Trafalgar (Napoleon Improved) - Advice Requested

[handofthrawn1844]

Hey everyone,
I can't upload the high-res image here, so please view the image on github: https://github.com/benskywalker/Trafalgar/blob/main/Trafalgar/Images/Trafalgar.png

I'm looking for some input on my map / scenario called Trafalgar. It's based on the Napoleonic Europe scenario, but with a lot of improvements and changes.
I wanted to address a few main issues with the vanilla Napoleonic Europe scenario:

1. France is extremely powerful (even more than I believe it should be
2. Naval power is meaningless
3. Small countries aren't fun to play
4. The unit roster is lacking
5. Technologies don't matter much (except Advanced Tactics and Artillery Tactics)
6. Islands and North Africa are present but meaningless
7. Artillery has no unit diversity. The Grand Battery is simply much stronger than the cannon, with no unique strategies
8. The game doesn't feel as though it takes place in 1800; it lacks relevant feel and technology

My primary changes involve:

• An increased map size that includes Egypt, more of the Ottoman Empire, more of Russia, and (populated) Mediterranean islands
• Two new civs: Egypt and the Barbary Pirates (the Barbary Pirates have an extremely fun playstyle)
• Every country has some sort of guard unit (Line Infantry, with 5/5 +1 hp)
• Significant increase in unit roster, with custom units for almost every country. More to come
• Four types of cavalry: Line Cavalry (base 5/2/2 cavalry), Light Lancer (3/2/3), Dragoon (5/5/2), and Shock Cavalry (8/2/2)
  • Most countries have some custom version of one or more of these
    • For example, the Ottomans have Akinci, which is a 2/2/4 light lancer, as well as their base-game Sipahi
  • Cavalry Tactics unlocks Shock Cavalry, while Nationalism unlocks Dragoons
• Added Marines and corsairs (unique unit for Egypt and the Barbary Pirates)
• Added more ship types (Gunboats for coast defense, sloops for scouting, and cutters for armored transports)
• Added factories and railroads in new technologies
• Added new artillery types
  • Grand Batteries now have lethal bombardment
  • Horse artillery is weaker than Grand Battery but has 2 movement
  • Howitzers are weaker but have 2 range
  • Congreve Rockets are weaker still but have 3 range
  • Artillery are listed in order of cost
• There are more cities on the map for higher detail and more fun playing smaller countries
• I've adjusted borders, especially in the Balkans and Poland, in an attempt to be more historical
• Russia now extends further east than Moscow, which is important considering that Napoleon took Moscow but failed to take Russia.
• I have incorporated Rhye's terrain graphics

Now for the questions.

1. Do you have any interest in playing this map? It's not ready for release yet, but it could be soon. Please let me know if anyone wants to play this, and I'll upload it as soon as it is ready.
2. Any suggestions about areas to add, edit, or take away? (See poll)
3. Any resource types you would like to see added?
4. Any other feature changes you would like to see?
5. What unique units would you like to add? Here is the current list of all new / significantly modified units (grouped by type):
   1. Marines:
      1. Marine
      2. Corsair
   2. Guard Infantry:
      1. Line Infantry
      2. Grenadier
      3. Hessian Rifleman (I got the idea of this from another forum about Napoleonic Europe. I'll try to find it and give credit.
      4. Nizam-I Cedid
      5. Savolaks
   3. Ships:
      1. Gunboat
      2. Raider
      3. Cutter
      4. Sloop
   4. Artillery:
      1. Howitzer
      2. Horse Artillery
      3. Congreve Rockets
   5. Other Infantry:
      1. Miquelet
   6. Cavalry
      1. Light cavalry:
         1. Light Lancer
         2. Akinci
         3. Lancer
         4. Chasseur
      2. Line Cavalry:
         1. Line Cavalry (vanilla Cavalry)
         2. Carabinier
         3. Horse Guards
      3. Dragoons:
         1. Dragoon
         2. Royal Dragoon
         3. Horse Grenadier
      4. Shock Cavalry
         1. Generic shock cavalry (8/2/2)
         2. Guard Cavalry (French Imperial Cavalry)
         3. Household cavalry
      5. Musketmen:
         1. Indelta
         2. Sekhban
      6. Musket Infantry:
         1. Varvade
         2. Janissaries
6. Please let me know if you have any interest in working on this. I am happy to add people on Github if there's any desire to collaborate

 

[handofthrawn1844]

The high res image of the map is too large for this thread but you can find it here on github: https://github.com/benskywalker/Trafalgar/blob/main/Trafalgar/Images/Trafalgar.png

Here is the territory map

 

[Ozymandias]

Hey everyone,
I can't upload the high-res image here, so please view the image on github: https://github.com/benskywalker/Trafalgar/blob/main/Trafalgar/Images/Trafalgar.png

First off: brilliant map!

I'm looking for some input on my map / scenario called Trafalgar. It's based on the Napoleonic Europe scenario, but with a lot of improvements and changes.
I wanted to address a few main issues with the vanilla Napoleonic Europe scenario:

1. France is extremely powerful (even more than I believe it should be

So: either reduce French A/D -OR- import @Civinator's brilliant "Advanced Auto-Production." (Hey, if you're going to mod - mod )

1. Naval power is meaningless

Yeah, that's a tough one I'm not sure if @Flintlock's Patch has been able to help address this (I've not had time to keep up ) (1) the AI is clueless about Aircraft Carriers (OK, not really a problem in 1812 ) (2) You can try disabling the whole "Escort/Requires Escort" thing

1. Small countries aren't fun to play

They never are: make them all Non-Player Civs.

1. The unit roster is lacking

So fix it.

1. Technologies don't matter much (except Advanced Tactics and Artillery Tactics)

Later on, we can talk about this.

1. Islands and North Africa are present but meaningless

So get rid of them, in whatever appropriate fashion you deem fit.

1. Artillery has no unit diversity. The Grand Battery is simply much stronger than the cannon, with no unique strategies

Again: fix it. And use Flintlock's path, which makes artillery actually behave like artillery.

1. The game doesn't feel as though it takes place in 1800; it lacks relevant feel and technology

Yeah ... again: later on.

My primary changes involve:

• An increased map size that includes Egypt, more of the Ottoman Empire, more of Russia, and (populated) Mediterranean islands
• Two new civs: Egypt and the Barbary Pirates (the Barbary Pirates have an extremely fun playstyle)
• Every country has some sort of guard unit (Line Infantry, with 5/5 +1 hp)
• Significant increase in unit roster, with custom units for almost every country. More to come
• Four types of cavalry: Line Cavalry (base 5/2/2 cavalry), Light Lancer (3/2/3), Dragoon (5/5/2), and Shock Cavalry (8/2/2)
  • Most countries have some custom version of one or more of these
    • For example, the Ottomans have Akinci, which is a 2/2/4 light lancer, as well as their base-game Sipahi
  • Cavalry Tactics unlocks Shock Cavalry, while Nationalism unlocks Dragoons
• Added Marines and corsairs (unique unit for Egypt and the Barbary Pirates)
• Added more ship types (Gunboats for coast defense, sloops for scouting, and cutters for armored transports)
• Added factories and railroads in new technologies
• Added new artillery types
  • Grand Batteries now have lethal bombardment
  • Horse artillery is weaker than Grand Battery but has 2 movement
  • Howitzers are weaker but have 2 range
  • Congreve Rockets are weaker still but have 3 range
  • Artillery are listed in order of cost
• There are more cities on the map for higher detail and more fun playing smaller countries
• I've adjusted borders, especially in the Balkans and Poland, in an attempt to be more historical
• Russia now extends further east than Moscow, which is important considering that Napoleon took Moscow but failed to take Russia.
• I have incorporated Rhye's terrain graphics

So you did change this stuff ... All, all my research and advice joke

Now for the questions.

1. Do you have any interest in playing this map? It's not ready for release yet, but it could be soon. Please let me know if anyone wants to play this, and I'll upload it as soon as it is ready.

1. What unique units would you like to add? Here is the current list of all new / significantly modified units (grouped by type):
   1. Marines:
      1. Marine
      2. Corsair
   2. Guard Infantry:
      1. Line Infantry
      2. Grenadier
      3. Hessian Rifleman

(Remember: King George II was from Hanover.)

1. Nizam-I Cedid
2. Savolaks

Remember that bit about "Small Countries?"

1. Ships:
   1. Gunboat
   2. Raider
   3. Cutter
   4. Sloop

@timerover51 is our encyclopedic naval expert. Ask him - actually, I just did .

• Artillery:
  1. Howitzer
  2. Horse Artillery
  3. Congreve Rockets
• Other Infantry:
  1. Miquelet
• Cavalry
  1. Light cavalry:
     1. Light Lancer
     2. Akinci
     3. Lancer
     4. Chasseur
  2. Line Cavalry:
     1. Line Cavalry (vanilla Cavalry)
     2. Carabinier
     3. Horse Guards
  3. Dragoons:
     1. Dragoon
     2. Royal Dragoon
     3. Horse Grenadier
  4. Shock Cavalry
     1. Generic shock cavalry (8/2/2)
     2. Guard Cavalry (French Imperial Cavalry)
     3. Household cavalry

Yes.

• Musketmen:
  1. Indelta
  2. Sekhban
• Musket Infantry:
  1. Varvade (a Swedish unit, organized in Poland??)

... Repeat after me:"Small Countries."

Janissaries

If you have the Ottoman Empire in play - Absolutely.

Now, lastly, Swap out Units! Go HERE & just start scrolling down ...

 

[handofthrawn1844]

First off: brilliant map!

So: either reduce French A/D -OR- import @Civinator's brilliant "Advanced Auto-Production." (Hey, if you're going to mod - mod )

Yeah, that's a tough one I'm not sure if @Flintlock's Patch has been able to help address this (I've not had time to keep up ) (1) the AI is clueless about Aircraft Carriers (OK, not really a problem in 1812 ) (2) You can try disabling the whole "Escort/Requires Escort" thing

They never are: make them all Non-Player Civs.

So fix it.

Later on, we can talk about this.

So get rid of them, in whatever appropriate fashion you deem fit.

Again: fix it. And use Flintlock's path, which makes artillery actually behave like artillery.

Yeah ... again: later on.

So you did change this stuff ... All, all my research and advice joke



(Remember: King George II was from Hanover.)

Remember that bit about "Small Countries?"

@timerover51 is our encyclopedic naval expert. Ask him - actually, I just did .

Yes.

... Repeat after me:"Small Countries."

If you have the Ottoman Empire in play - Absolutely.

Now, lastly, Swap out Units! Go HERE & just start scrolling down ...

Thank you for all this feedback! I've made a lot more changes too and you can view the post of the scenario here. You're very much right about small countries, so I've refrained from adding any small ones like southern Germany or Switzerland. I have tested out Sweden and found it very fun!

 

[Ozymandias]

One great thing about this map/mod and your enthusiasm for it (" Sweden [...] is very fun! is that - given the massive amount of Units which imperator1961 made, it should be pleasantly engaging to slip back in time a bit to, say, the 7 Years War or the Great Northern War ... Pretty much anytime back to 1648.

 

[handofthrawn1844]

One great thing about this map/mod and your enthusiasm for it (" Sweden [...] is very fun! is that - given the massive amount of Units which imperator1961 made, it should be pleasantly engaging to slip back in time a bit to, say, the 7 Years War or the Great Northern War ... Pretty much anytime back to 1648.

Absolutely. There are so many units out there I didn't use yet, and they specify time period. The hardest think is map selection and getting the proper scale, but that should be doable for the Seven Years War and the War of the Spanish Succession

 

[timerover51]

I will need to look at the standard Napoleonic Scenario before commenting extensively on this, but here are a few quick comments, including the naval ships.

First off: brilliant map!

So: either reduce French A/D -OR- import @Civinator's brilliant "Advanced Auto-Production." (Hey, if you're going to mod - mod )

Yeah, that's a tough one I'm not sure if @Flintlock's Patch has been able to help address this (I've not had time to keep up ) (1) the AI is clueless about Aircraft Carriers (OK, not really a problem in 1812 ) (2) You can try disabling the whole "Escort/Requires Escort" thing

They never are: make them all Non-Player Civs.

So fix it.

Later on, we can talk about this.

So get rid of them, in whatever appropriate fashion you deem fit.

Again: fix it. And use Flintlock's path, which makes artillery actually behave like artillery.

Yeah ... again: later on.

So you did change this stuff ... All, all my research and advice joke



(Remember: King George II was from Hanover.)

George the First was from Hanover. George the Third was the king during the Napoleonic Period, but was troubled towards the end with bouts of insanity. He was born in England, and his primary language was English, unlike his grandfather, who never learned English, and his father who spoke it with difficulty.

Remember that bit about "Small Countries?"

@timerover51 is our encyclopedic naval expert. Ask him - actually, I just did .

Yes.

... Repeat after me:"Small Countries."

If you have the Ottoman Empire in play - Absolutely.

Now, lastly, Swap out Units! Go HERE & just start scrolling down ...

As for the ships, forget the Gunboats. Those were basically harbor defense craft, with a single heavy gun, fixed to fire forward, in the bow, and oar-powered. As for raiders, specific ships for that really did not exist. For that, the French used naval frigates, while the British merchant ships carried some armament along with Letters of Marque allowing them to capture enemy vessels if they came across any. If you include the United States in the game, they did use a lot of privateers, with a focus on fast, lightly armed schooners. Cutters were small, typically single-masted, lightly armed ships, primarily focused on policing the smugglers, of which there were many. Sloops were one notch below the Frigate, carrying around 20 guns, and used a lot for convoy escort and anti-privateer patrols, so they could be in the game. For raiders, just use the standard privateer, and not bother with the other two. I should state that the combat power of all of the naval units in the game is a joke, and should be much higher. You might want to take a look at my Naval Mod to get a better idea.

Timerover51 Naval Mod

Since I have posted my modding philosophy in the General Discussion Forum, I thought that I might as well start posting some of the mods that I have made for various reasons. This one is focuses on reworking virtually all of the naval units in the game to a greater or lessor degree. The...

forums.civfanatics.com

Some other comments.
Do not bother with Egypt. Napoleon invaded it in 1798, and took over from the Mamelukes. The British then responded, and took it from the French in 1800, and returned it to the control of the Ottoman Empire.

The Spanish were allied with the French from 1795 to 1808, when Napoleon basically kidnapped the Spanish royal family and appointed his brother Jerome as king following the French over-running most of the country. The Spanish took strong exception to this, and started the Spanish revolt. They allied with the British, and the infamous "Spanish Ulcer" began.

The Netherlands were taken over by the French in 1795, and were allied with the French from then on, basically as a French puppet state. Therefore, they should not be viewed as really an independent state.

Russia bickered quite a bit with Sweden and the Ottoman Empire during this period, and took a fair chunk of territory from the Swedes. Napoleon did try to trigger another war between the Turks and the Russians just prior to his invasion of Russia. Sweden was off and on allied with France, and in 1808 invited Marshall Bernadotte to become their Crown Prince. Once King, Bernadotte soon realized that Sweden needed trade with Britain more than anything France could offer, and in 1812 basically joined the British coalition, and quit bickering with Russia.

Congreve Rockets were useful for setting fire to cities and bombarding forts (see Copenhagen and Fort McHenry "the rockets red glare") They also could damage the morale of troops not used to them, but really were not that useful, unless you want to burn a city down. (Note, that action did not start with World War Two.)

You really should add America to the game, courtesy of the War of 1812. The American privateers and navy wrought havoc with British commerce, and drove insurances for merchant ships between Ireland and England up to a ruinous 10 per cent. The U.S. Navy brig Argus captured 19 ships in 30 days in the Irish Channel alone. Wellington was quite ticked off with the Royal Navy at not protecting his supply ships from England to Spain from privateers. Then there was the diversion of troops and supplies from Spain to Canada, which also did not make him happy. Then there was the war between the U.S. and the Barbary pirates in 1803 to 1805, from whence the U.S. Marines get "to the shores of Tripoli".

The Russians never had any Jaegar units, those were Prussian and Austrian. Austria did have a few units armed with Air Rifles, that were comparable to the standard musket, but had no powder smoke signature, so were great for snipers. You should give the British a few rifle units using the Baker rifle.

I will see about more comments as I go along. Whoever developed the Napoleonic War scenario for the Conquest game should have spent at least a minimal amount of time reading up on the various wars and coalitions. Basically, Austria, Prussia, and Spain were at times allies and enemies of France. Russia was either an enemy or neutral, but was heavily dependent on trade with Britain, so was not happy with Napoleon's "Continental System".

 

[timerover51]

Absolutely. There are so many units out there I didn't use yet, and they specify time period. The hardest think is map selection and getting the proper scale, but that should be doable for the Seven Years War and the War of the Spanish Succession

For some maps, you might want to look up Napoleon on Project Gutenberg, as there are some histories with good maps, especially of Spain and of Russia.

 

[Ozymandias]

George the First was from Hanover. George the Third was the king during the Napoleonic Period, but was troubled towards the end with bouts of insanity. He was born in England, and his primary language was English, unlike his grandfather, who never learned English, and his father who spoke it with difficulty.

TY! - I'd entirely forgotten about the movie The Madness Of King George; Just recall Chico Marx's famous words, "There is no Sanity Claus."