Mesix
Obergruppenführer
MrUnderhill said:
I like this idea.
Tower of Mastery Victory
- Thread starter MrUnderhill
- Start date
I like this idea.
Here is my take on the Tower of Mastery option.
It takes way, way too long to build. I know its been said already, but its worth repeating. I've taken the trouble to build the Tower of Mastery in four or five games. Typical build times are over a hundred turns--I play at epic speed. In all of these ToM wins, I finished the Tower with fewer than 15 turns to go before the game's end.
What I've found is that I end up finishing this build out of sheer stubborness. Because the truth is that in each of my ToM games, I could have accomplished a military victory well before the ToM was complete. Is this observation unusual? There was no need for the ToM victory. But I go for it anyway, and my fun factor drops as I manage my empire and watch the AI fumble about for a hundred turns or so.
Incidentally, this is observation is similar to the production of the more powerful rituals. They take so long to build that by the time they are near completion, I've already won a military victory.
For just this reason, not since my first two games (FFH v1) have I even bothered with the rituals. They just take too long! They look like a heck of a lot of fun, and I want to build them, but I can't justify the ~100 turns.
My opening suggestion is simple enough: cut their build time by 50-75%. Give me a reason to build them!
It takes way, way too long to build. I know its been said already, but its worth repeating. I've taken the trouble to build the Tower of Mastery in four or five games. Typical build times are over a hundred turns--I play at epic speed. In all of these ToM wins, I finished the Tower with fewer than 15 turns to go before the game's end.
What I've found is that I end up finishing this build out of sheer stubborness. Because the truth is that in each of my ToM games, I could have accomplished a military victory well before the ToM was complete. Is this observation unusual? There was no need for the ToM victory. But I go for it anyway, and my fun factor drops as I manage my empire and watch the AI fumble about for a hundred turns or so.
Incidentally, this is observation is similar to the production of the more powerful rituals. They take so long to build that by the time they are near completion, I've already won a military victory.
For just this reason, not since my first two games (FFH v1) have I even bothered with the rituals. They just take too long! They look like a heck of a lot of fun, and I want to build them, but I can't justify the ~100 turns.
My opening suggestion is simple enough: cut their build time by 50-75%. Give me a reason to build them!
MrUnderhill
Civ-loving Hobbit
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2005
- Messages
- 655
I agree with Jay Ray. I was browsing through the 'pedia earlier and IIRC 
10'000 (the average cost of 1 ritual) is about 10 times that of a mid-game wonder. That's a little too much punishment since you can't rush them with Great Engineers (not that they'd do much good, anyway) and pop-rushing is limited to only 2 religions, so there's very little you can do to fix the issue.
I'll whip out my XML Marker tomorrow and see what happens when you cut them back to5'000. Hopefully the AI doesn't get the bright idea to apocolypse my hide. 
10'000 (the average cost of 1 ritual) is about 10 times that of a mid-game wonder. That's a little too much punishment since you can't rush them with Great Engineers (not that they'd do much good, anyway) and pop-rushing is limited to only 2 religions, so there's very little you can do to fix the issue. I'll whip out my XML Marker tomorrow and see what happens when you cut them back to
5'000. Hopefully the AI doesn't get the bright idea to apocolypse my hide. >Hopefully the AI doesn't get the bright idea to apocolypse my hide.
Actually, I wouldn't mind this at all. I've never seen the AI build a ritual. Well, once a long time ago I think some civ built Genesis. But I've never been hit by any of the dangerous rituals.
If the build time for the rituals were drastically reduced, perhaps the AI might complete them?
As they are, the rituals are missing a major component--urgency. If you know your enemy is 15 turns from completing the Avatar of Wrath, you must--MUST I say--redirect all your efforts into somehow preventing its completion. That never happens.
And on the other hand, if you are trying to build it yourself it takes so long to build that urgency never even enters the equation. To the contrary. Any urgent matters will either be solved through other means, or you've lost the game long before your ritual is complete. The only time a major ritual is remotely feasible is precisely when there is nothing urgent that needs attending.
I like a lot of the ideas in this thread, especially those that:
a) reduce the build time and requirements of the ToM
b) turn them into world rather than national wonders. Capturable wonders add urgency.
Actually, I wouldn't mind this at all. I've never seen the AI build a ritual. Well, once a long time ago I think some civ built Genesis. But I've never been hit by any of the dangerous rituals.
If the build time for the rituals were drastically reduced, perhaps the AI might complete them?
As they are, the rituals are missing a major component--urgency. If you know your enemy is 15 turns from completing the Avatar of Wrath, you must--MUST I say--redirect all your efforts into somehow preventing its completion. That never happens.
And on the other hand, if you are trying to build it yourself it takes so long to build that urgency never even enters the equation. To the contrary. Any urgent matters will either be solved through other means, or you've lost the game long before your ritual is complete. The only time a major ritual is remotely feasible is precisely when there is nothing urgent that needs attending.
I like a lot of the ideas in this thread, especially those that:
a) reduce the build time and requirements of the ToM
b) turn them into world rather than national wonders. Capturable wonders add urgency.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
As I understand it, armageddon is going to be the focus of the fire phase, meaning that we might see some changes in how this all works. Still, I must say that I've never completed a ritual, nor have I seen the AI complete a ritual.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
I saw them complete apoacalypse, albeit several version ago. I was uite annoyed that I lost my good units, kept reloading an auto save to try to keep them, lol.
With the AI less efficient at keeping and upgrading good units, I suppose that ritual would almost always benefit them, if they then built more troops.
With the AI less efficient at keeping and upgrading good units, I suppose that ritual would almost always benefit them, if they then built more troops.
Well, at least that is once.
I'm sure there are others that have also seen the AI build a ritual. But I'd caution against using those scattered and rare examples as proof of concept.
So if both the AI and human players almost never build rituals or the ToM, its worth asking why. I think for the AI, these big builds simply aren't weighted. And for both humans and the AI, on the off chance that we start to build one, they take too long. Much too long. The game is already won or lost by the time they are nearing completion.
Anyway, like Chand, I expect the team knows about this and will take it into consideration in future versions.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Oh, I wasn't offering my annecdote as proof of anything other than my willingness to cheat 
. I'm certainly of the camp that rituals and the like should be cheaper. Heck, if I've started the ToM and feel safe, I'll probably start another game rather than finish it (although it can be bought a few turns early if you set your slider all the way to gold).
Now, if other civs actively tried to destroy you once you started the ToM, then it'd be a different matter. But as is it is just a test of patience once you get to that point. (Which I have, but would rather spend elsewhere!)
One or the other of these ideas (or something else to mitigate) might well see light in fire. Anyway, I'll bring it up
. I'm certainly of the camp that rituals and the like should be cheaper. Heck, if I've started the ToM and feel safe, I'll probably start another game rather than finish it (although it can be bought a few turns early if you set your slider all the way to gold). Now, if other civs actively tried to destroy you once you started the ToM, then it'd be a different matter. But as is it is just a test of patience once you get to that point. (Which I have, but would rather spend elsewhere!)
One or the other of these ideas (or something else to mitigate) might well see light in fire. Anyway, I'll bring it up
MrUnderhill
Civ-loving Hobbit
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2005
- Messages
- 655
You mean like a little warning message ("Nikis-Knight is building the Tower of Mastery!") and a negative diplomacy modifierNikis-Knight said:
(-6 "You're getting too close to winning!")?
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Exactly. Unlike the space race, it's extremely unlikely that two player could even start the ToM, let alone try to beat someone to it once they started. Perhaps it should state in the Pedia that the Civ who builds it will be able to mind control any person on the planet, or control all magic, or some other justification for winning and even your friends having cause to try to stop you.
Silverkiss
NekoChan
-6 "You are experimenting with energies that are best left alone" bah ;D
Avahz Darkwood
Emperor
Apoacalypse should cause all civs (atleast good and neutral) to declare war on you and change your civ to evil if it is not already.
Nikis-Knight said:
This is usually what I do when I go for the ToM victory. The tower is very expensive (I think all of them are actually).
I also wish that the towers (all of them) weren't national wonders. With those five towers plus bazaar of mammon, forbidden palace, and maybe another one?, I always have trouble having my strongest (read most production) city build the last tower. Is there a reason that at least the four smaller towers can't be considered the same kind of thing as the spaceship parts in vanilla? Just to save the trouble of having only two national wonders max in a city?
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Oh, that was changed a while back, Biff. Cities can now have as many national wonders as you want. Now national just means everyone can build one.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Like building faster when you have a certain type of mana? Yes, that is in the game, I believe.
I really like BCalchet's suggestion, it means that the towers complement your strategy rather than being one all of their own. The more I read this thread the more I think of Legacy of Kain and the pillars of Nozgoth with their guardians, they were (see if I can do it off the top of my head...):
Pillar of...
And one other, can't remember what (too lazy to google). Maybe a solution is to make the towers cheaper but one for each mana type and thereby make the effects specific (that way you could give them benefits that are useful in their own right thereby incentivising the towers AND help make the TOM victory potentially attractive). I agree that having them as world wonders makes things a lot more interesting but you'd DEFINITELY need a good info screen to help you with this. I still can't believe Civ generally has no facility to let you see which city has which wonder beyond the top 5, given the mana attached to some of them this becomes even more iportant!
God I love this mod...
Pillar of...
- States
- Dimension
- Nature
- Conflict
- Death
- Mind
- Time
- Balance
And one other, can't remember what (too lazy to google). Maybe a solution is to make the towers cheaper but one for each mana type and thereby make the effects specific (that way you could give them benefits that are useful in their own right thereby incentivising the towers AND help make the TOM victory potentially attractive). I agree that having them as world wonders makes things a lot more interesting but you'd DEFINITELY need a good info screen to help you with this. I still can't believe Civ generally has no facility to let you see which city has which wonder beyond the top 5, given the mana attached to some of them this becomes even more iportant!
God I love this mod...
onedreamer
Dragon
Civkid1991 said:
why would you try to get it before the AI if they are all national wonders ? They aren't so long to make except the Tower of Mastery itself, which grants you the victory so I think its effect is quite helpful in making you the best civ. All others towers are as cool as all other wonders.
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