Tourism the "Broken" System.

[Toffer90]

I'm in the opinion that tourism could, perhaps even should, have a place in prehist/ancient era.

A brief description on my perspective that may explain my opinion stated above:

Whenever I see the tourism property I usually, in my mind, translate its name to Illustriousness or Greatness/Renown/Glory/Appeal.
I do this because that property should imo encompass more than just tourism; e.g. im- em-migration or trade routes, etc..
Also because I feel all properties should represent something basic that is timeless.
Possible future implementations to C2C, like deeper migration features and such, and creative synergies should be considered when discussing where to go in this matter.​

I haven't given much thought on how the future of the tourism property should concretely look like, but I'm sure there's a need to alter the stats of its autobuilds.
Right now "Tourism (Level 10)" autobuild gives +10 , +110 , and +110
If we thought of it as "Illustriousness" It could make sense to change it to +10 +20% +10% . Edit: An extra 0.1 gold per pop is added to each Illustrious level when tourism tech is reached ending up at 1 gold per pop at illustrious level 10

Certain buildings could have an upgraded version that requires one of the illustriousness autobuilds
e.g. "Marina" replaces "Wharf" and gives more gold than "Wharf" does. (Grand Marina replaces Marina...)
New buildings (or autobuilds that requires more than just a property value): Tourist market/district, Sightseeing "Travel Service"/Tours/Agency, etc.
Stonehenge Ruins - would require a new tag that says that when this building obsoletes build that building in its stead. Force build it regardless of requirements, I assume it's possible for it to then be inactive and not show up as built before your meet all the requirements.

Other thoughts:
Natural wonders, places that leaves an impression on people either due to it providing unmatched fertility, security, or something else that is attractive, are plausible early sources for people to migrate more towards one area than another, for people to congregate in one area instead of spreading out in many small groups. A couple of turns in the first two eras can be a couple of thousand years so it's not far fetched that words gets around, that people far away may have heard the myths about a wondrous place in the direction where the sun sets... or something.

Edit:
Some wonders could require a certain Illustrious level to be buildable, e.g Olympic Games.

The Oracle ▬ Pilgrimage benefits tied to Illustriousness... and so on.

 

[JosEPh_II]

To bring an example that can be considered an unbalanced boost jump, in the Massive MP Game I'm not yet with Classical Lifestyle, but my Capital (due to Unlimited Wonders) is already with more then 500 Tourism accumulated. With my plans of technological progression, I'm pretty sure I'll have more then 1000 tourism when I research Classifical Lifestyle, which will give me 7 levels of Tourism right at once. As Joseph has put, all tourism levels are still triggered with Classical Lifestyle, so this is still an issue in the current version (as the massive mp is already old).

Of course it'll have a huge impact on Crime and Disease, but by training a few healers and town watchmen I can compensate that, and it won't eat too much of my new +70 from all that tourism. IMO Unlimited Wonders is to blame, but maybe this is another reason to rethink Tourism?

When I finish editing Tourism, having 500 tourism already from the game prior to when finally researching Classical Lifestyles, will not trigger 6 levels at one shot. Early levels of Tourism are way too low. And have way too big of bonuses and malus attached.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have to simply object to the idea of twisting tourism into 'glory' or whatever. The idea of tourism is not just to glorify wonders further but to give measurable purpose to elements of the tourism industry, such as hotels and such, which such a conceptual switch would eliminate.

 

[Shoobs]

I have to counter Thunderbird in this regard, or at least side step his objection regarding Tourism is not Glory. In the old days, particularly with Wonders of teh World like the Pyramids, the Colossus, and the big cities, were generally places to migrate to or at least visit WHEN you have the luxury of being able to do so. People from more rural areas like to see interesting things when they are doing trade and so on as well. Some of these were also massive testaments to one's ability to spend resources on things OUTSIDE of things like military / trade / security /etc and usually made big statements to your foes and your friends. Global Tourism before the 1600s were basically for the Elite / The best of the best. Local tourism is another story.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not quite true, Pilgrimage is also a form of Tourism. That pushes it back quite a way. Before that it was basically merchants and diplomats along with some scholars.

 

[Shoobs]

Agreed. Pilgrimage is probably the biggest application of Tourism, particularly at the global level. Still, that only supports Religion having a lot of tourism, not the general empire, along with specific holy cities.

 

[Toffer90]

I have to simply object to the idea of twisting tourism into 'glory' or whatever. The idea of tourism is not just to glorify wonders further but to give measurable purpose to elements of the tourism industry, such as hotels and such, which such a conceptual switch would eliminate.

You would have to elaborate a bit.
Why wouldn't the tourism industry be directly affected by a city's appeal/renown?

Edit: Another digressing thought.
If we introduce a new type of specialist called "Visitors/Travelers", then buildings like hotels could provide one free "Visitor" specialist while the "Illustrious 1-10" autobuilds each add one more gold output to the "Visitors" specialists. The bigger the appeal of the city the more people is represented by one visitor specialist, hence improving the income from tourism.

Spoiler Alternatively a new building tag could be handy. :

<BuildingCommerceChanges>

<BuildingCommerceChange>

<PrereqBuiding>Building_Illustriousness_1</PrereqBuiding>
<CommerceChanges>

<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>​

</CommerceChanges>​

</BuildingCommerceChange>
<BuildingCommerceChange>

<PrereqBuiding>Building_Illustriousness_2</PrereqBuiding>
<CommerceChanges>

<iCommerce>2</iCommerce>​

</CommerceChanges>​

</BuildingCommerceChange>​

</BuildingCommerceChanges>

Agreed. Pilgrimage is probably the biggest application of Tourism, particularly at the global level. Still, that only supports Religion having a lot of tourism, not the general empire, along with specific holy cities.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous post that I think "Monasteries" should increase Illustriousness, also stuff like city parks, stadiums and such.
Also, I think city size should decrease Illustriousness a little per pop., because the property should be a bit relative to expectancy.
Large cities need imo more impressive features than small cities to be called more illustrious in a comparison. A small village that has built a Great pyramid in the middle of the hicks is far more impressive than a great Pyramid built in New York city.
Large cities has a bit more to prove than small ones. Small cities could get quite illustrious without wonders while bigger cities would need wonders more.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You would have to elaborate a bit.
Why wouldn't the tourism industry be directly affected by a city's appeal/renown?

Edit: Another digressing thought.
If we introduce a new type of specialist called "Visitors/Travelers", then buildings like hotels could provide one free "Visitor" specialist while the "Illustrious 1-10" autobuilds each add one more gold output to the "Visitors" specialists. The bigger the appeal of the city the more people is represented by one visitor specialist, hence improving the income from tourism.

Spoiler Alternatively a new building tag could be handy. :

<BuildingCommerceChanges>

<BuildingCommerceChange>

<PrereqBuiding>Building_Illustriousness_1</PrereqBuiding>
<CommerceChanges>

<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>​

</CommerceChanges>​

</BuildingCommerceChange>
<BuildingCommerceChange>

<PrereqBuiding>Building_Illustriousness_2</PrereqBuiding>
<CommerceChanges>

<iCommerce>2</iCommerce>​

</CommerceChanges>​

</BuildingCommerceChange>​

</BuildingCommerceChanges>

Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous post that I think "Monasteries" should increase Illustriousness, also stuff like city parks, stadiums and such.
Also, I think city size should decrease Illustriousness a little per pop., because the property should be a bit relative to expectancy.
Large cities need imo more impressive features than small cities to be called more illustrious in a comparison. A small village that has built a Great pyramid in the middle of the hicks is far more impressive than a great Pyramid built in New York city.
Large cities has a bit more to prove than small ones. Small cities could get quite illustrious without wonders while bigger cities would need wonders more.

So it's all the same thing anyhow as what we have. We're trying to model the same thing. It's just that you were trying to shift the benefits away from economic, when that's the whole point of the tourism industry is to bring money in from elsewhere to be spent here. Illustriousness is just a factor that draws in tourists is all, thus the reason that wonders provide tourism value, and you're saying that even with such a switch in the moniker, you'd try to keep that, so we're back to there being no difference.

Also, I think there's a tag that does that already.

If the grand idea here is to include GP pts to levels of 'tourism/illustriousness' because the region attracts more thoughtful people, we can certainly add some GP pts to levels of tourism with the same justification as we would illustriousness. My point is it's the same thing.

However, it's harder to understand why a Motel would add to the illustriousness of a city.

 

[Toffer90]

Wasn't the initial problem that if we let the base property autobuilds start from turn 0, then they bring in too much money too early in the game?
My perspective on it was mostly a suggestion for how they would not need to bring in money at all, and that new content should be introduced to have a tighter control on when, how and what is is gained from that property based on what base autobuild the city has.
Sure it could still be called Tourism, but let's remove the money gained from the buildings that are it's base autobuilds, that was my main suggestion.

It's just that you were trying to shift the benefits away from economic, when that's the whole point of the tourism industry is to bring money in from elsewhere to be spent here.

To me it makes sense to have one property that can represent tourism, immigration, trade, and pilgrimage features all at once.

However, it's harder to understand why a Motel would add to the illustriousness of a city.

And it shouldn't, a motel isn't much of a reason in and of itself to attract travelers much. You wouldn't build a motel in a place no one wants to visit, it isn't economically viable. However, the motel could have improved output due to the illustriousness of the city.
Sports stadiums, monasteries, certain N/W wonders, Luxury hotel, national park, city park, Ski resorts, Zoo, (new improvements?), museums, monument/obelisk, etc. could imo provide illustriousness.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Here is what I'm working on in the 1st levels of Tourism.
1st property entry level.

</PropertyManipulators>
           <PropertyBuildings>
               <PropertyBuilding>
                       <BuildingType>BUILDING_TOURISM_PLUS1</BuildingType>
                       <iMinValue>100</iMinValue>
                       <iMaxValue>100000</iMaxValue>
                   </PropertyBuilding>

I have increased the Level from 10 to 100. All other levels follow suit atm with (these are still subject to more changes);
level 2 = 350
level 3 = 600
level 4 = 1000
level 5 = 1500
level 6 = 2000
level 7 = 3000
level 8 = 5000
level 9=7500
level 10 still the same at = 10,000


Now the scale back to the buildings themselves with the 1st Building;

<!-- Tourism (Level 1) -->
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_TOURISM_PLUS1</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_TOURISM_PLUS1</Type>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_TOURISM_PLUS1</Description>
           <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_TOURISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
           <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_TOURISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
           <Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
           <!-- Graphical and interface -->
           <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_TOURISM</ArtDefineTag>
           <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
           <fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
           <!-- Prerequisites -->
           <PrereqTech>TECH_CLASSICAL_LIFESTYLE</PrereqTech>
           <!-- Construction cost -->
           <iCost>-1</iCost>
           <!-- Main effects -->
           <iHappiness>1</iHappiness>
           <CommerceChanges>
               <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
           </CommerceChanges>
           <!-- Special properties -->
           <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
           <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
           <!-- Properties diffusion -->
           <PropertyManipulators>
               <PropertySource>
                   <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                   <PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
                   <iAmountPerTurn>1</iAmountPerTurn>
               </PropertySource>
               <PropertySource>
                   <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                   <PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
                   <iAmountPerTurn>1</iAmountPerTurn>
               </PropertySource>
               <PropertySource>
                   <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                   <PropertyType>PROPERTY_AIR_POLLUTION</PropertyType>
                   <iAmountPerTurn>0</iAmountPerTurn>
               </PropertySource>
               <PropertySource>
                   <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                   <PropertyType>PROPERTY_WATER_POLLUTION</PropertyType>
                   <iAmountPerTurn>0</iAmountPerTurn>
               </PropertySource>
           </PropertyManipulators>
       </BuildingInfo>
       <BuildingInfo>

I have already lowered these Property values in a previous commit to start at 2 in all categories. But upon further review of save game progressions, I have dropped them even more to 1, 1, 0, 0 as seen above. By the time you get to level 10 the values are the same as what is in the game now; 6, 5, 5, 5. Which is lower than before my 1st adjustments were ever made.

All Commerce values have been dropped from 10 to 1 To Start with. Since these are Cumulative as T-brd has posted. By the time you get to Tourism level 3 the cumulative effects will have added a total of 5% to the Commmerce values used. Here is the values for level 10:

<iHappiness>3</iHappiness>
           <CommerceChanges>
               <iCommerce>6</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>7</iCommerce>
           </CommerceChanges>

With Culture achieving a slightly higher Cumulative % than Gold.

I also slowly increased from 1 on level 1 building to level 10 getting 3. This may need to be increased.

I'm posting these for the Team to have a chance to comment on before I commit them.

EDIT: Another item to consider, All Tourism Buildings come into play when Classical Lifestyle is researched, it is the Prereqtech. And as pointed out in one of our MP games you can have a Tourism Balance in excess of 500+ points by that time. Which in turn will automatically give you, under the current system, the 1st 6 Tourism Bldgs and all 6 bldgs cumulative effects in all areas (good and bad). My new entry levels will reduce this huge jump to only getting 2 or 3 levels with the new lower cumulative totals IF Classical Lifestyles Stays the PrereqTech for all Tourism Bldgs. It is my desire to change the PrereqTech as the levels advance.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you're going to spread the prereq techs across the tech tree, as advised, then you shouldn't be so restrictive with the commerce % on the later levels.

I've lived in numerous places, including my current home city, where easily more than 50% of the economy comes from the money coming in from out of town visitors. 5% seems... too weak. I'd prefer to think that the bases are too high if the modifiers here are delivering too much.

Besides, how many cities are getting really high tourism? That's one thing I've been wondering here...

I'm not going to do anything here to make any demands. I know you're trying to get things into a form of balance first and foremost so I can honor the intent of such dramatic reductions in benefits, but I'm hoping that eventually, we can re-evaluate the impact later, after we've looked at ways to rework some of the buildings providing base income. In Real World should = Game World as much as possible theory, a TON of income should be attributable to tourism in cities that really bring in the visitors. Many cities I've lived in wouldn't even HAVE an economy at all if there weren't people to serve because they visit. The places clear out during those times of the year that the visitors aren't present. (Not Vegas of course... they get visitors all year round.)


@Toffer: Ok, I can see some good arguments (though I don't think the gold balance should be targeting tourism too hard for reduction as stated just now) for the Illustriousness shift, with perhaps a static property like flammability to represent tourism infrastructure which would present autobuildings that would establish limits to the tourism benefits that illustriousness CAN bring (and could also be directly reduced to help cities that are being too harmed by tourism rather than helped.)

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you're going to spread the prereq techs across the tech tree, as advised, then you shouldn't be so restrictive with the commerce % on the later levels.

The IF is the condition of course. But without any PreregTech change it should start this restrictive. Then on the 2nd pass after more data gained adjustment more towards the mean.

Besides, how many cities are getting really high tourism? That's one thing I've been wondering here...

And so have I. By SO's game time frame and world status it's in (basically Global warming and other disasters are in full swing world wide), it's really in the "toilet". So finding where it peaked and how high the peaks are is part of the process. Saved games from the players are a big source for this info.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The IF is the condition of course. But without any PreregTech change it should start this restrictive. Then on the 2nd pass after more data gained adjustment more towards the mean.

I wouldn't think this Prereq Tech establishment should be much of an 'if' matter. This is really something I think we should do because it proved necessary in education and I think the same factors show it to be just as necessary here. Learning from experiences, y'know? This is one of the reasons FOR gateway techs... so that one doesn't have to pull their hair out trying to find JUST the right techs, at least at first. It helps to have prereq tech landing points so as to space some things out by era.

Of course, we don't have all of those gateway techs in place yet so it's not something so easily done past modern at the moment. I know we're not arguing here at all and I'm actually really happy about that

And so have I. By SO's game time frame and world status it's in (basically Global warming and other disasters are in full swing world wide), it's really in the "toilet". So finding where it peaked and how high the peaks are is part of the process. Saved games from the players are a big source for this info.

Yeah, it's a little hard to get an honest gauge on some things with that game.

 

[Toffer90]

Also, I think there's a tag that does that already.

Nope, buildings cannot change the commerce of other buildings.

While on the topic of building tags.
What's the difference between the <BonusCommercePercentChange> (unused as of yet in C2C) and the <BonusCommerceModifiers> (Used a lot).
I'm thinking, since C2C doesn't have a <BonusCommerceChange> building tag, that <BonusCommercePercentChange> should really have been a <BonusCommerceChange> tag.

Also what do you think about the tag suggestion I made regarding obsoleting buildings?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have spent the whole morning going thru save games that range from Preh Era to Medieval Era checking Tourism levels in every city. (have looked at player save games for later eras during this past week)

Therefore:
1. I will Not be changing the 1st 6 entry levels as I proposed. I will be lowering the #7 thru 10 entry levels as the current system will Never reach 2000 tourism level, let alone 10,000.
2. I will not be changing the Commerce values as proposed. All will be put back to 10%
3. I Will change the PrereqTech entry for all Tourism Buildings from Classical Lifestyle. Tribalism will be the PrereqTech for level 1. Sed Life will be for 2 and 3. 4 and 5 will Stay at Class Lifestyle. The rest will be spaced further up the tech tree.
4. The current Property levels for Crime, Disease, Air and Water Pollution will remain as they currently are.
EDIT:
5. Happiness will increase by 1 for each 3 levels attained with Level 10 getting 4 .
6. Decay rate reduced to 3 from 4

Conclusion: Tourism is so Unfinished that it is more "broken" than I 1st thought. Even the decay rate is too high at a 4 setting. And you will only have a handfull of cities in Any empire that will even have a positive Tourism balance. The vast majority will have none or negative. Main reason, if the city does not have at least 1 Wonder (whether National or World) it will only have negative or 0 tourism. And not every NW, WW, or Religious Holy Site even gives any Tourism. It is really hit and miss, with more miss. Very very incomplete system, basically a bare bones one.

 

[Toffer90]

Sounds reasonable.

One thing that's a bit unclear though.

2. I will not be changing the Commerce values as proposed. All will be put back to 10%

You say "put back" but they were set to +10 before, will you be changing it to percentage boost instead?
Then they should perhaps be set to +5% each, instead of 10%, and end up close to +50% at level 10 tourism; or did you mean 1 % per step, up to 10% total?

 

[JosEPh_II]

<CommerceChanges>
<iCommerce>10</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>10</iCommerce>
</CommerceChanges>

Staying at this right now.

Although the idea of making it a percentage did cross my mind. But since they are city specific and not empire wide have not done any further manipulations to see which would be better.

In 1 game I checked, in the Med Era, my own empire had 26 cities. My Capital had a tourism level of 416. 6 more cities had 0 tourism and the rest were all negative, from a -2 to a -261. Rather sad and pathetic overall results. So the Capital would be getting 50 and 50 . No other city would get anything. Plus I had founded 3 religions and they were not all in the Capital either. So the Holy Sites were either being canceled by the decay Or the Religions Holy Site gave no Tourism vlaue at all.

The biggest actual change was reducing the Property Decay from 4 to 3.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Nope, buildings cannot change the commerce of other buildings.

I guess it's only wonder level stuff, where it can only do so on a national basis, a la the mound wonders that increase the commerce levels of the tumulus.

What's the difference between the <BonusCommercePercentChange> (unused as of yet in C2C) and the <BonusCommerceModifiers>

Whoever did this tag, and who knows... it might've been me before I really understood some things, (though I don't recall doing anything with this tag except trying to make heads or tails of it for a previous audit), really did it in a strange way. It's an awkward thing but it does kind of make sense... not sure it's very efficient the way it's programmed. Anyhow, it looks like it could probably work as a BonusCommerceChange tag, as you suggested. Where it plugs in is a little ambiguous by naming as to what is being tallied up but I'm thinking it must be the base commerce amount the city is producing.

Also what do you think about the tag suggestion I made regarding obsoleting buildings?

I think I'm a long ways away from being able to work on building tags at the moment. I still haven't gotten word back from alberts2 on that last issue. And it seems I'm making very slow progress through the building recosting effort.

I would urge you to keep a list of such tag suggestions so we can bring them all back up when I get the bandwidth to include all these concepts to open up a major building stat restructuring project.

to Medieval Era

I will be lowering the #7 thru 10 entry levels as the current system will Never reach 2000 tourism level, let alone 10,000.

I'm sure the last levels weren't meant to be hit by Medieval Era and only later game stuff would be capable of driving the tourism levels that high.

3. I Will change the PrereqTech entry for all Tourism Buildings from Classical Lifestyle. Tribalism will be the PrereqTech for level 1. Sed Life will be for 2 and 3. 4 and 5 will Stay at Class Lifestyle. The rest will be spaced further up the tech tree.

It was pretty functional to spread out the levels of Education one level per era. Would that not simplify the approach to tourism as well?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm sure the last levels weren't meant to be hit by Medieval Era and only later game stuff would be capable of driving the tourism levels that high.

What "later game stuff"? Have not really found any yet. And were did you get the later levels end at Medieval? Right now since my commit the last Tourism Level (10) activates at Industrialism Tech. And since none of them Obsolete why wait till an even later Era than that?

 

[Thunderbrd]

There again, we haven't added nearly enough wonders to the late game to equate to the wonders of the middle and early game stages. It just has never been time to put that much effort into the later stages when it's so difficult to even get a game to that point. So there's just not as much to create the larger amounts of tourism that will eventually be seen in the later game.

I didn't get that the later levels end at medieval, just saying that since you stopped the evaluation there, it would be reasonable to expect that the later game should go far beyond the imaginable if you're stopping your analysis at medieval.