Trading Alphabet

[Virupaksha]

I am now playing on emporer difficulty being able to consistently win on monarch.

My tech path is to get the basic worker techs, somewhat map dependent but agriculture, mining, wheel, BW or AH, sometimes both, maybe pottery, and then beeline to alphabet.

On monarch I would save alpha and not trade it, trading smaller techs instead but the problem on emporer is that when I get to alpha it tends to be the only tech I have available to trade which the AI does not have.

Should I trade alpha in these circumstances or should I still refuse to trade it as my monopoly tech. Being able to trade techs when no-one else can do it seems a huge advantage which I'm reluctant to relinquish.

 

[yyeah]

iirc Emperor is lvl where tech trading skill starts to be importand thing.
If you ask me should you trade it i say yes but carefullly witch meens trade it for something that you realy need if noone else have it, or trade it then if someone else reach it.
I dont rememebr how fast ais rech alpha on Emp but maybe you should start consider to not self tech it but trade for alpha with Aste ( great trade if you have marble, sometimes you can trade it for math as well), HBR ( even better trade imo if you want to rush some1 early), or math ( if you realy need math fast). Thing with Alph is that ais tends to get it preety early onn higher dificulties so self techin it is not allway good option if you want to beeline it thats ok thats great play but you need to beeline it so no BW no other stuff just click on alpha on turn 0 ( maybe mining or something cheep witch you realy need).

 

[ikotomi]

If you're not greatly in need of something the AI has, I would wait until you get Currency so you can sell Alphabet. Otherwise, you get more value out of Alphabet by skipping the early techs to get it earlier, so you can trade Writing for the rest of the basic techs. If you hit it early enough, it more than pays off for the early production hit you take for skipping BW and AH/Pottery. You will also be more likely to trade the early techs you got with writing to the other AI's that don't get them early. Usually if got at a reasonable time, you can get all the essential techs without trading Alphabet to more than one AI giving you a good amount of time to wait until you get a better trade for alphabet.

On Emperor, most AI's still take quite a long time to tech alphabet, so unless you have Mansa Musa, it takes very long to be able to trade for it. Going straight for Alphabet is probably the strongest non military start, and will usually immediately place you as the tech leader.

 

[Fractal Spiral]

From what I've seen the main thing is thinking about what will give your situation the greatest relative advantage, and also if you can slow the other players it helps too. It would vary from situation to situation, like where sometimes you are getting Alphabet super early because you're going to trade for super early stuff, like Bronze Working or Pottery or such, in that case you need to get to Alphabet fast, and you don't want to give away Alpha unless its for something big and essential, if you HAVE to you trade it. Until it gets to a point where you got your advantage, and now you can get value off Alphabet trading, like for Iron Working when you're already pressing ahead for Currency or Aesthetics etc. Waiting for Currency as mentioned is VERY good too, Currency then sell Polytheism / Sailing / Priesthood etc. stuff that people trade you, sell tech for cash if its not important techs. I would try not to sell stuff for too cheap though, because Emperor AI are already going fast enough.

Sometimes you do a start though where you attack early, or where your expansion/economy makes you tech extra stuff / slower. So in that case, or especially Emperor, Immortal, Deity, I would still want Alphabet but I don't want to be getting it and having like no trades at all. Cuz Deity AI especially they will get Alphabet and even crazy stuff like Math, Monarchy etc so fast. Thats why I saw a lot of people get Aesthetics as a plan after Writing, then you end up trading Aesthetics into Alphabet (put a few turns on Alpha), into Mathematics etc hopefully getting a lot of advantage/value.

It all depends, another cool thing I saw was someone rush attacked with Horseback Riding, gets some cities, then takes peace leave them alive with a few cities, and make them give a technology for peace, like Alphabet for free if they have it. That could work interestingly, it's good to test different paths.

The main thing is to get advantages and build on the advantages, with tech leads or key tech bulbing or world wonders or war etc., once you get a good lead you get stronger and stronger.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

In a nutshell, you can either :
- beeline Alphabet more aggressively (skipping more basic techs to get there) ;
- skip Alphabet and research more beneficial techs (Aesthetics with Marble ; Maths for chops & Civil Service beeline / Construction war ; HBR for Horse Archer rush ; Oracle CoL/MC + research stuff, etc.).

If you don't beeline Alphabet aggressively,
Then you should try to weight the benefits you'd get from Alpha against the benefits you'd get from other techs.

it's good to test different paths.

 

[MegaLurker]

Depends on your map type, your land, your neighbours, how you plan on winning. On Emperor difficulty the human player should be able to set the tech pace, so if you (more or less) beeline Alpha you should get it first 9 times out of 10, probably more. A Mansa Musa or WvO or Huayna Capac with a high commerce start might beat you to it if you're not focused.

On Emperor difficulty you can extort a lot of techs for peace with nothing more advanced than chariots or axes. You can extort even more with the war success HAs will give you, so alpha generally pays for itself if you war early. AIs on this level won't consistently tech ALpha early enough , so self-teching it is strong. Especially because you can usually extort Maths for peace (extra bonus discount on Currency with ALpha as well).

As difficulty goes up from here the usefulness of self-teching ALpha goes down as the date it will be available for trade gets earlier. Going for Alpha and then not trading it doesn't make sense to me. Tech trading multiplies your tech rate and not trading it means you're self-teching everything. Trade it for everything you can get and let the AIs essentially research things for you.

 

[Virupaksha]

Thx for all replies.

As MegaLurker said, on emperor my experience is I can almost always be first to alpha. I would worry were I not to self tech it that I would get seriously behind on tech. I play on vanilla so there is no aesthetics, and if I don't tech alpha myself there could be no tech trading for quite some time.

On Monarch I would often tech Polytheism after Alpha and use that to pick up the other small techs (fishing, masonry, archery, sailing etc), then self tech maths (wouldn't be first but would always get IW for it), then currency and try to get at least 2 techs for that (calendar, CoL, construction etc). I'd then be tech leader holding alpha as a monopoly tech.

This is impossible on emporer but I will try skipping BW as suggested, the extra 15 turns or so could make quite a difference, but I'd miss the whipping and chopping and be very afraid of barbarian axemen.

Reading the posts I think my main problem moving up difficulties is my avaersion to early war. Normally I don't war until drafting riflemen and have won on emporer this way but the diplomacy required is nail biting stuff.

 

[MrGrandiose]

This is impossible on emporer but I will try skipping BW as suggested, the extra 15 turns or so could make quite a difference, but I'd miss the whipping and chopping and be very afraid of barbarian axemen.

Reading the posts I think my main problem moving up difficulties is my avaersion to early war. Normally I don't war until drafting riflemen and have won on emporer this way but the diplomacy required is nail biting stuff.

I just can't phantom a good start without chopping/slaving. There is so much macro opportunity with these two tools to set up granaries and minimizing time spent building Settlers & workers...

 

[ikotomi]

Dealing with barbs can actually be quite tricky without axeman or chariots. On Emperor, you can make a short detour to get TW or AH (depending on whether you got writing from AH or Pottery) if the game is getting hectic without slowing down too much. The most efficient way to deal with barbs is to build one or two more warriors and fog busting well enough to survive until you get alphabet.

It's for sure a slower start production-wise, but I wouldn't consider your production crippled, because there's usually plenty of worker labor even if you don't have chops just by moving your initial worker between your new cities. Viru is playing vanilla, so early bw is stronger, but in BTS delaying your chops can leave you in better shape going into the mid game because you'll save more trees for when you get maths.

The key is getting alphabet early so you can trade for those key techs earlier. If you get it too slow, you start really feeling the pain of your missing techs.

 

[guspasho]

What usually happens when I beeline Alpha is I can catch up on everything everyone is willing to trade without trading Alpha, except for one AI with Iron Working. Should I trade it ASAP or wait for other AIs to research other techs they can trade me?

 

[Virupaksha]

@ guspacho

What level are you playing on?

 

[ikotomi]

Alphabet is the last tech that's kind of safe to hold onto and wait for a better deal, since the civ without alphabet needs to research something that the civ with alphabet is willing to trade it away for. AI gives each other discounts, but alphabet is still quite expensive relative to the other techs that early in the game, and you can usually trade around or gift the cheaper techs to the AI before AI gets a chance to get rid of alphabet.

That being said, you need to pay attention to what techs are available from the civ you haven't traded alphabet to. If they have a tech that the other civs with alphabet have, you should consider trading alphabet sooner rather than later. Even if you don't get a good deal, you get a ton of credit towards the "fair trade" diplomacy modifier, which is extremely useful for getting friendly with an AI so you can trade even more techs.

 

[Virupaksha]

So took the plunge and went for a superfast Alpha beeline. Gave up my beloved Philosophical and picked Hattie (Spi, Crea on vanilla) for he Agriculture and Wheel starting techs, and managed to roll a start with dry pig, 1 gold, 1gem. Tech paths was AH, mining, writing, alpha. Built worker then grew to size 3 to work the pig, gems, gold and got to Alpha at 2080BC before settling 3rd city. Had horses 1 tile outside capital's BFC but being creative grew onto them naturally.

Continent had Peter, Rooseveldt, Nappy and Cyrus and none of them had writing by the time I got Alpha. Slightly messes up the trading by not getting masonry from Rooseveldt then trading that to Cyrus and Peter who still didn't have it but still got BW, hunting, fishing, masonry, mysticism and archery in trades, and war chariots kept the barbs at bay without problems.

So thx all for the good advice.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

That's one way of solving your issue, Virupaksha, CREative Civs are particularly well fitted for a AH --> Writing --> Alpha beeline. Hattie was a good choice.
Now maybe you should try some other ways : researching basic worker techs into Mathematics (forests)/HBR (horses) can work very well, or Aesthetics (marble).

If you're researching faster than the AIs, you could, conceivably, research Aesth + Maths (example) before they get Alphabet.
Provided marble, that would be a strong way to set up early wonders.

Also, you should look into the Oracle gambits.
The Oracle gives you a trade bait for Alphabet AND gives you time to research other Classical Era techs.
Conceivably, following an Oracle, you could have Code of Laws, Mathematics and Currency by the time the AIs get Alphabet. With this sort of opener, you'd be well on your way towards Civil Service.

--> What I mean, here, is that Alphabet is just a tech among others.
Depending on your map, leader, strategy, some other techs may provide you with better benefits.


Finally, it might help to consider the leaders around you, when considering early/late Alpha, whether to research it or trade for it.
Megalurker mentioned how Alphabet had more value on Pangaea types of maps.
Leaders like Darius, Victoria, Asoka, Peter or Lincoln and some others are likely to go for an early Alphabet. Leaders like Monty and Louis XIV, not so much.
Examining the crew that's around you can help placing a value on Alphabet

 

[Virupaksha]

@BIC

I play on vanilla so there is no aesthetics. Seems to me Hattie, Catherine and maybe Mansa are main Oracle rivals on vanilla, haven't had Victoria all that often due to many games playing as Elizabeth. Played the last game on a continents map - was just lucky with number of AIs (although I often play on large but not this game).

However I like the idea of an oracle gambit. My two questions would be which leader to choose and what tech to aim for?

Maybe Qin (ind/Fin, starting techs Agg + mining). I'd still need barb protection though. Tech path AH, wheel, mysticism, polytheism, priesthood, writing, maths to Oracle currency. Looks a bit ambitious and would have to find horses. Maybe BW, wheel, pottery, then oracle techs for metal casting? Probably time for AH if no copper. What do you think?

Trouble is I'd still be very tempted to take Alpha as the Oracle tech.....

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I play on vanilla so there is no aesthetics.

Right, I forgot about that, my bad.


It's possible to draw a parallel between the Oracle and the Alphabet beeline :
- the more techs you skip before researching Alphabet, the better value you can get out of it ;
- the more techs you skip before completing the Oracle, the earlier you can do it and the safer it becomes.

In each case, a beeline is preferable.
In each case, however, you sacrifice some production to get an edge in .
For an Alphabet beeline, you sacrifice some worker techs like Bronze Working or Pottery.
For a Priesthood beeline, you invest 150 hammers into the wonder.

So... there isn't a single tech path that is optimal.
That is entirely map dependent. Also depends on your starting techs.
A leader starting with Agriculture + Mining, 2x corn, gold and riverside capitol could beeline Priesthood from 4000 BC.
If you need to pasture Pigs first, or research BW, then there's your detour. Sometimes Masonry for a marble quarry is the detour, sometimes you want Sailing or The Wheel, it all may vary.

In any case, you never want to sacrifice early expansion entirely to complete your wonder or get Alphabet.
In the case of the Oracle, you should aim to settle at least 1 city before completing it. In such cases, city 2 will often be tasked with building the settler for city 3. If you have the opportunity, then it's conceivable to build the Oracle with 3 or even 4 cities.

In the case of an early wonder, it helps to have a target date. Safety should always be the primary concern (on top of not sacrificing expansio too much).
In some games it's possible to build a late 1000 BC Oracle. However, it wouldn't be very sensible to plan for a 1000 BC Oracle from turn 0.
If you're planning to go for the Oracle from very early (turn 0-15), then you shouldn't aim to complete it after turn 60 or 1600 BC.

On the highest difficulties, the Oracle is relatively safe before turn 55 or 1800 BC and even safer before turn 50 or 2000 BC.
Those dates determine the amount of early techs one can research before going for Priesthood. Takes planning or experience. Those dates also vary according to the difficulty level and the rival leaders : leaders like Isabella or Pacal can go for very early Oracles. Meeting them early is a good reason to choose other tech paths.

 

[ikotomi]

I would say that Oracle is strongest when you're gunning for the tier of techs after alphabet. The priesthood path of tech is quite lackluster except for Oracle, so you're giving up quite a lot early for something as cheap as alphabet. You can Oracle alphabet to get it really fast, but because it's relatively cheap you aren't saving a huge amount of turns than beelining it normally, so the hammers you spent hurt more. The more expensive the tech, the earlier you are getting it than researching it yourself, because the hammers become much more effective than commerce.

In particular, Currency and Construction are extremely powerful targets. Currency for its sheer economic power, and Construction for the fast elephants and catapults.

One cute thing you can try on Emperor and easier is to beeline alphabet, and then trade for the religious techs to get Oracle, allowing Currency to be available off the bat. I'm not sure if this required either marble or gold to pull off, but a slingshot of that magnitude breaks the game wide open. It is nice because you're not crippled if you miss Oracle, because you got alphabet first.

On immortal, CoL or metal casting isn't bad, because you can often trade it for alphabet and have two expensive techs to trade around. I personally don't like it as much as planning for currency because i find forges hard to prioritize that early in the game.

 

[Virupaksha]

Firstly thx for all the input, I'm learning a lot from other people's perspectives.

@BIC

I wouldn't consider AH/BW a detour as on emperor barbs will come before the 1800BC oracle date you suggest. And sometimes a hoard come at once. Are you suggesting dealing with these barbs with warriors? If so I'd need some coaching as to how this would be done.

@Ikatomi

I don't think beelining Alpha then going for oracle can work on emperor. In the above game I had an almost ideal start (although I was not on a plains hill) and reached Alpha at 2080BC. I'm fairly good at the start, maybe better players could have reached it a couple of turns earlier but not much more than that. At that point I didn't have mysticism let alone priesthood (ok I got mysticism in a trade that turn but in that game on my continent only Nappy had polytheism which he wouldn't trade and no-one had meditation). Oracle I think went at about 1800BC (Confucionism founded on the other continent). I don't see how I could beat that without forgoing Alpha.

If I could oracle currency then I'd see the purpose to it. If I get MC or CoL then to be honest I think I'd rather have Alpha(despite those techs being superficially worth more). Am I missing something here?

 

[Virupaksha]

Re-reading BIC's post above another thing crops up. Getting Alpha this early didn't clash with expansion - I was building my second settler for my third city when I reached it. Had I gone for oracle at this time I would have had to delay this 3rd city.

Seems the more I consider it the more essential early Alphs seems. Attempts to rid me of this attachment greatly welcomed.

 

[ikotomi]

If you want to play a lot of different starts, playing fractal maps or continents often requires you to adjust your opening depending on what type of map arises. Alphabet is quite weak if you're isolated or stuck with bad trading partners like Tokugawa. Playing a start that requires a lot of techs to get rolling, like coastal starts makes the production you get from BW much more appealing (and you might need to tech fishing as well). Going for a military strategy also changes your early priorities, depending on what units you're shooting to rush with.

Of course, just moving up to immortal will force you to make a read as to whether it's possible for you to win the alphabet race (you can get alpha first even on deity, but it's not always worth it or possible).

As for alphabet into oracle, it does require a few things to go right that gets even harder as difficulty goes up. Getting masonry from a hut, or starting with gold to speed up your tech helps a lot though, as well as the AI pool not having leaders that tend to go the oracle route. I believe only one or two of these things need to happen in order for it to work, as with or without masonry chopping is still quite strong. If I went alpha first and saw that oracle hadn't popped yet, it's definitely something to consider. If you play a lot of games, I would be surprised if you never saw a start that good. Even if you miss oracle though you're not crippled, because priesthood is a relatively cheap tech to research and the alphabet start already has you caught up.