When the answer to a civ specific problem is "lets fundamentally change the game for everyone else, rather than change the civ"..... that answer is almost never right imo.
France/Japan discussion (patch 3.6)
- Thread starter Legen
- Start date
It would, but as you said that's a change that'd effect the entire game, not just Japan. I don't think it's a good idea to make such a far-reaching change because one civ is over-performing in certain circumstances.
pineappledan
Deity
Domination civs as a group are still struggling. Nerfing this 1 major handicap bonus that helps the group, because Japan is doing well and Zulu is doing fine is going to create more problems for the rest of the group.
something to consider:
XP thresholds for promotions are 10/30/60/100/150/etc.
Barracks/dojo/Emperor handicap gives 15+25+20 = 60, exactly the amount needed for AI to automatically hit lvl 4.
This jump at emperor is bigger than the next one up to immortal or Deity. If we were ONLY concerned about Emperor balance, it would be sufficient to reduce the free XP by 5 at all levels, and let that big jump happen at immortal.
defending an idea from mischaracterization and outright falsehoods is tiring.
The sentiment that this idea of mine is bad is sufficient. I'll stop pushing for this idea.
What I would propose is this:
something to consider:
XP thresholds for promotions are 10/30/60/100/150/etc.
Barracks/dojo/Emperor handicap gives 15+25+20 = 60, exactly the amount needed for AI to automatically hit lvl 4.
This jump at emperor is bigger than the next one up to immortal or Deity. If we were ONLY concerned about Emperor balance, it would be sufficient to reduce the free XP by 5 at all levels, and let that big jump happen at immortal.
Spoiler quotations :
defending an idea from mischaracterization and outright falsehoods is tiring.
The sentiment that this idea of mine is bad is sufficient. I'll stop pushing for this idea.
What I would propose is this:
- reduce free XP at Prince/King/Emperor/Immortal/Deity to 5/10/15/20/25, respectively (-5 at all levels)
- scalpel difficulty modification that makes the big step up to automatic lvl 4 units at Immortal. It's the smallest increment we can make.
- remove Barracks, Armory, Military Academy, Minefield, and bomb shelter from the +1
bonus in the UA- halve the number of augmented buildings from 10 to 5. Reduce Japan's founding potential early game from Arabia levels to Mongolia levels. Makes founding less of a sure thing.
- remove Bushido from naval melee
- This was a very recent and very unnecessary buff that can simply be reverted. It's not very historical either. It's probably not a big reason why Japan is doing so well, but there is no good reason to keep it either.
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Yes but it would take less bonuses in
Culture and 
Gold at the beginning compensated by 
Production bonuses as well as a stronger defense (+75% and 20 damage to adjacent enemies).And for a logical evolution,
Production and Defense bonuses should be eroded over the ages in favor of Gold, Culture and finally 
Tourism bonuses (with no defense).My proposals for Japan:
1. Change UA to only give/ to the defense line (Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base)
2. Change Dojo's yields on level up to yields on XP gain.
Separate proposal:
3. Remove Bushido from naval melee. It's purely flavour.
1. Change UA to only give
/ to the defense line (Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base)2. Change Dojo's yields on level up to yields on XP gain.
Gain an instant yield of 1 
from each XP gained from combat on units belonging to this city, before unit XP modifiers (which includes handicap bonus).
from each XP gained from combat on units belonging to this city, before unit XP modifiers (which includes handicap bonus).This becomes difficulty neutral, with the downside of not being increased by Quick Study/Sincerity either. It's ok, we want a nerf.
Player XP modifiers (from policies etc.) and Oil strategic monopoly still increases this instant yield.
Obviously, notifications will need to be suppressed.
Separate proposal:
3. Remove Bushido from naval melee. It's purely flavour.
Legen
Emperor
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I'm not sure about that. Domination civs in general seemed to perform better without the experience bonus being given to everyone, and the three civs that have leveling as a core design element all get their balance wildly changed based on difficulty. This seems more a case of the handicaps restricting civ design, rather than a specific civ being a special case.
Instead of trying to nerf Japan around the leveling mechanic, I'm thinking of just removing the leveling yields and reinforce the GG/GA->GWAM birth instead. This removes the part that makes AI Japan overpowered at higher difficulties, makes them more focused on their most visible signature mechanic and (optionally) opens the possibility for an alternative early boost to theMy proposals for Japan:
1. Change UA to only give
2. Change Dojo's yields on level up to yields on XP gain.
Gain an instant yield of 1
on military/defense mechanic. Here's an initial draft:- Dojo: no longer grants yields from unit leveling.
- Modified UA (changes in bold)
- "Gains
Great General/Admiral points from killing Barbarian Units (250% of their 
Strength). When a Great Admiral or Great General is born, gain 50% progress toward a 
Great Writer, Artist and Musician in your 
Capital, as well as 250 Culture and Science (scaling with Era)." - Note: Naval units generate Admiral points from barbarian kills, all other types generate General points.
- "Gains
With this modification, Japan can use barbarians as an early source of GG/GA points. This is also a historical nod to the origin of the Shogun title, originally "Seii Taishogun", which can be literally translated to "great general who subdues the barbarians" or "Commander-in-Chief of the Expeditionary Force Against the Barbarians". Coupled with the possibility of a big
culture and science trigger if the civ hunts enough of them, Japan gets something to look forward to during the pre-Medieval portion of the game. And hopefully, the values are good enough throughout the post-Classical portion as a replacement of the leveling mechanic.The barbarian hunt mechanic should also be relatively insensitive to AI difficulty for AI Japan, as their bonus vs barbarians is 20% on Warlord/Prince, 25% on King/Emperor and 30% on Immortal/Deity, a minor variation. And the bonus experience handicaps are limited in impact by the 45xp cap from fighting barbarians, so not much of an issue in the first two eras.
Keep it. It is meant to support the Great Admiral birth part of the UA, which was disconnected from the rest of Japan's kit without the Dojo buffing melee naval units.
There is also a historical basis for that. The Mongols reported serious difficulties dealing with Japanese boarding actions, which is why they chained their own ships close together to counter that tactic, and which backfired catastrophically in a sea prone to typhoons. And there was a really good reason for why the Korean Turtle Ship had a turtleback roof. It is often said that the Korean navy won all battles led by Yi Sun-sin, but lost all battles in which he wasn't present. And the reason for that was due to Yi understanding that boarding actions, the prevalent tactic during his time, were suicidal against the Japanese.
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Legen
Emperor
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You'd think that at first glance. Actually, you generate a lot more xp and general/admiral points when your melee units are frequently attacking and taking minimal revenge damage in return. It means they are spending more turns attacking (5 xp and GG/GA, the most out of all options) and minimizing downtime from having to heal. That's especially true against an enemy that prefers ranged attacks, which only generate 2 xp and GG/GA; having your melees only defending from that leaves you with a much lower generation.
Stalemates generally devolve into melee units staying passive and just eating ranged attacks, which is a major drop in xp and GG/GA generation. That's actually a terrible scenario for both the GG/GA->GWAM and the leveling mechanics.
besset
Warlord
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I think France has an amazing and fun UA, and it's very fun to try to win cultural victory as warmonger playing as France. I think France has a really fun niche as a warmonger cultural civ. It's also very fun to capture cities and try to stack as many city capture bonuses as possible. The UU is also very good when it comes online in the early midgame, it's also really fun. The only change i think France needs is in the early game, the civ is very weak and vurnerable at that stage, but maybe thats intended since when the UU comes online you can easily wreck everything and capture your first few cities (i'm talking Deity) and start snowballing. If we do end up changing the UA, is it possible to save the code somehow so that those who like it can reinstate it themselves? Would be a shame to see it go.
Rekk
Deity
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Yields from XP from combat is much easier to do than the other proposal of yields from levels not gained from buildings (which I would say is almost impossible), or levels not from the units first turn in existence (which is very awkward to describe and unintuitive). It could even be scaled based on what level the unit currently is, which still allows for the "quality units give better yields" that the current bonus is meant to portray. Might be biased too far against the AI, though.
Since Unit XP percent modifiers don't affect Great General generation (but player policies etc do), maybe it would be cleaner to reference that. Something like
In fact, if it isn't based on the amount of XP gained and still only the level itself, then you don't need to worry about extra yield scaling from game length... or even XP modifiers at all. Melee combat is based around:
5 XP from attacking
4 XP from defending
2 XP from defending against air or ranged
So one could just choose an average around that. You would still want your units engaging in melee combat so that they level faster to access better yields.
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usadefcon1
Prince
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- Sep 24, 2016
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What's the current status of the France buff? I didn't see anything officially proposed.
pineappledan
Deity
It’s being tested in enginseer’s mod.
The france rework also involves a Huns rework, and the Huns is definitely in need of some balance assessment.
I’m guessing it won’t be proposed this round unless a DLL sponsor specifically steps up to ask for it. Between the tribute reworks and various other civ balance proposals I think this congress is going to get quite full.
The france rework also involves a Huns rework, and the Huns is definitely in need of some balance assessment.
I’m guessing it won’t be proposed this round unless a DLL sponsor specifically steps up to ask for it. Between the tribute reworks and various other civ balance proposals I think this congress is going to get quite full.
Yes, the code will still be saved and may be used for modmod purposes.
BaldSamson
Chieftain
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I took a few months break, so I'm not speaking with full certainty (because I don't know how the metagame has changed) but I agree with this sentiment. I get a hankering sometimes to try and max/stack those culture/prod bonuses.
I also really enjoy playing Japan, so I'm not a fan of changing them significantly.
I manage my own balance layer and I can summarize the changes I've made to both :
France:
50 -> 75 CityConquestGWAM. Conquering cities is hard. (well, I balance to make it difficult)
Chateau:
- Buildable @Masonry
- Reduced early yields, but generous additions at many techs.
- Tourism to adjacent towns/villages/holy sites
- Buildable on forest (I know many purists will cry foul here, but this can help them survive the early game)
Japan:
- Ocean-start preference (it's an island country folks)
- Remove Faith/Culture on defensive buildings (very boring) and replace with +1 faith to ocean resources (helps found, but overall a weaker impact in the mid/late game) and +1 food to ocean tiles. Still requires some thought on city placement
Dojo:
- replaces barracks
- no science (a tough nerf as it's the only reliable source on that side of the tree), yields are +1 prod, +2 culture
- additional XP granted to land units (this was before Bushido was granted to naval units, which I just read about.. so it might need some tweaking)
They are both compelling risk/reward civs and two of my personal favorites. My balance is too weird to compare win rates directly, but anecdotally Japan is competitive in AI hands. France might still need some work, but I hoped that the good work being done on AI combat logic would fix this for me, since the focus fire mechanic is brutal in human hands.
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BaldSamson
Chieftain
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This part still seems to work well, but it's probably boosted by the overpowered God of the Sea pantheon that you can outrace most other civs to since you'll likely be generating faith from turn 1. Even without sea-luxuries, you will be likely to found with a couple fish/atoll. It is balanced by the reduced culture / city, which will cause some unhappiness.
+2 culture is too much here, since you can get to barracks in 3 techs. You also generate absurd amounts of science/culture from your scout (this is not new), but with the addition of bushido to the navy it just all feels a little too easy. If you fight defensively and preserve your units, you can keep up with other strong starters without doing anything special. In my test game, I had no source of iron, so I fought without the UU. I puppeted a few CSs early to stack XP and my units were just too much for the AI.
I will test removing bushido from the scouting line, and changing dojo yields to 1 faith/culture. This should make the start trickier, and hopefully slow down the snowball.
As much as this rework of France works well and is elegant, the +1I really like these 2 new ideas for France and Huns now:
[IMG alt="1687794303457.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1687794303457-png.665585/[/IMG]
[IMG alt="1687794337822.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1687794337822-png.665586/[/IMG]
The French UA name could use a bit of work though
per city on military units does not make much sense to me. Most French rulers with major military victories also contributed massively to the creation and/or modernization of the French state in all domains, not just culture, so maybe the UA could reflect this a bit more.A few examples:
- Philippe II Auguste substantially expanded French territory, and also created French bureaucracy and many existing monuments;
- François Ier went to war with Italy and the empire of Carolus Quintus, but also started the French Renaissance and invited many artists and scientists;
- Louis XIV waged many wars, fortified cities with Vauban, created many economic guilds and fostered arts and science;
- Napoleon I himself also created the Code Civil and many institutions of modern France which stand to this day;
- Napoleon III, although not so successful militarily, implemented massive economic reforms, industrialized France, and transformed Paris.
If I may propose an alternative to the culture per 10 units, we could have
Great Generals and Citadels increase Great People generation, or increase the potency of Great People (counting as extra Great Works, Academies, etc.), or give a bonus for a few turns ( / / 
) upon spawning - that would be a way to recycle the current UA's 40% bonus.I agree with Gwennog, enlistment upon defeat is not really a historical French characteristic, regardless of time period. I do like the idea of increased
supply from population proposed by Pineappledan and Enginseer, as France has historically been fielding massive armies compared to its population (not just under Napoleon).To complement the increased
supply, France can go a few routes which are more fitting of its history:- The Foreign Legion/enlistment bit can have France gain units on city capture (which is the same reward system as Ashurbanipal) or on
peace treaties (which is quite similar to Montezuma). Alternatively, you could have other civilizations "gift" units (similar to military 
city states) depending on France's tourism with them. The last idea creates a positive feedback loop between war and culture in France's toolkit which ties it together, but I don't know if it can be coded (NB: it also makes this part of the UA weak until the later eras, which reflects history but incurs balance issues).- If the UA is really about Napoleon's France, it could be giving bonuses to artillery, of which Napoleon was an absolute master (maybe a free Range promotion). Overall
movement bonuses would overlap too much with other civs.
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This is kind of why it is +1 Culture. Social Policies in the base game are not as impactful compared to VP-equivalent. VP policies pretty much change how your empire grows through time. Your examples could all fit into your getting an earlier introduction to all of the social policy branches.As much as this rework of France works well and is elegant, the +1
A few examples:
- Philippe II Auguste substantially expanded French territory, and also created French bureaucracy and many existing monuments;
- François Ier went to war with Italy and the empire of Carolus Quintus, but also started the French Renaissance and invited many artists and scientists;
- Louis XIV waged many wars, fortified cities with Vauban, created many economic guilds and fostered arts and science;
- Napoleon I himself also created the Code Civil and many institutions of modern France which stand to this day;
- Napoleon III, although not so successful militarily, implemented massive economic reforms, industrialized France, and transformed Paris.
If I may propose an alternative to the culture per 10 units, we could have
No comment.I agree with Gwennog, enlistment upon defeat is not really a historical French characteristic, regardless of time period. I do like the idea of increased
To complement the increased
- The Foreign Legion/enlistment bit can have France gain units on city capture (which is the same reward system as Ashurbanipal) or on
Don't really want to take Gustavus Adolphus's spot which Napoleon was really inspired and studied his battlefield tactics.- If the UA is really about Napoleon's France, it could be giving bonuses to artillery, of which Napoleon was an absolute master (maybe a free Range promotion). Overall
Rekk
Deity
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This would be an interesting use for tourism. Foreign Legions aren't exactly known for incorporating foreign tactics from their enlistors, of course (ie. gaining UUs from other civilizations).Alternatively, you could have other civilizations "gift" units (similar to military
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If by foreign legion you only consider the French colonial troops then the Foreign Legion strictly speaking, I agree with you but if you take the whole history of France, there have always been many foreign soldiers who fought in their own way.
Italian crossbowmen and Condottiere, German lansquenets, Scottish Company, Swiss Halberdiers, Greek Stradiots and Argoulets, Flemish archers, Spanish Carabins,...
An overview, sorry in French
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