Tragic Dilemmas - BE vs EU4 addon

[MadDjinn]

MadDjinn
[...]

It wasn't about that they test MP internally (LAN). That just makes people question their ability to understand the real world (not LAN) functional issues.

He made disparaging comments [edited] wrt to the community.

Basically, he got his ego a bit too big and snapped on the forums. No one actually baited him to say those things, but since then, people have been trying, I agree.

I do also agree that a growing portion of the community is turning against Paradox due to their more recent DLC/patches and discussion on the forums have generally degenerated to the point of hardly worth hanging out there. They've been losing their 'good faith' with the community due to their actions. They may be able to recover with Wiz leading things now, but we'll have to see.

 

[Kutuzov]

Heh heh. Well, he certainly isn't the only developer with a big ego. I remember one of BFC's designers making a rather nasty post about his community too a while back but the community shrugged it off and just accepted it as one of his idiosyncrasies. The Paradox community are not quite as mature or forgiving. I'm sure Paradox will weather the storm though.

And yes, the EU4 boards are a horrible place nowadays. Personally, I blame Steam achievements (NOT Steam though. I like Steam!)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

yeah, you obviously are confused as to what your own statement means.

AoW will be broken from day 1, require a hotfix to implement functionality that didn't exist when they sold it (this has happened recently) and will break the game for those that didn't buy the DLC (also has happened consistently).

They also, thanks to Johan, have made their position on the community quite obvious. Or are you ignoring Johan's tirade against the community and how he belittled it?

So while people may come and BS about BE being 'just a reskin', at least it'll work. It'll have issues, but that's what happens these days apparently. "Just a reskin" is stated by those who have no clue and didn't bother to look at what has been built. It isn't 'SMAC/X' ported to a new engine, so therefore it's got to be bad.

Unlike the Paradox dev (aside from Wiz when he's allowed by Johan), the Firaxis Dev *do* listen to the community (proof is recent with changes suggested by the community in the last few months that got added before launch!), they *do* fix the game post-launch (Paradox does one hotfix for their DLC, regardless of if the rest is broken - while Firaxis patches over and over again and adds functionality and doesn't break the game when adding new DLC for those who didn't buy it), and they *do* aim to make a good game with reasonable gameplay rules that fit the context.


edit:

To everyone else, this isn't a statement on AoW vs. BE.

AoW looks like it might add some nice things (map and a few other changes) but it's still too early to see how screwed up they'll make the game before a hotfix is added. Proceed carefully in all cases.

I'll inevitably have both, so it's not like I'm saying it's one over the other.

No doubt, I don't want to turn this too much into a slander PI thing, I'm clear enough on those boards with how PI has screwed up many times (including awfully inaccurate patch notes and devs telling players wrong things directly multiple times, and even a few instances of legit objective non-conforming good status, some that persist), but suffice it to say neither PI nor Firaxis has been free of serious errors with their games, especially the first year after release. Like Mad, I'll be back for BE and have both to play regularly, as there aren't any modern strategy games that I've played that give them a serious push, and it's not like there isn't fun to be had.

 

[winddysphere]

yeah, you obviously are confused as to what your own statement means.

AoW will be broken from day 1, require a hotfix to implement functionality that didn't exist when they sold it (this has happened recently) and will break the game for those that didn't buy the DLC (also has happened consistently).

They also, thanks to Johan, have made their position on the community quite obvious. Or are you ignoring Johan's tirade against the community and how he belittled it?

So while people may come and BS about BE being 'just a reskin', at least it'll work. It'll have issues, but that's what happens these days apparently. "Just a reskin" is stated by those who have no clue and didn't bother to look at what has been built. It isn't 'SMAC/X' ported to a new engine, so therefore it's got to be bad.

Unlike the Paradox dev (aside from Wiz when he's allowed by Johan), the Firaxis Dev *do* listen to the community (proof is recent with changes suggested by the community in the last few months that got added before launch!), they *do* fix the game post-launch (Paradox does one hotfix for their DLC, regardless of if the rest is broken - while Firaxis patches over and over again and adds functionality and doesn't break the game when adding new DLC for those who didn't buy it), and they *do* aim to make a good game with reasonable gameplay rules that fit the context.


edit:

To everyone else, this isn't a statement on AoW vs. BE.

AoW looks like it might add some nice things (map and a few other changes) but it's still too early to see how screwed up they'll make the game before a hotfix is added. Proceed carefully in all cases.

I'll inevitably have both, so it's not like I'm saying it's one over the other.

I think any dev WILL make at least one bug. It's up to dev to take care of them or not. I saw most Korean online game in some countries never take care of it. Also,Gear**x is even worse than Paradox and Firaxis. They know the bugs and serious exploit like the Bee but never take care of them. In my opinion both Firaxis and Paradox will fix them...just can't fix them swiftly.

 

[Gintoki89]

Immeasurably looking forward to Civ BE, and I would be really into EU4 but I've never been able to wrap my head around all the mechanics. Sorry if this might be kind of off topic, but can anyone point me to a good very-much-beginners guide to EU4 to get me started?

 

[Browd]

As with most games, watching some LPs is the best way to learn. DDRJake and Arumba are pretty good "explainers." Be sure you are watching a fairly recent LP, since the game mechanics change with each patch/DLC.

 

[WiseGreen]

As with most games, watching some LPs is the best way to learn. DDRJake and Arumba are pretty good "explainers." Be sure you are watching a fairly recent LP, since the game mechanics change with each patch/DLC.

I'd rather go with Quill18 rather than DDRJake if I was starting EU4. Watching DDRJake play is like watching someone disassembling a microwave and making a lightsaber and a laser rifle out of it - he's always out to do the most broken thing he can with the game, he takes every cap the game imposes to the player as a personal challenge, and if you don't have some grasp of the basic mechanics it'll look as something arcane to you. But once you know enough to keep up, it's fun as hell to watch

 

[MadDjinn]

As with most games, watching some LPs is the best way to learn. DDRJake and Arumba are pretty good "explainers." Be sure you are watching a fairly recent LP, since the game mechanics change with each patch/DLC.

well, maybe not DDRJake right away. Since he tends to go deep into the mechanics and abuse them for everything they're worth. Would be worth watching after you get some basics down.

Shenryyr, Quill, Arumba, Northernlion and a few others have EUIV LP's out their as their 'primary' game. I've got some as well. Marbozir and a long list of others also do EUIV LPs.

though, AoW is going to change a lot of basic mechanics, so.. take everything with an eye to the fact that it'll change soon.

 

[Browd]

That's fair. Jake does tend to MacGyver the game, but seeing what you can do with the game does accelerate your learning curve.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

well, maybe not DDRJake right away. Since he tends to go deep into the mechanics and abuse them for everything they're worth. Would be worth watching after you get some basics down.

Shenryyr, Quill, Arumba, Northernlion and a few others have EUIV LP's out their as their 'primary' game. I've got some as well. Marbozir and a long list of others also do EUIV LPs.

though, AoW is going to change a lot of basic mechanics, so.. take everything with an eye to the fact that it'll change soon.

Mad you hater. I run a Mongolia LP for great khan and you don't even mention me. The obvious conclusion is to orchestrate a giant dogpile over this.

 

[Magean]

When and where did Johan post that spiteful tirade ? On what forum of paradoxplaza ? I'd like to read it and I'm ready to search, but I don't know where to begin.

 

[MadDjinn]

Mad you hater. I run a Mongolia LP for great khan and you don't even mention me. The obvious conclusion is to orchestrate a giant dogpile over this.

wasn't sure if you were still making videos

'lots of Lpers'

@Magean - the thread in question, if not just the post, got removed from the forum, as far as I remember.

edit: it did but can be found on reddit.

 

[Magean]

Thanks. Is that what you're referring to ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2awrx1/johan_andersson_of_paradox_interactive_responds/

EDIT : don't forget that Johan is famous for his explosive anger outbreaks and can be assertive beyond his own point.

EDIT 2 : I subscribed to Pdox forums in January 2008 and saw a gradual increase in the number of forum members, some being die-hard EU2 veterans who just hadn't joined the forum already, others being new players. But, with EU4 - and CK2 too - the amount of real newcomers increased a lot. Like, when browsing EU4s forums, I see much more recent (2013 or 2014) accounts than I used to. This had also led to some people criticising while they had never experienced the former development model of PDS, and how they have improved in the past few years.


Back to the topic, I've preordered Beyond Earth and will wait a bit for AoW.

First, from next Friday on, I'm on holiday for a week. So, obviously, Beyond Earth's release date suits my timetable much better than AoW.

Also, I suspect the former will be in better shape right after release than the latter. Civ V vanilla was a bit of a mess, but the engine was brand new and the devs had to cope with huge changes in the game's design philosophy. G&K as well as BNW were pretty much clean on release day. Well, they may have had debatable balance choices (I resent so much the anti-wide and anti-early wars approach of BNW), but they worked. Beyond Earth is a bigger challenge and will surely have some annoying bugs early on, but I trust the devs to limit their number.

AoW on the other hand... as much as I think Paradox has improved, their games are still on a 2-to-4 weeks beta after a big patch is out with an expansion. And, with changes so huge as those of AoW and the accompanying patch, as well as an unexpectedly early release date... I fear it'll be a huge mess.

 

[MadDjinn]

Thanks. Is that what you're referring to ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2awrx1/johan_andersson_of_paradox_interactive_responds/

Also, I suspect the former will be in better shape right after release than the latter. Civ V vanilla was a bit of a mess, but the engine was brand new and the devs had to cope with huge changes in the game's design philosophy. G&K as well as BNW were pretty much clean on release day. Well, they may have had debatable balance choices (I resent so much the anti-wide and anti-early wars approach of BNW), but they worked. Beyond Earth is a bigger challenge and will surely have some annoying bugs early on, but I trust the devs to limit their number.

AoW on the other hand... as much as I think Paradox has improved, their games are still on a 2-to-4 weeks beta after a big patch is out with an expansion. And, with changes so huge as those of AoW and the accompanying patch, as well as an unexpectedly early release date... I fear it'll be a huge mess.

yes that's the reddit thread in question.

I do expect BE to be more stable than CivV vanilla, with the usual balance issues (even G&K and BNW needed patches). But it'll work.

for AoW... what concerns me the most is how they make patches/DLCs. They don't separate the code effectively so that buying the DLC, or not, has no effect on the patched maingame. This has led to a few hotfixes in the more recent DLC.

and well, as per the previous two major DLC... what is the feature (or multiple) that got changed/added that they won't tell us about? They definitely seem to avoid mentioning major feature changes that would likely upset the community pre-patch. This ofc, has led to it's own 'game' post-patch of 'find the changes'.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

When and where did Johan post that spiteful tirade ? On what forum of paradoxplaza ? I'd like to read it and I'm ready to search, but I don't know where to begin.

It was a thread I started, and it was deleted. TBH, despite that I very often argue against PI I feel that the community as a whole blew that thread out of proportion, though PI did handle it a bit poorly.

 

[Karmah]

oh god the polycast gang is in town

 

[Makavcio]

Art of War of course. At least Paradox knows how to fix most of their game flaws and in constant contact with the community.

You've got to be kidding me. I really don't want to be hating on you but my dear sir, you are a liar. I preordered the game and wasn't able to finish a single game so far because each and every time a game-crashing bug pops up and just ruins my game.

Moderator Action: Calling another poster a "liar" is never justifiable. Please watch your tone.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

In my first game, right after release, saves become broken after the most dire errors in code were patched. Had to abandon my game.

Next game was nice until my ships decided not to patrol trade nodes anymore for longer than 3 days before abandoning their posts.

Another game just started crashing for no apparent reason at a fixed date.

Somewhere around this point, i tried to play an ironman game that after 4 or 5 sessions decided to get broken and just stopped being an ironman game. Just because.

Another game, already with Conquest of Paradise, generated a world where I couldn't manage trade centers because of a ridiculous malfunction of the game that placed outgoing trade routes so they overlapped. One steering choice was below some others in the game's interface and I couldn't change where my trade was being steered.

In another game, random New World at some point simply defaulted to standard New World, thus creating a motley of colonies and states. Unplayable madness.

In my last attempt, saves files at some point simply become "incompatible". No patches were released, I was using no mods... Nothing. It was impossible to load these saves.

Each and every time I uploaded my saves to their forum and some "community manager" informed me that they are aware of these errors but no solution has been devised yet. All these errors are still occurring for many players.


Paradox Interactive is the worst game developer that ever existed. One of my biggest dreams concerning gaming is that someone like Firaxis takes over Europa Universalis and creates a game that lives up to its potential. For the love of FSM, you need mods to make game fonts readable without a telescope!

And I don't even want to go into the issue that there's a DLC for everything in EU4, almost like in the Sims. In EU5 we'll have to buy special DLCs to play in color and to unlock sounds.

Don't give them any more money, please.