Tradition's 3 cities(food focused) opening

Tabarnak

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Update : I have put an example with images at end of post
Update 2: Better orthograph, syntax, etc. thanks to a volunteer(i didn't ask at all :)) : tomtom5858 :goodjob: Thanks a lot mate!
Update 3: A better and enhanced strategy originaly transformed from this article is online!(war academy)

I present you a 3 cities Trad approach based on food caravans. This approach is for players that want to get a nice empire based on population and huge cities. A bit like the GnK approach, we want the gpt or gold from AIs to fuel our empire. But things are a lot different. AIs react differently, you can't trade for lump sum of gold, etc.

This approach have been tested under Emperor and Immortal exclusively, standard settings and pace, mainly on continents/fractal maps. I haven't tried this at Deity but it's possible that the caravans are better suited for international trade routes because the AI techs so fast the bonus earned can be more valuable than food. But this is another debate; I will concentrate only on these levels. I tested with civs with no early bonuses to keep the thread ''optimistic''. Take note that the caravans include the cargo ships as well. A cargo ship is much stronger than a single caravan but needs more hammers.

This strategy is not the ''holy grail'' or something like that. It's only a kind of start that can be used for long term diplo/science game, or even mid/late game domination for players who love or want to play the Tradition tree but still wonder how to get a good start from it.

The goal is to get 3 cities(your capital and 2 more cities), 3 or 4 workers and 2 caravans sending food from the capital in a reasonnable timeframe. I played many games and ended a large majority of games with everything before the turn 70. But there is something important to know:

-You need some workable hammer tiles and at least 1 non jungle/sea lux tile
-You need AIs with at least a little gpt to trade, at least 2 or 3 in general

This is the minimum. Otherwise it will take too much time for a good start, and it would be better to go with 2 cities. But you miss the extra early food caravan, which is the main point of this thread ;)

And here is the build and rush buy order which i find the most ''practical''. Lot of things can happen and this should be used only as a set of guidelines, not as law.

Build Order :

Scout-Worker(until Pottery)-Shrine-finish Worker-Settler-Scout-Settler-Caravan-Caravan-...???

Can be a lot different(aka faster, easier) playing some suited civs, traders, etc.

Rush buy Order

1-Worker
2-Granary(in capital)

Don't buy any tiles. Buy them ASAP, in that order.

Tech Order

Pottery--->Lux Tech--->AH--->Lux Tech--->Writing--->Sailing--->Philo(NC)

Policy Order :

-Opener
-Legalism
-Landed Elite
-Monarchy
-Aristocracy
-Oligarchy

Explanation :

Settling on a lux and/or in prevision to work 2 or 3 hills can be very important. I find a single scout enough for the first 35 turns. The idea is to use warrior and scout to scout for 25 turns, approximatively the time when the 1st worker will be done. Use warrior to protect worker and use scout to maybe steal an early cs of you are lucky.

Improve first lux ASAP. Sell it for at least 4 gpt. Improve everything that can be sold. You can run with 2 cities without a single lux. You can run 3 cities with a single lux combined with Monarchy and even more if you find some natural wonders.

The scout after 1st settler serves to get extra protection for your 2 or maybe 3 civilian units wandering around. This scout can steal a worker from a nearby cs, right in time when they begin to send them out. Use a unit to explore farther and check for other civs/cs.

Around turn 35-40, with 2 workers and 2 cities, the gpt will raise drastically, to over 10 or 15 gpt if everything is right. A worker bought around turn 40-45 is a good start. 3rd city goes around 45-50, and it's time to build on Caravans. If a granary is rushed, your capital should be able to build them faster too. This granary(bought) really give a large boost, even for building settlers faster if bought very early.

2nd city can build stuff for your personnal taste :cool: You only need to start a library ASAP in 3rd city right when you settle. 2nd city can finish a granary before starting with the library if it has enough hammers. GPT can reach over 30 gpt if cities got really big very fast, even before the turn 70, if caravans are online very quickly.

Lot of civs and events can accelerate the build order. I ran into games where i made a Declaration of Friendship with 1 or 2 AIs very early. I will not explain more how much this can be really great. This whole thing can be done without lump sum and under conditions where the capital can hard build a granary and still get nice results. It's too mush to discuss in this post, so i will let the other players find what is the most fun and playable around this strategy.

Pros :

-Nice and juicy cities before the turn 100. Can be 4 of them if you rush/build a 4th city, get engineering, send another food caravan and let him grow at lightning speed with his free aqueduct, right after the National College.

-Strong empire for solid core cities with strong production. Great for mid game wonders/science approach.

Cons :

-Lack of early wonders built

-Low military(pre 70)

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At emperor and immortal i never been attacked before the turn 70. Never. It isn't bad even if you have low in military. But when your cities have finished libraries and getting food trades, this is where the empire really jump into great growth. This is where you can easily build an army of 5-6 CBs in less than 10 turns(build archers before getting construction) and start with a pretty large army around the turn 80-90.

When the first round of both caravans are expired, it's often the time to switch for international trades. With many luxs hooked, bigger cities and better choices, you will be in measure to get the best from these routes. Your big cities will generate enough gold from your own trade route combined with free buildings from Tradition. The rest is for your own profits :D You can get over 40-50 gpt around the turn 100.

This approach can be good, i think, for GOTM games where a scout opening can be enough to check if this start can be faisible or not, in the right timeframe.

Example

Here is a start i rolled with Assyria(very 1st one) on a pangea map immortal. Let's see the starting position :

Spoiler :


As we can see, the overall aspect don't really fit for a Trad start because of lack of hammers. We need to buy the hill to the left to make it work but that's way too expensive. So i scouted with warrior to the left and settled there instead. Now we can build settlers at a good pace.

Spoiler :


Only 1 unique lux to improve immediately. But it will be a good idea to settle for ivory later to the right. I hit a free :c5citizen: and saw Brazil for the first time.

Spoiler :


Some turns later i found 60 gold from a ruin. Gold is always welcome. Around 20ish turns my initial units came back to to heal and protect the worker. Starting on my 1st settler.

Spoiler :


Don't forget to work best hammer tiles while building a settler.

Spoiler :


I managed to DoF Brazil on turn 28 but his income sucks a bit.

Spoiler :


After some turns the barbs are a bit more annoying, but the 2 improved tiles are safe.

Spoiler :


My spearman came back with a worker from a cs. The 2nd settler is about to go out.

Spoiler :


Finally got an ok deal from Brazil.

Spoiler :


Too bad i only have 2 unique luxs total and very few of them(and it's pretty rare) but i managed to work something good anyway. I sold my first 2 unique luxs and voluntary entered into unhappiness for 5 turns, time for the 3rd worker to improve another copper tile to the left. Better get extra gold more earlier then really try to stay happy. Next turn i will rush a granary in capital and send the first caravan. But to which city? The oldest one.(Nineveh) Usually. Because he can finish his library faster and work on something else ASAP.

Spoiler :


So here is Nineveh with a whopping +8 fpt on turn 54.

Spoiler :


And finally turn 60 with libraries under construction and enough gold to rush buy another worker if wanted. Nineveh will surpass the capital eventually. But 2 unique luxs only is a bit harsh but with some allied cs and lux for lux trades you can go away with something good anyway especially under Tradition where free happiness is more abundant early on.

Spoiler :


That's it for now, i will surely edit this post over and over(adding pictures, etc) for some time, some of you might want to suggest other or similar starts. So check for updates often :)
 
Interesting. I was just experimenting with a similar idea as Indonesia on an archipelago. Get 3 cities going like you described (more or less) then punch out 3 more to go offshore. Worked well on prince/king.
 
Hi Tabarnak,

based upon your GnK Tradition thread i also focussed mainly on a tradition approach.

I am a bit strapped for time right now, so i will elaborate on some points a bit later.

First, my build order in cap is VERY similar to yours, i tend though to build an archer or 2 before the 2nd caravan, cap is usually able to produce those in 4 turns at that point.

First caravan goes for food, I concur that this is better than a 3 gpt deal with a CS.

Now I have a few points where i am not really sure:

a) i tend to get NC latish with this approach (around T90), as i got to build 3 libraries in the cities, no money to rush those on top, not all decent spots have a good hammer production (e.g. Morocco spawns often in areas with loads of desert and flood plains, gives a lot of natural growth, but hammers might be scarce)
b)i am for the moment no fan to steal workers, the warmonger hit is pretty impressive for the moment
c) military is very weak, last 2 games i spawned next to Shaka, and the strategy does not work here, he spams settlers like a madman and is generally very aggro, so you got to declare on him around T 60 with a 4-5 archers and some melee

Pat

PS great guide by the way, don't want to sound negative with my post
 
That's what I did in my last game, it works pretty good.

Why do you guys buy workers btw?
Steal 1 from CS 1 from neighbor 1 produced = 3 workers.
Enough for a 3 city start, the following ones you get from conquered cities.

Not a critique just wondering.
 
What's great about getting a couple cities up really fast in BNW is that you can quickly get a couple caravans from your capital to take food to those cities (if you aren't in debt, which you can get out of by selling horses, or excess luxuries). The food trade routes are amazing.
 
Why do you guys buy workers btw?
Steal 1 from CS 1 from neighbor 1 produced = 3 workers.
Enough for a 3 city start, the following ones you get from conquered cities.

Now besides the fact that I don't like doing this to a CS (feels like an exploit as you have no intention to conquer him), I feel that the warmonger hit for a game where you want to be peaceful (i.e. not going for domination or a disguised domination victory) is pretty steep. In the games where i declared war (no matter if CS or other civ), other civs consider me a warmonger and even though they are still willing to pay for luxes and starts (top dollar btw), you cannot get any other kind of relationship going (white open border is difficult, forget DoF and all which is now attached to the DoF,…). The warmongering penalty seems to last forever once you have conquered a city or 2.
 
Now besides the fact that I don't like doing this to a CS (feels like an exploit as you have no intention to conquer him), I feel that the warmonger hit for a game where you want to be peaceful (i.e. not going for domination or a disguised domination victory) is pretty steep. In the games where i declared war (no matter if CS or other civ), other civs consider me a warmonger and even though they are still willing to pay for luxes and starts (top dollar btw), you cannot get any other kind of relationship going (white open border is difficult, forget DoF and all which is now attached to the DoF,…). The warmongering penalty seems to last forever once you have conquered a city or 2.

Penalty for DoWing a CS and a Civ goes away in 100 turns maximum.
500 points of penalty, -5 per turn.
Then you consider:
- Embassy -1 per turn
- DoF with friend -15
- Trade, up to -30
and more stuff

It will be most likely all over by the time you build NC.
 
Is there some qualification necessary before you can send food from capital?
I have a second city 6 tiles away and 2 CS within 10 tiles but the only options for my first caravan are the two CS.

Edit: it's the granary. Just bought a granary the same turn and the option to send food to second city appears.
 
Is there some qualification necessary before you can send food from capital?
I have a second city 6 tiles away and 2 CS within 10 tiles but the only options for my first caravan are the two CS.

Edit: it's the granary. Just bought a granary the same turn and the option to send food to second city appears.
Yes, it's the granary to send food, and the workshop to send production.
 
Penalty for DoWing a CS and a Civ goes away in 100 turns maximum.
500 points of penalty, -5 per turn.
Then you consider:
- Embassy -1 per turn
- DoF with friend -15
- Trade, up to -30
and more stuff

It will be most likely all over by the time you build NC.

I did not know that. I suppose you had a look at the code? I don't want to hijack the thread, but in my current game, went to war with Shaka on T60, so it should go away somewhere between 130 and 150 for the civs where you trade and stuff? DoF with friends won't work, they all consider me a warmonger….
Anyway, thx for posting the math behind
 
I tried this opening and played it for 95 turns. My only real problem with it is the barbarians. I had to interrupt the suggested flow of techs to build Archery, and then I had to build a couple of archers. The problem was that, until I did so, I couldn't defend my tile improvements. Barbs kept showing up and burning things down, and it isn't enough to just fight them off. You have to go out and destroy their camps, 'cause they'll just get stronger and more annoying.
 
I tried this opening and played it for 95 turns. My only real problem with it is the barbarians. I had to interrupt the suggested flow of techs to build Archery, and then I had to build a couple of archers. The problem was that, until I did so, I couldn't defend my tile improvements. Barbs kept showing up and burning things down, and it isn't enough to just fight them off. You have to go out and destroy their camps, 'cause they'll just get stronger and more annoying.

This is also my experience. This seems really nice if you can get it in reasonable time, but barbs have prevented me so far on Emperor. On Immortal it was going okay until Attila showed up slightly after I got the caravans. His pikes didn't face much resistance I'm afraid. I guess neighboring him isn't the best circumstance for prioritizing early infrastructure, but I had yet to see what he was up to in BNW. Now I know, never seen him have pikes that early before (early 80s). Still I really wanna see just how strong this opener is.
 
barbarians are not "the problem" -> they are a gift ( you need a few military units early to kill barbs inside city state borders and a bit later to complete"bust the barb camp" quests for influence) ..

for the "pros" this becomes so natural (constant every game) they don't even mention it anymore
 
Penalty for DoWing a CS and a Civ goes away in 100 turns maximum.
500 points of penalty, -5 per turn.
Then you consider:
- Embassy -1 per turn
- DoF with friend -15
- Trade, up to -30
and more stuff

It will be most likely all over by the time you build NC.

You sure that's how it works? I'm pretty sure the first DoW is still "free" so stealing off 1 worker is always fine, but the second gives you a penalty that does not go away.
 
Do you really pick LE before Monarchy when hard building two settlers? :confused:

Food can give you extra hammers while building settlers if you dont work mines exclusively. Getting good growth in capital is primordial because he stayed for a long time at 3 or 4 :c5citizen:. If you go Monarchy first you will not get LE in time when settlers are finished. If you go Monarchy first make sure to hit an early culture ruin.

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About barbs : Sometimes they just are too annoying i agree. Add an extra scout or 2 before and/or between settlers if you really don't feel safe. If you hit an upgrade ruin it can surely be easier.
 
This is a pretty strong opening. In my game I got four cities up to 10+ pop by turn 90.
 
barbarians are not "the problem" -> they are a gift ( you need a few military units early to kill barbs inside city state borders and a bit later to complete"bust the barb camp" quests for influence) ..

for the "pros" this becomes so natural (constant every game) they don't even mention it anymore

The OP clearly states that early military is ignored. Archery is drastically delayed and no warrior is present in the suggested build order. Right now I'm doing this with archery after first lux and picking Monarchy before Landed Elite so I can stay a bit more safe. I seem to get swarmed by barbs when strictly following the guide. Now I realize you have to adjust to circumstances but I still thought it'd be fun to see what happened if I stayed on the exact same path. Didn't really work out for me.
 
Food can give you extra hammers while building settlers if you dont work mines exclusively. Getting good growth in capital is primordial because he stayed for a long time at 3 or 4 :c5citizen:. If you go Monarchy first you will not get LE in time when settlers are finished. If you go Monarchy first make sure to hit an early culture ruin.

I've been feeling the difference now. On some starts I didn't really have the hammers to hard build two settlers but went for it anyway. For me this meant LE stayed ineffective for a very long time, but I guess this strategy isn't suited for when hammers are terribly low.
 
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