TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod

Thanks, Ginger Ale! That was what I was thinking, although I couldn't have said it so clearly. I disagree with you on one point -- Tarsus cannot be a 4-turn settler/warrior factory because it will go down to size 4 when it builds the settler...meaning it can't build the warrior. It also can't build the warrior first (at size 5) because of corruption. So I think the best we can do is...

Go back and irrigate two of the cows. I think then, for the short term, Hattusas will be a 4-turn warrior/settler factory, and Tarsus will be a 6-turn warrior/settler factory. When the game gets irrigated someday (quite a ways away), one of the irrgated cows can get mined again to get both cities to 5fpt. But I'm still thinking about this...
 
lurker's comment: You've got quite a few possibilities, but none of them are making Tarsus into a four turn warr/sett factory. It is already losing one of four shields to corruption. At size five, it can be at 10spt, but lose one to corruption. At size six, it will only be at 11spt (unless you give it all three cows, expand the borders somehow, or don't have it at 5fpt), and will lose 2spt to corruption. Best scenario at size 5 without taking all three cows is 9spt after corruption. There's just no good way to turn it into a warr/sett combo right now.

Hatt can easily be a 4 turn warr/sett factory using two cows, but then Tarsus is at best, a 6 turn sett factory (one cow) with some random military tossed into the mix. You can use both as 4 turn sett factories by chopping/irrigating the game and only giving one cow to Hatt, but neither will be pushing out any military at all.

You've already got Babs on your front porch, with Portugal and the Russians on either side. On Demigod, you don't have nearly as much time to screw around. By the time you get two 4 turn settler factories up and running, not only will you be short on military, but the AI will probably settle right next to your capitol...fun stuff.

My advice? Well, I'd set up Hatt to be the 4 turn warr/sett combo, using two cows (one irrigated). I'd give an irrigated cow to Tarsus, and just have it pop settlers and workers in between military. You've got a lot of close neighbors, I don't know if setting up two four turn settler factories is really warranted, especially with the lack of military you'd have at that point with neither of those two cities being able to produce military. Both cities would be wasting many shields on the settler builds, and you'd have to go and chop that game as well as irrigate a useless grassland to boot.

Pink dot is probably a bad idea as well. Being in culture conflict with two Bab cities is probably not the best idea on Demigod.

Just to let you know, if you had not popped the settler, (the GH gave me CB), the Babs would have settled two spots NE of where Tarsus currently is. Yeah, I couldn't resist playing your starting save with all those cows around. ;)
 
Mach said:
Thanks, Ginger Ale! That was what I was thinking, although I couldn't have said it so clearly. I disagree with you on one point -- Tarsus cannot be a 4-turn settler/warrior factory because it will go down to size 4 when it builds the settler...meaning it can't build the warrior. It also can't build the warrior first (at size 5) because of corruption. So I think the best we can do is...

Go back and irrigate two of the cows. I think then, for the short term, Hattusas will be a 4-turn warrior/settler factory, and Tarsus will be a 6-turn warrior/settler factory. When the game gets irrigated someday (quite a ways away), one of the irrgated cows can get mined again to get both cities to 5fpt. But I'm still thinking about this...

Sorry, I forgot: you bulid the warrior before the settler, then it will work. :)
 
ginger ale said:
Sorry, I forgot: you bulid the warrior before the settler, then it will work.
Er, like shadow just said (hi shadow!) at size 5 it can work 3bgs, 1 irr cow, 1 mined cow...for 10 shields before waste. Since it will assuredly have a smidge of waste, 1-2 shields, it can't make that 1-turn warrior... :)
 
Thanks for the analysis Ginger & Shadow. Wish I had the ability or planning to sit down and do that sort of analysis.

Sorry guys. I guess I need my idiot's express card back from you A-K. I've never had so many food bonuses and didn't expect the other city so soon. I guess that's what dman gets for not wanting to go first.... :rolleyes:

It seemed to me that all of the AI with the exception of the Babylonians and Ottomans maybe had bad starts (ie. jungle, marsh and/or desert). So we might be able to back track and it not hurt us so bad. I think that we should go with Ginger's plan and go from there. With basically a 2-turn settler factory. We'd be able to fill in every gap on the map. Now we just need a place to get workers to improve the rest of the terrain and military to defend and conquer everything
 
Jeez... we play DG, and we get to balance out the major DG starting bonus on our FIRST TURN?! And 3 cows, Game, 6 BGs, two gold hills, in our city radius? Man... we should be playing this at Sid :) Any level below would be a shoo-in for an OCC, I'd guess.
 
I have it will read Tubby's log and play tonight...
Give me some ideas as well...
 
Tubby Rower said:
Sorry about the mining. I wasn't thinking I guess. I'm glad you guy yelled at me instead of dman!!!

So, that's kind of image I made of myself :lol:
Yeah Tubby, i was going to yell on those 3 cows mined, but then again with best startup location i saw in very long time and free settler I almost wished you messed things up more than you actually did. :) .

Basically, I do agree with Ginger Ale :thanx: and we will follow that plan.
Hattutas - 4 turn settler factory; Tarsus spits settlers/workers/military in and between.
Unlike the TR02 our neigbours are so close and it won't fill each and every square... We will be lucky if we get first ring cities built and then some before we have to start fighting for survival.

Tubby Rower said:
What can we do on DemiGod????
Launch space ship perhaps to avoid extermination... I know i don't sound like myself, just kidding :) . But i think we should at least decide if this is going to be a military type of victory or peaceful one. or is it too early and we will change our minds?


Tubby Rower said:
Roster:
Tubby Rower - mined too many cows
Dman - up
Minute Man - on deck
Mach
Bede
A-K
eldar

I suggest to change roster a little and put Bede between Minute Mand and Mach.
This way trainers will alternate trainees and help us to keep this game under control better.

Admiral Kutzov said:
Yellow dot looks good for moving near the dyes. Need to give this more thought. Be interesting to see where dman takes this.
It is tempting to move yellow dot one tile west to get dyes into city radius.
That should be our next city in any rate, before Porto claims the land.

Then we will need to get a city south of Hattutas to claim wines and the next one for silks.

I don't feel good about having undefended cities and bab warrior lurking nearby. On DG level that's just clear text invitation for them...
@Tubby: Was it clear where that warrior was heading? If i don't change production from settler to military now it will be too late next turn.

I hate having Babylon as direct neigbours. With their cheap temples and libraries they will certainly become cultural monsters.. Given chances, We will have to deal with them before anybody else.

Our UU - 3men chariot... But as usually we will have to change our government type before entering GA. Nice timing as in TR02 is preferred.
 
I'm still trying to figure out the start. Just to be a :devil:, what if there's not much more land out there in the fog? what good's a settler pump gonna do? Having said that,
Hattutas - 4 turn settler factory; Tarsus spits settlers/workers/military in and between.
I like the plan.
 
dmanakho said:
But i think we should at least decide if this is going to be a military type of victory or peaceful one. or is it too early and we will change our minds?

I'm OK with the military victory, but it probably is too early to decide.

dmanakho said:
I suggest to change roster a little and put Bede between Minute Mand and Mach.
This way trainers will alternate trainees and help us to keep this game under control better.

What, you don't trust me not to screw things up, so you need somebody who actually has some idea how to play this game to go after me? :lol: I'm afraid you're probably right, though....
 
Minute Man said:
What, you don't trust me not to screw things up, so you need somebody who actually has some idea how to play this game to go after me? :lol: I'm afraid you're probably right, though....

I trust you. ;)
it is more to ensure that one of the "trainers" actually opens the save and provides some suggestions to the next player :)

I think we can modify dot map by moving yellow dot one tile west and cyan dot north. This way we still will have tight city placement and claim all BGs with no expansion needed.
Blue dot i would move one tile west closer to Hattitus.
 
Save comes first

Pre-turn:
Push lux slider up to 20%

IBT: For a second i had a very bad feeling :twitch: forgetting to switch Tarsus to military unit, but we are lucky and bab warrior is heading away. Russian SoD (2 warriors covered with spear) are moving towards Hattutas

T1. 2950BC Worker to ming BG.

IBT. Russian SoD moves south

T2. 2900BC Hattutas granary->warrior.

T3. 2850BC. Worker finished roading BG. Move to BG south from Hattutas. We have 3 workers - this is good. It will be important though to use them in most efficient way. Babylon has two workers but won't sale. Spain has Wheel!!!!
oh... no sale is possible. I just hope we get writing 1st and sell it around. No republic slingshot is possible on DG, so don't even try to hold for writing - sell it ASAP if we are the 1st to get it.

T4. 2800BC. hattutas warrior->warrior; Tarsus settler->Warrior. Sending settler towards Yellow dot. Still hasn't decided on best location. Babylon now has 3 workers for sale. THey are either having major barb infestation or they are at war. No technological changes. lux slider down to 10%

IBT: Arrgh!! Barbarian shows up west from us threatening settler.

T5. 2750BC I have to take warrior of hattutas and bump lux slider to 30%. Hattutas has grown to pop 4

T6. 2710BC. Hattutas warrior->settler in 4. Move citizen from Game to river side BG to max gold. Worker mined BG moved and started irrigating cow.
Major technological advances happened. RUssia and Porto know IW and Myst. Porto also has 2 workers on sale. Babylon has 3 workers on sale. Spain still has exclusive on Wheel and nobody will trade even if i drop our sci. slider
to 0. I sould Spain Masonry for 25 gold just to be able to keep researching writing on Max.

T7. 2670BC. Scout evades barbarians.

IBT. Barb warrior decided to go worker hunting near Tartus, but still few tiles away.

T8. 2639BC. Ugarit founded one tile west from originally proposed yellow dot switched to warrior. We popped the barb hut and got 25gold. Hattutas grew to pop 5. I have to give him all 3 cows to get +5gpt. Settler in 2. Lux slider is up to 30%. Writing in 7. AIs did the trick they love to do and sold all techs around. So everybody is up at least 3 techs now.

IBT. Now, this is cool and never seen before. Fortified barb warrior killed 4 (four) portugese warriors and stays alive. :clap:
Stack of 3 more porto warriors are moving our direction. Another barb warrior directly treatens our worker.

T9. 2590BC. I have to move a warrior from Tarsus to cover our worker.

IBT. Porto warrior finally kills offending barb.

T10. 2550BC. Ok, all workers finished doing something. I decided to rename them for easy reference.
So here we go... Moe finished mining BG->road it. Curly finished mining BG move it across the river to Tartus towards another BG. And finally Larry finished irrigating cow and moves to river side BG.
Hattutas settler->Warrior. Move settler south towards Wine.. i wasn't sure if i need to supply it with ecscort, but then i saw russian SoD and decided to let him go alone - russians would take care of all barbs down there. (Only
problem if russia decides to declare on us if we settle right next to their SoD). I really want to get writing 1st and if i send warrior to cover settler i would have to raise lux slider therefore lowering sci. slider. Right now we have writing in 5 and lets keep it that way. But don't be lux slider shy if you have to. (never hire clowns, ever)

Post-turn: Ugarit should build warrior->worker->barracks. All new cities should probably use the same order build.
Workers to improve land around new cities and start pumping chariots/horses (I hope by that time we will have wheel)
We can decide if Hattutas should change to settler. But we are really thin on millitary and there are too many AI warriors running around. So we might want to get a warrior from hattutas before starting on next settler.
We should keep building reg. warriors in Tarsus to cover settlers produced in hattutas and for MP purposes. Once we have enough we can build something else in Tarsus.
Worker south from Hattutas once finished road should get wines connected before doing anything else.
I moved one of the scouts back. He should explore lands south from us.

@Minute Man: This is important:

1. Always MM around Hattutas each and every turn to make it efficient settler factory.
Check Hattutas every turn and move a citizen from Game to river-side BG if it doesn't hurt production. (that will give us extra gold). 2. Get writing ASAP. Once you get writing trading order must be:
a) trade with AI who has all technologies but has no money. Get us much as you can for writing.
b) start selling writing from the wealthiest AIs to the poorest ones (writing will drop in price each time, so you want to make sure you get to the wealthy ones first).
c) get those workers if Babylon still has them (or anybody else for that matter) even if that mean we have to pay for them in addition to the techs. The more workers we have the better.​
3. Do not use all workers improving a single city. Spread them around.
Larry-Do Hattutas improvements until everything is mined/roaded for settler factory then move to the next city.
Curly to continue impoving around Tarsus
Moe to connect wines and start improving around new southern city.
Well... You get the point :)
4. I suggest to ignore irrigating second cow. Doesn't look like we are in urgent need in second settler factory. Improve unimproved tiles first. This is debatable though.

Screnies for the curious crowd:
tr03-2550BC.JPG

P.S. This map looks like Pangea... Tubby, are you sure we are playing continents???? I doubt so.
 
Fortified barb warrior killed 4 (four) portugese warriors and stays alive
:cool:

Moe finished mining BG->road it. Curly finished mining BG move it across the river to Tartus towards another BG. And finally Larry finished irrigating cow and moves to river side BG.
naming workers after my followers? :crazyeye: :lol:

never hire clowns, ever
unless you're in late game anarchy...

Once we have enough we can build something else in Tarsus.
maybe a rax?

I like red circle on grapes better than red dot. Would be same distance from capital as Tarsus and thus have same corruption? Does that make sense? Does it hold for Conquests? Also save a couple of worker turns connecting the lux.

I really hate early games above Emperor. Much more fun to MM when cops and CE are around. Understand the need, just venting.

Future thought for a city. On the fog near the surplus dyes? Trade goods?
 
Surrogate roster duty since Tubby's off in balmy Chicago (as per dman's mod):

Tubby Rower - mined too many cows
Dman - just played
Minute Man - up to expansion
Bede - still making lists, keeps him out of jail
Mach - hanging out
AK - saber broken, bought cutlass today, police out front, mumbling about disturbing the peace
eldar - maintaining low profile for now
 
Thanks for the roster update A-K.... I'll be heading out tomorrow and this is probably the last time I'll check in until at least Thursday night.

Great job with a bad start dman. Sorry I couldn't have passed you off three cities and a settler ;)

@ A-K how is the black-outs going with all of that hitting your head with the sword???
 
It is not the Admiral's head we need to worry about. That qualifies as a useless appendage anyway. But if he cuts off a digit....watch out.

A note on settlement distances: There is a really funky interplay between distance and rank (founding order) in C3C. The one thing you don't want to do is build a later town within the distance to the nearest productive towns as that will increase corruption in the older towns further out. Does that make sense? As I said it is funky. And I may even have it backwards. But that is one of the factors that makes "settle from the outside in" a tricky approach to take.
 
Tubby's off in balmy Chicago
It actually was nice and balmy today -- felt like the first day of spring. But it's supposed to get cold & wet the next coupla days, sorry tub...

Not much else to say. I like the dotmap -- I like red dot where it is, since the wines will give us that extra food. And I like the worker dispositions. Keep them workers apart. And good luck MinuteMan!

My job for tomorrow: stare at the c3c corruption equations in the war academy...
 
OK, I got it. I'm a bit exhausted from my SGOTM6 turns, so I don't think I'll get this played until tomorrow night. Will try to follow your advice, dman.

And I like the red dot where it is, too, but that might change when we see more of the territory around there.

Bede said:
A note on settlement distances: There is a really funky interplay between distance and rank (founding order) in C3C. The one thing you don't want to do is build a later town within the distance to the nearest productive towns as that will increase corruption in the older towns further out.

Well, adding a closer town will make all the further towns more corrupt, true. But I didn't think the order towns were founded makes any difference in the overall corruption (aside from being used as a tie-breaker with two towns at the same distance) - all that matters is the distance to the capital and the number of towns that are closer.
 
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