.)

It's wide open. At this point nothing would surprise me.

2. How much creedance should I put in this Spanish doping probe?

Depends on who you're talking about. For Mancebo and the Spaniards, they're probably nailed. Mancebo has quit international cycling (or so I've heard) which is being considered an admission of wrongdoing.

Ullrich is under fire; T-Mobile is acting like he's guilty, and he's going to have to prove his innocence (ask Armstrong how easy that is ). It doesn't help that another member of his team was also thrown out.

Basso is an odd case; he's the only member of CSC to be implicated, and unlike T-Mobile, CSC is so far being supportive of Basso. Either the evidence isn't as concrete for him (there's word that one of the pieces of evidence found is prescriptions; well, how hard would it be to put Basso's name on one?), or CSC is just a better team to ride for. Bobby Julich has been vocal in his support for Basso as well.

And then there's poor Vinakourov. He hasn't been implicated at all, but with his team being sliced in more than half, he can't ride.

Here's the thing: there's still over 170 riders competing. So while it's big because Basso and Ullrich are involved, at the same time, I think the Festina scandal was worse, especially since that happened during Le Tour.

3. Did anyone hear how Thor Hushovd is doing after he was bleeding like a stuck pig? What happened there anyway?

He rode to close to the barrier, and a corrugated cardboard 'finger' (like the foam fingers at US Sporting Events) cut deep into his arm at 40+mph. The cut looked a lot worse than it actually is because of all the blood; presuming it doesn't get infected and didn't cut a muscle, I suspect he'll be able to deal with the pain while it's healing. In fact, he may gain a small performance boost from it.

4. How come there aren't any team time trials this year?

What the others have said. I think it's great they got rid of it, because I like it when the riders from 'lesser' teams are competitive, and the TTT always killed their chances.

5. I am probably wrong here, but didn't there used to be more mountain stages? There are only five this year.

Five does seem small, but I think there's usually only six. The tour itself seems shorter this year.

 

[ThERat]

I used to follow the tour, but with all those drug scandals, I have stopped to follow. It's now a competition amongst those who are better at hiding their doping. Almost like track and field. No fun to watch that

 

[ChrTh]

I used to follow the tour, but with all those drug scandals, I have stopped to follow. It's now a competition amongst those who are better at hiding their doping. Almost like track and field. No fun to watch that

No one hides it in Track and Field.

Actually, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. Cyclists are some of the most-tested athletes in the world. Lance Armstrong was tested while his wife was in labor and they were about to go to hospital. Even this scandal only hit a small number of riders.

You do have dopers in the sport. But you never hear the big names saying 'everyone does it', it's always the 175th out of 189 who says it. Richard Virenque or Tyler Hamilton (who still maintains his innocence) or even Mancebo now that he retired or that British dude (Miller?) -- none of them have said "Yeah, I cheated, but everybody does it". The caught ones are the ones best off squealing, but they don't. Why? Maybe because it's not true.

But of course, it's easier to tear down athletes than it is to appreciate their skill, so I'm sure allegations will continue. I used to joke that Le Monde was going to dig up Armstrong's body in 50 years and test it ... now I'm not so sure they won't.

 

[kronic]

What evidence do you need? They found units of stored blood of Ullrich and apparently Basso. That T-Mobile isn't backing him in that case is quite understandable.

The problem in cycling is that that are doping methods that can't be proven if the riders are doing it rightly. The fact that the riders are relatively often tested doesn't help either.

Honestly, I don't see a reason to believe that any of the riders are innocent (that includes the top class riders like Armstrong, Ullrich etc. but also their helpers). I never believed that since I'm following cycling. It would be more honest to legalize doping than to continue to pretend that they can get doping under control.

 

[Eniotna]

Hushovd did start today. His wound is large but fortunately not deep. He got three stiches and will probably not be able to sprint at 100% but already battled for the third place of the first sprint (which he lost but he looked good).

(Although I'm hearing right now on French TV that he doesn't feel good since 10 km, his stomach hurts, probably cause of his medicine)

And yes, a lot less mountain stages, the ITT's are very important (100 km in total), that's why Ullrich was considered the biggest favourite before he had to leave. So, now it's very open. Landis, Leipheimer, Evans, Popovych, ... are complete (both good in TT and climbing), Valverde, Rasmussen, (Mayo?), ... should attack in the mountains to gain the time they will lose in the TT's.

 

[ChrTh]

What evidence do you need? They found units of stored blood of Ullrich and apparently Basso. That T-Mobile isn't backing him in that case is quite understandable.

I for one would like to see confirmation that it's actually their blood. I don't know about you, but when I look at a blood sample I can't immediately identify whose it is.

EDIT: ACK, spoilers! (I'm taping the TDF while at work) ... I'm bowing out of this thread for now, so if I don't respond, it's not because I'm ignoring you.

 

[kronic]

Too bad Ullrich so far refused to give a sample of his DNA...

 

[ChrTh]

Too bad Ullrich so far refused to give a sample of his DNA...

I never said Ullrich was innocent. But just because Ullrich is guilty doesn't mean everybody is. I just think it's sad that people think that way. So much for human achievement.

 

[Eniotna]

I for one would like to see confirmation that it's actually their blood. I don't know about you, but when I look at a blood sample I can't immediately identify whose it is.

EDIT: ACK, spoilers! (I'm taping the TDF while at work) ... I'm bowing out of this thread for now, so if I don't respond, it's not because I'm ignoring you.

Yes, it's not sure yet that the blood is theirs. Till now, the only evidence we have are names (or coded names) on blood bags, documents, phone calls and doping programs for cyclists (at their names).

But "surprisingly", Ullrich doesn't not want to do a DNA-test ...

 

[kronic]

Fair enough. But too many riders with big names got caught in the last decade to believe that cycling is clean. And those who didn't get caught were almost all subjects to rumours. I just don't trust them anymore. Legalize doping and all is fine.

 

[ChrTh]

Yes, it's not sure yet that the blood is theirs. Till now, the only evidence we have are names (or coded names) on blood bags, documents, phone calls and doping programs for cyclists (at their names).

But "surprisingly", Ullrich doesn't not want to do a DNA-test ...

Well, if he's guilty, it's not very surprising to me. I mean, he's in his mid-30s, I'm sure he wanted to win again to prove that he truly was the 2nd-best after Lance, I can see why he'd want to do something like that. Basso makes no sense to me though. Why would Basso, alone of CSC, be involved? I'm not saying he's innocent, but I find it harder to believe than Ullrich.

And let's hold off on citing evidence here. My understanding is that the ICU only got the information on what evidence there was. AFAIK, no actual evidence has been shown to anyone outside Operation Puerto. I'm not saying it's a huge setup, what I'm saying is there's a reason the phrase is "Innocent before proven Guilty".

 

[MCdread]

No one hides it in Track and Field.

Actually, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. Cyclists are some of the most-tested athletes in the world. Lance Armstrong was tested while his wife was in labor and they were about to go to hospital. Even this scandal only hit a small number of riders.

You do have dopers in the sport. But you never hear the big names saying 'everyone does it', it's always the 175th out of 189 who says it. Richard Virenque or Tyler Hamilton (who still maintains his innocence) or even Mancebo now that he retired or that British dude (Miller?) -- none of them have said "Yeah, I cheated, but everybody does it". The caught ones are the ones best off squealing, but they don't. Why? Maybe because it's not true.

But of course, it's easier to tear down athletes than it is to appreciate their skill, so I'm sure allegations will continue. I used to joke that Le Monde was going to dig up Armstrong's body in 50 years and test it ... now I'm not so sure they won't.

Very few of the riders that have been suspended through out the years have never been found doped, have never missed a test. Virenque nevere missed a test, Zuelle never missed a test, even Pantani technically never missed a test. Do you want a big name to come out and say "Yes, I was never caught, but I was doped in all my victories! Haha, in your face UCI!" ?...
For how long do you think EPO was available before there being developped and approved a test that could detect it, and only synthetic EPO for that matter? Years! What about blood doping, which is basically using your own stored EPO? It has been on for years, maybe 20 or 30, then put aside for synthetic EPO, but then recycled because it was the safest method again. But only 2 years ago there has been a test that is able to detect it, but still only indirectly and with many people raising technical doubts. Not to mention the myriad of drugs that are available on the market. The test tracks a few identified drugs only. For those drugs to be tracked one has to know of its existence before, and it may be years before the drug agencies become aware of that specific drug.
If this scandal hadn't come up, these riders would be competing and would end their careers, having been doped for years and never detected. In fact, they were never detected on a test... It would be really amazing that the only network and clinic doinf this stuff is an obscure clinic in Spain...

Now, I am a big fan of cycling, and I appreciate the riders and their efforts very much. But that doesn't stop us from being realistic. In fact, it is a system that works well until these scandals occur. They pretend they're clean, we pretend we believe them, and the show goes on and well. that said, of course I'll be glued in front of the TV watching the stages and admiring the riders, the strategies, the legends.

 

[ChrTh]

One more thing (tm) on Ivan Basso:

If he is guilty, it actually disproves the idea that all of cycling dopes. Otherwise, he would've just gone through Team CSC to get all his doping needs.

 

[Eniotna]

Legalize doping and all is fine.

If you want sportsmen drop dead like Tom Simpson, legalize doping.

 

[ThERat]

I guess legalize is the only way to handle it. I am sick of all those who pretend to be innocent and claim to have never taken drugs. It's simply not true and possible to achieve what they do without enhancing substances. That includes Armstrong as well.

Just remember track and fields (and NO way it is clean), the biggest hypocrit, Carl Lewis, in the end it was revealed he also took drugs...it's just a game of who can hide it the best.

I say legalize it and if they athletes want to kill themselves, go ahead. Else, I ain't gonna watch any of those sports (stopped following track and fields for ages), though I really like the Tour.

 

[ChrTh]

I am sick of all those who pretend to be innocent and claim to have never taken drugs. It's simply not true and possible to achieve what they do without enhancing substances.

You can not imagine how ridiculous you sound saying that. Since I know and respect your work from the SG forum, I'm not going to flame you. But there are two things you're overlooking with this attitude.

1) The TDF predates performance enhancement. By a long shot. If people could ride it in the 30s without enhancers, why couldn't they ride it now?

2) You and I could ride it. Seriously. Granted, it might take 2 or 3 months, and we'd have to take a lot of breaks, but it's not like it's impossible. We're not talking about climbing Everest without oxygen here (which is also not impossible).

 

[ChrTh]

Does anyone else think that OLN is spending way too much time on Lance? Yeah, I mean, he's great and all, but I think I've heard his name more than any other racer so far. Let's move on!