TR02 - Losers move up to Emporer
- Thread starter Tubby Rower
- Start date
eldar
ChiefTank
Hmm, yeah, there's no save...
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Here's the save. http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR02_AK_250_AD.SAV
Loaded the save
Looking good... very good... Great job Admiral and of course Minite Man and previous players
Agree on all the trading Admiral did.
We have 2 choices here:
1. Bump sci. slider to 90% and since we have a lot of cash (1371Gold) run negative research (-188GPT) but mettalurgy in only 6turns.... We won't run out of money plus more marketplaces are coming our way. And also this will help us to get Military Traditions or be very close possibly still while we are in Golden Age. Once mettalurgy is researched trade it around for upper brunch of technologies. I am sure AIs are past education at this moment. (not that we need it but just in case if we decide to go spaceship victory or something like that)
2. Upgrade as many of our 38 horses as we can and roll over Egypt now to capture our 5th luxury and HG. We will have to wait 5 turns though.
Both solutions are almost equally good, but how does the team feel?
Suggestions please it will greatly affect Eldar's play style.
and I totally trust in his executive decisions. The last one he made turned out just fine despite my silly critisism.
There is really 3rd solution. Using max. negative research as in paragraph 1 and rolling over egypt as in paragraph 2 but using horses. SHould work just fine but a little slower. Egypt doesn't have iron, they don' teven have longbows, so horses will also be their strongest unit.
I really want us to get 5th luxury before next big war against Celts or Babylon. 5th luxury allows to run on 0 luxury tax in pop 12city with market built.
EDIT:
2 suggestions on changing orders:
Shnapsiville -> market or library
Giza -> worker or court
Keep Rome building knights during GA... one knight each 3 turns is a great production rate and even if the rest of the cities will be building something else this will let our army to grow stronger. As soon as core cities finilize ducts/markets/libraries start building military there too.
MORE EDITS! Actually this is more important IMHO.
Palmyra does not need court. This is 1st ring city. Switch to market.
Switch Lutetia to market
and ceasarea from barracks to market.
We have enough military build capable core cities. All cities of second ring should be prioritized on economy generating builds as a priority before barracks.
The way i see it we should use our GA to build most expensive stuff to help us generate same amount of money and research after GAs expire as during it. It looks like we have perfectly timed GA with the perfectly sized empire thanks to two previous players and the way they shredded Russian forces.
Looking good... very good... Great job Admiral and of course Minite Man and previous players
Agree on all the trading Admiral did.
We have 2 choices here:
1. Bump sci. slider to 90% and since we have a lot of cash (1371Gold) run negative research (-188GPT) but mettalurgy in only 6turns.... We won't run out of money plus more marketplaces are coming our way. And also this will help us to get Military Traditions or be very close possibly still while we are in Golden Age. Once mettalurgy is researched trade it around for upper brunch of technologies. I am sure AIs are past education at this moment. (not that we need it but just in case if we decide to go spaceship victory or something like that)
2. Upgrade as many of our 38 horses as we can and roll over Egypt now to capture our 5th luxury and HG. We will have to wait 5 turns though.
Both solutions are almost equally good, but how does the team feel?
Suggestions please it will greatly affect Eldar's play style.
and I totally trust in his executive decisions. The last one he made turned out just fine despite my silly critisism.
There is really 3rd solution. Using max. negative research as in paragraph 1 and rolling over egypt as in paragraph 2 but using horses. SHould work just fine but a little slower. Egypt doesn't have iron, they don' teven have longbows, so horses will also be their strongest unit.
I really want us to get 5th luxury before next big war against Celts or Babylon. 5th luxury allows to run on 0 luxury tax in pop 12city with market built.
EDIT:
2 suggestions on changing orders:
Shnapsiville -> market or library
Giza -> worker or court
Keep Rome building knights during GA... one knight each 3 turns is a great production rate and even if the rest of the cities will be building something else this will let our army to grow stronger. As soon as core cities finilize ducts/markets/libraries start building military there too.
MORE EDITS! Actually this is more important IMHO.
Palmyra does not need court. This is 1st ring city. Switch to market.
Switch Lutetia to market
and ceasarea from barracks to market.
We have enough military build capable core cities. All cities of second ring should be prioritized on economy generating builds as a priority before barracks.
The way i see it we should use our GA to build most expensive stuff to help us generate same amount of money and research after GAs expire as during it. It looks like we have perfectly timed GA with the perfectly sized empire thanks to two previous players and the way they shredded Russian forces.
I like a library in Rome first -- it can build it in 3 turns, which equals one knight. I'd rather have the lib than the knight, since...
I vote for #3. We can only afford to upgrade about 10 horses to knights. This way we can kill off some horses to make room in our economy for better units. We'll have a trickle of knights as we fight Egypt, and then after that, we can turn our knights toward the ironless Celts, as cavalry comes online...I think the timing is pretty good.
I vote for #3. We can only afford to upgrade about 10 horses to knights. This way we can kill off some horses to make room in our economy for better units. We'll have a trickle of knights as we fight Egypt, and then after that, we can turn our knights toward the ironless Celts, as cavalry comes online...I think the timing is pretty good.
Mach said:
I thought about that two... But right now we generate good amount of research already and rome will build library fast even after GAs are expired.
I suggest build 2 or 3 knights in Rome before library anyways. even handfull number of knights will make a big difference fighting egypt after our trade deal expire in 5 turns.
We actually need those 5 turns to move forces to egypt border..
Be carefull with Rostov, might want to move more troops there ...
Doesn't make sence to keep troops outside of rostov - if it flips we can' take it back while having peace deal with russia... so may be better to risk and put many units in that city and once resistanse is subdued rush a settler while starving.
Minute Man
Prince
Taking over Egypt definitely seems worthwhile. Not sure whether we should upgrade our forces or not, though. On the one hand, there's not much point in burning all our cash to get to MT faster and then not be able to afford any upgrades. On the other hand, as Mach said, we can't even upgrade more than a portion of our forces now. I'd probably go ahead and start upgrading, but I don't have strong feelings either way.
On the library in Rome: as much as I like libraries, I'm not sure we need it right now. It's not going to make much difference in how fast we get to MT, and once we're there I presume we're going to turn down research for a while and upgrade all our troops. We can build it later if we think we're going to need to do more research.
On the library in Rome: as much as I like libraries, I'm not sure we need it right now. It's not going to make much difference in how fast we get to MT, and once we're there I presume we're going to turn down research for a while and upgrade all our troops. We can build it later if we think we're going to need to do more research.
Minute Man said:
Actually it will make a huge difference.
We get MT -> stop research->cash upgrade and cash rush cavs.
We are going to sweep entire pangea in no time.
Knights might not be as good since AIs know Gunpowder and knights are not at good odds against muskets.
Cavalry has one extra movement point which make huge difference...
I personally would love to get MT ASAP.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
One of my SG intentions in all games is too leave the next player with options if possible (probably why I don't handle OCC well). Judging by the discussion above, I left lots of options open.
Feel very strongly that Rome doesn't need a library during the GA.
like the idea of taking out Cleo before Brennus. With lux #5, we're more able to tolerate a 20 turn dogpile on Brennus. More later.
personally, I wouldn't upgrade the horses. Questionable if I would upgrade the knights. Need to be flexible depending on what trades are out there. In the long run tis cheaper to build than upgrade. If eldar let's my builds complete, we're gonna be able to crank cav production like you wouldn't believe. The more I think about it, the more I think we take on Cleo with knights and horses.
@ eldar - I went leader fishing as much as I could and had no luck, you're due. If we get MGL save it for the 1st Cavalry army.
Don't neglect the dot maps. we can pull in gems with judicious city placement and rushing in the NW. That would be lux 6 IIRC - not sure which one cleo has. NW dotmap has priority over NE dotmap.
Long term thoughts - for after Cleo and Brennus. Consider the potential for gifting Hammi and Cathy into the IA. Too to tell if it's viable, but something to thunk on.
@ MM - don't get too locked into the slider. Where we are now, it's easy to drop research to max awhile and then have the cash back in 5 turns or so.
The second ring cities were building rax to see how far we got before russian winter set in. Per above, new next player could change them. In fact all should keep in mind that lots of my builds are placeholders or prebuilds and the next player should change them based on the situation.
@ eldar - go get us some rifles so I can ramble on about cops and railnets.
Feel very strongly that Rome doesn't need a library during the GA.
like the idea of taking out Cleo before Brennus. With lux #5, we're more able to tolerate a 20 turn dogpile on Brennus. More later.
personally, I wouldn't upgrade the horses. Questionable if I would upgrade the knights. Need to be flexible depending on what trades are out there. In the long run tis cheaper to build than upgrade. If eldar let's my builds complete, we're gonna be able to crank cav production like you wouldn't believe. The more I think about it, the more I think we take on Cleo with knights and horses.
@ eldar - I went leader fishing as much as I could and had no luck, you're due. If we get MGL save it for the 1st Cavalry army.
Don't neglect the dot maps. we can pull in gems with judicious city placement and rushing in the NW. That would be lux 6 IIRC - not sure which one cleo has. NW dotmap has priority over NE dotmap.
Long term thoughts - for after Cleo and Brennus. Consider the potential for gifting Hammi and Cathy into the IA. Too to tell if it's viable, but something to thunk on.
@ MM - don't get too locked into the slider. Where we are now, it's easy to drop research to max awhile and then have the cash back in 5 turns or so.
yeah, I prewed the scrooch on that one. I didn't wanna lose a SoD there, but didn't wanna leave it alone.
The second ring cities were building rax to see how far we got before russian winter set in. Per above, new next player could change them. In fact all should keep in mind that lots of my builds are placeholders or prebuilds and the next player should change them based on the situation.
@ eldar - go get us some rifles so I can ramble on about cops and railnets.
eldar
ChiefTank
Maybe we do need to practice building a railnet?
I'll play it tomorrow - and hopefully the RNG luck I had in my COTM10 practice run will rub off on us, managed 8 MGLs in that
I'll play it tomorrow - and hopefully the RNG luck I had in my COTM10 practice run will rub off on us, managed 8 MGLs in that
eldar said:Maybe we do need to practice building a railnet?
I'll play it tomorrow - and hopefully the RNG luck I had in my COTM10 practice run will rub off on us, managed 8 MGLs in that
Have fun... Get us some MLGs of Cleo and we will fill empty armies later with cavs as Admiral suggested.
This game is won for all practical purposes and it is all about how much we are going to milk it...
If you ask me i would stop research after MT and simply roll over AIs killing them all and burning their land. We will probably even have a winning date similar to the one we had on monarch game.
we can start another game on DG level and then we will have to have those rails, infantry, tanks and maybe even modern stuff.
Or we can simply milk this game and keep going on in IA. But that will mean we will play just with ourselves and have 4 turn research rates while the rest of AIs will be dragging way behind in techs unless we will leave them alone and gift them techs.
That way we can try diplo or space victory. (I hope nobody is planning to go for histographic win here)...
So this is a good time to decide what type of victory we are after!!!!
The decision on victory type will alter our decision on whether we should continue research after MT.
eldar
ChiefTank
Victory type: well, I'm assuming that, for training purposes, we're all pretty much capable of researching and building stuff, timing pre-builds, timing ToE build, etc. It's the getting to the domination limit ASAP to maximize score bit that we need the practice/know-how on.
I'd be quite happy to stop at domination.
I'd be quite happy to stop at domination.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Let's go domination and then start a DG
eldar
ChiefTank
Playing now. Will go with the Horses-only option vs. Egypt, so I'll start moving troops thataway.
eldar
ChiefTank
Er, okay, if there's anyone watching (even a knowledgeable lurker would be handy right now!!), a dilemma popped up on the first inter-turn.
F4 clearly showed 5 turns left of the peace deal with Egypt. Now, I know I'd parked a few Horses right by her border, but... IT, she dials us up and asks for a renewal of the peace treaty! I'm guessing that saying 'No' will trash our rep. Saying 'Yes', of course, locks us into another 20 turns. What I want to know is, can I safely say 'No' to her, and be back at war before the deal expires? I'm guessing not....
F4 clearly showed 5 turns left of the peace deal with Egypt. Now, I know I'd parked a few Horses right by her border, but... IT, she dials us up and asks for a renewal of the peace treaty! I'm guessing that saying 'No' will trash our rep. Saying 'Yes', of course, locks us into another 20 turns. What I want to know is, can I safely say 'No' to her, and be back at war before the deal expires? I'm guessing not....
eldar
ChiefTank
In the end, I took peace and played, well, peacably for 10 turns, building up our infra and military. Got some sweet gpt deals for Metallurgy Brennus is still up at least Astronomy, though.
Turn log:
0 250 Schnapps switched to Lib - it's only Size 1, not growing quickly, so a Market won't be needed/effective there for a bit. Giza gets a Worker - as someone recently put it so effetively: "You don't have enough Workers. Really."
Palmyra switched to a Market. Egad, those Celts have a lot of culture! Lutetia switched to Market. Caesarea also switched to Market. According to MapStat, we have some very high flip risks - Palmyra especially. Almost all to the Celts, of course. Wake some Horses and send the to the Egyptian border. Can't pull in the Krasnayorsk Gems without disturbing its prod radius but that's what Cleo's got so it's not important. Leave the garrisons around the Celtic border, a reserve more than anything else. Sci up to 90%, Metal in 6.
IT: Ouch! Cleo comes early and offers a renewal of the treaty?! Would saying no break it? I reluctantly accept the deal. In 20 turns' time, we'll be more than well equipped to splat her from existence in a couple of turns. It can wait. We finally get to build our Palace up a bit (some paving, and a bit of a small tower so far...). Cleo also got Invention IT
So we'd have faced LBs no matter what.
1 260 Hire a taxman in Antium to prevent a riot - still gets the Market in 4, and it's not worth the extra lux tax for 1 citizen in 1 city.
IT: Veii Market->Rax. Might as well. Brundisium Market->Knight.
2 270 Sci can come down a notch. Keep Lux as it is to save money, though.
IT: Rome Knight->Knight. Hispalis Aqua->Market. Giza Worker->Court. Syracuse Aqua->Market. Jerusalem Settler->Court.
3 280 Dmandium founded.
IT: Veii Rax->Knight. Rostov Worker->Library. Nea Market->Library (can get some squares back off Eboracum that way, with no additional flip risk as they're all outside Eboracum's 21).
4 290 Yawn.
IT: Hammi boots our Warrior (no surprises ). Moscodinium Rax->Library. Antium Market->Knight. Pompeii Market->Knight. Ravenna Market->Worker. It's not growing, we need to chop the Forests and get it going now. Celts are building Copernicus!
5 300 Sci right down to 60% for the final turn of Metallurgy.
IT: Metallurgy->MT. Rome Knight->Knight. St Petersburg Rax->Knight. Ravenna Worker->Knight.
6 310 Time to sell Metallurgy around. Brennus give us 81gpt+17g+Theology for it. I like, so I take. Hammi gives us 7gpt+100g+Education. Another nice deal. Brennus is the only one with Astronomy. I'm not 100% I could've used Metallurgy to prise it out of his fingers, but I wouldn't have got 81gpt, that's for sure. I'd rather have the cash, thanks - we'll get MT that much quicker that way. Back to the deals... Aztecs, 25gpt+8g. And that concludes the dealing with those who have anything worthwhile to offer us. Antium switched to a Courthouse. With the taxman, we're at -101gpt; without, working the Fish
, we're at -103. There's a lot of corruption in that there town. I keep using the Fish, though, 'cos I prefer the growth. MT in 6 @ -103, which is more than we have right now but hopefully with more Markets/Libs coming online, it'll come down some.
IT: Brundisium Knight->Knight. Nicomedia Rax->Harbor.
7 320 Sci can already come down a notch, so we can get MT in 5 within budget.
IT: Hammi boots us again. Neapolis Lib->Knight. Pisae Market->Knight. Lutetia Market->Knight. Music Theory is available from a few opponents now.
8 330 Yawn.
IT: Rome Knight->Knight. Veii Knight->Knight.
9 340 Yawn.
IT: Hammi boots us yet again. Palmyra Market->Knight. Abydos Harbor->Rax.
10 350 Sci down another notch, MT in 2 @ -11gpt. Really annoyed about Cleo. Just look at the stack sitting on her borders, it's really more than enough! Instead I just got to build stuff. No
for the Pizzamen today Settler could probably go 1NW to fill in the culture boundaries, and still get all the BGs right off. I was aiming to go by the Game, but Kazan''s boundaries expanded first. 10 turns left on the Cleo deal. We have a choice: abandon going after her, and pile on Brennus right away, or wait. I have a plan in mind for Brennus, though, and it requires a little preparation (and a lot of Settlers...). The shape of his empire makes it a logical way of going about things, though. Bear in mind any war vs. Brennus must be total extermination, otherwise flip risks will hang around.
Obligatory picture of something - our present for Cleo, this time:
Neil.
Brennus is still up at least Astronomy, though.Turn log:
0 250 Schnapps switched to Lib - it's only Size 1, not growing quickly, so a Market won't be needed/effective there for a bit. Giza gets a Worker - as someone recently put it so effetively: "You don't have enough Workers. Really."
Palmyra switched to a Market. Egad, those Celts have a lot of culture! Lutetia switched to Market. Caesarea also switched to Market. According to MapStat, we have some very high flip risks - Palmyra especially. Almost all to the Celts, of course. Wake some Horses and send the to the Egyptian border. Can't pull in the Krasnayorsk Gems without disturbing its prod radius but that's what Cleo's got so it's not important. Leave the garrisons around the Celtic border, a reserve more than anything else. Sci up to 90%, Metal in 6.IT: Ouch! Cleo comes early and offers a renewal of the treaty?! Would saying no break it? I reluctantly accept the deal. In 20 turns' time, we'll be more than well equipped to splat her from existence in a couple of turns. It can wait. We finally get to build our Palace up a bit (some paving, and a bit of a small tower so far...). Cleo also got Invention IT
So we'd have faced LBs no matter what.1 260 Hire a taxman in Antium to prevent a riot - still gets the Market in 4, and it's not worth the extra lux tax for 1 citizen in 1 city.
IT: Veii Market->Rax. Might as well. Brundisium Market->Knight.
2 270 Sci can come down a notch. Keep Lux as it is to save money, though.
IT: Rome Knight->Knight. Hispalis Aqua->Market. Giza Worker->Court. Syracuse Aqua->Market. Jerusalem Settler->Court.
3 280 Dmandium founded.
IT: Veii Rax->Knight. Rostov Worker->Library. Nea Market->Library (can get some squares back off Eboracum that way, with no additional flip risk as they're all outside Eboracum's 21).
4 290 Yawn.
IT: Hammi boots our Warrior (no surprises ). Moscodinium Rax->Library. Antium Market->Knight. Pompeii Market->Knight. Ravenna Market->Worker. It's not growing, we need to chop the Forests and get it going now. Celts are building Copernicus!
5 300 Sci right down to 60% for the final turn of Metallurgy.
IT: Metallurgy->MT. Rome Knight->Knight. St Petersburg Rax->Knight. Ravenna Worker->Knight.
6 310 Time to sell Metallurgy around. Brennus give us 81gpt+17g+Theology for it. I like, so I take. Hammi gives us 7gpt+100g+Education. Another nice deal. Brennus is the only one with Astronomy. I'm not 100% I could've used Metallurgy to prise it out of his fingers, but I wouldn't have got 81gpt, that's for sure. I'd rather have the cash, thanks - we'll get MT that much quicker that way. Back to the deals... Aztecs, 25gpt+8g. And that concludes the dealing with those who have anything worthwhile to offer us. Antium switched to a Courthouse. With the taxman, we're at -101gpt; without, working the Fish
, we're at -103. There's a lot of corruption in that there town. I keep using the Fish, though, 'cos I prefer the growth. MT in 6 @ -103, which is more than we have right now but hopefully with more Markets/Libs coming online, it'll come down some.IT: Brundisium Knight->Knight. Nicomedia Rax->Harbor.
7 320 Sci can already come down a notch, so we can get MT in 5 within budget.
IT: Hammi boots us again. Neapolis Lib->Knight. Pisae Market->Knight. Lutetia Market->Knight. Music Theory is available from a few opponents now.
8 330 Yawn.
IT: Rome Knight->Knight. Veii Knight->Knight.
9 340 Yawn.
IT: Hammi boots us yet again. Palmyra Market->Knight. Abydos Harbor->Rax.
10 350 Sci down another notch, MT in 2 @ -11gpt. Really annoyed about Cleo. Just look at the stack sitting on her borders, it's really more than enough! Instead I just got to build stuff. No
for the Pizzamen today Settler could probably go 1NW to fill in the culture boundaries, and still get all the BGs right off. I was aiming to go by the Game, but Kazan''s boundaries expanded first. 10 turns left on the Cleo deal. We have a choice: abandon going after her, and pile on Brennus right away, or wait. I have a plan in mind for Brennus, though, and it requires a little preparation (and a lot of Settlers...). The shape of his empire makes it a logical way of going about things, though. Bear in mind any war vs. Brennus must be total extermination, otherwise flip risks will hang around.Obligatory picture of something - our present for Cleo, this time:
Neil.
eldar
ChiefTank
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Thanks for the minimap. Loading the save now. Looks like we don't get to keep the Celtic towns. 
Back later with ideas.
Back later with ideas.
Similar threads
