Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor

[Bede]

@o-p, it's the first line of his post.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

thanks bede. (you know I have seen this exact progression of posts in other succession games at least a couple of times. I never thought I'd make the same mistake)

 

[peacemonger]

what's the roster now? if i'm up, "got it" pending discussion and if i'm not, then never mind

 

[Rik Meleet]

Japan 3 Monarchy
Greece 102 Currency, Republic, Monarchy
Russia 3 Currency, Republic, Monarchy
Germany 2 Currency, Republic, Down Construction
Spain 8 Currency, Republic, Monarchy
Korea 10 Republic, Down Polytheism, Construction
Dutch 44 Currency, Republic, Monarchy

Decide to trade now:
Trade Germany Currency&2gold for Construction
Trade Korea Republic for Construction&161gold
Trade Japan Monarchy for Republic&4gold
We are now in Middle Ages

1: What do we want ?
There are 4 civs in the middle ages. We want to be there. But we also want good trades. And we want another thing: knowledge. Knowledge of what MA techs are known to who.
And we want Republic; for our new Government.

2: dl's trade.
Step 1: We used our construction to obtain Germany's currency.
As Currency is urgently needed to get to the MA this was a good first step. An alternative is to get both Germany's curreny and The Republic, but that would have cost us gpt or cash. And that isn't needed as Korea has the republic, but lacks Poly + Construction (and soon also Currency).
The trade was maximised; Germany couldn't or didn't want to pay more.

Step2: Use Construction + 161 gold to obtain Korea's Republic.
Now there are alternatives. Instead of Const + 161 to Korea we could have also used Const + Poly or Const + curr or Curr + Poly to obtain Republic + cash.

Paying with obsolete techs usually is better and this is no excception.

3: The Timing.
Was it the right moment to trade? Yes. Germany had a tech we wanted and lacked a tech we had. Not much to say about it.

4: The trading partner.
The good partners were chosen; Germany was our only partner for the Const for Curr trade and Korea lacked techs we had and we wanted The Republic


So all is fine ???
No !!!
DL missed a perfect 3fer1. Even a 4fer1 actually.

After step 2 the trade entered the interesting waters.

Russia has Feud + Eng,
Greece has Feud + Eng,
Spain has Eng,
Germany has Mono (they got it because we traded them into the MA and they got it for free being a scientific Civ).

So there are 4 civs with techs we don't have and they don't all share. This is a perfect situation for a 3fer1 attempt; especially since we own 3017 gold.

Of the available MA techs Mono is the most expensive (2104 gold to Germ); 1717 to Greece (Russia asks more) for Feud and Engineering is sold for 873 by Spain & Greece (Russia wants more).

If we'd bought Mono from Germany and used that tech to obtain the other 2 MA techs we'd be in a really good situation. This could not wait. Germany got Mono because of our trade and if they were given the chance of 1 turn to trade it themselves we'd be left out and lost this 4fer1.

Rik's alternative
Step 1: Const to Germany for Curr + 2

Step 2: Use Construction + Currency to get Korea's Republic + 10 gold.

Step 3: Buy Mono from Germany for 2104 gold.

Feud now, as it was the 2nd most expensive tech. Greece and Russia both have Feud and lack Mono. But since Russia doesn't know Germany (and Greece does) they only know that 1 civ (we) that owns Mono and see it as a monopoly tech. Greece wants to trade Feud for Mono + 880 of our gold, while Russia will buy our Mono for Feud + all their gold (only 1). So:

Step 4: Sell Mono to Russia for Feud + 1 gold.

Now Engineering. Greece has it and lacks Mono, Spain has it, but lacks Mono+Feud, Russia has it,lacks nothing. So we go for Spain (As we have 2 techs to use, should it be neccesary).
For Feud we can get Eng + 8 gold + 4gpt. For Mono we don't get Eng and for Feud + Mono we get Eng + Monarchy + Silks + 1gpt. As Monarchy is also known to the non-MA civs and we don't really need it the Feud for Eng + 8 + 4gpt is the best.

Step 5: Sell Feud to Spain for Eng + 8 gold + 4 gpt.

We now own all 3 MA techs. We paid 2095 for it and got 4 gpt back. But we need to get our money back, somehow. Germany has 2104 gold, Greece 102 and the rest only have peanuts. For Feud + Eng Germany pays 1883 gold. For just Feud 1217 and just Eng: 667. 667 + 1217 = 1884. Hardly a difference. If we trade them 1 by 1 there is a small risk the price will drop. So:

Step 6: Sell Feud + Eng to Germany for 1883.

Greece lacks Mono, has Monarchy + cash.

Step 7: Sell Mono to Greece for Monarchy + 86 gold + 1gpt.

Germany still has 221 gold, but lacks Monarchy.

Step 8: Sell Monarchy to Germany for 221 gold.

Now, after obtaining 6 techs we are equal in techs with Greece, Germany and Russia, ahead of Neth, Japan, Spain and Korea. We've 3122 gold, while we started with 3015 gold. And we get 5 gpt for the next 20 turns.

DL's trade got us 2 techs while we paid 159 gold in total. And we are only ahead of Korea (Japan has monarchy, but lacks Curr and Republic).

Rik's conclusion
Sorry dl, but this is a very bad display. Instead of using the gift we were given (4 civs who do not all know eachother with techs we want and aren't shared amongst themselves) dl chosen to go conservative. Not using a 3fer1 (if you count Monarchy 4fer1) is sad. I find it hard to write down my conclusion without insulting dl (which is not my goal); I just hope Rik's alternative speaks for itself.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Roster:

jurimax
oopsy poopsy
bede
plarq
dl123654
peacemonger - up
trikos - on deck

 

[Bede]

Rik's alternative points out the value of early contact and embassies on this map. The alternative was there becasue we knew everybody and also had tabs on "who knew who".

This is where the trading game gets really interesting and boldness preceded by careful analysis pays off. Knowledge in the MA increases in cost by 3x over the most expensive AA techs. So it becomes even more important that every trading sequence aims for maximum return.

@peacemonger, take at look at the save and then post some ideas on how to garner some of the value that is still there.

 

[peacemonger]

long planning post here:

the state of affairs pre-turn

Korea knows us, and Greece. Has Feudalism, no gold, lacks Monarchy.
We can buy Feud for:
619 + Ivory + Monarchy
1333+Ivory
799 + Monarchy

Suggests they value Ivory at 180 and Monarchy at 714. They don’t have any gpt to spare for Ivory.


Greece knows everyone but the Dutch. Has Mono, Feud, Eng and 107 gold.
We can buy Feud (beaker 752) at 4th for:
1409 + Ivory
1569 straight up

We can buy Mono (beaker 926) at 3rd for:
779 + Ivory
939 straight up

We can buy Eng (beaker 770) at 5th for:
632 + Ivory
792 straight up

Suggests they value Ivory at 160

They also have Dyes, which we can buy for
Ivory + 153
313 straight up


Dutch knows us, Spain, Russia, Germany. We have identical knowledge. He has 33 gold. In his world, Mono is known by 1; Feud by 1; Eng by 3
He’ll pay 6gpt +33 for Ivory, that may represent all he can afford for techs. He’ll pay the same for an alliance against the Germans.


Russia does not know Germany or Korea. She has Feud, Eng and 3 gold. Fyi, she’s a known liar and cheat.
We can buy Feud (beaker 752) at 3rd (in her eyes) for:
1625 straight up

We can buy Eng (beaker 770) at 4th (in her eyes) for:
821 straight up

She doesn’t need Ivory, but she has Furs, which we can buy for 301

Japan knows us and Greece. He is down Currency and has 2 gold.
He won’t even pay 1gpt, so he’s at max on his science.

Spain apparently just avoids East Asian cultures. She has Engineering and 32 gold.
We can buy Eng (beaker 770) at 5th for:
632 + Ivory (same as Greece)
792 straight up (same as Greece)

So, she also values Ivory at 160. If we hooked up another Incense, she’d be into that too.

She has Silks, which we can buy for
Ivory + 153
313 straight up

She’s got 3gpt to spare.

Germany is at war with Spain and the Netherlands, so other than us his only trading partner is Greece. Has Mono, Eng and 9 gold.
We can buy Mono (beaker 926) at 3rd for:
973 straight up

We can buy Eng (beaker 770) at 4th (in his eyes) for:
821 straight up

We have no trade route with him yet, but he has 6pgt to spare (tested for alliance against Spain)

I think this is what I would do:
Step 1: Trade Monarchy +799 to Korea for Feudalism.
Step 2: Trade Feudalism +/- to Germany for Mono +/-.
Step 3: Trade Feudalism + Mono to Spain for Engineering + cash.
Step 4: With all the techs, sell back around to Dutch (probably Feud) and Russia (Mono) to maximize our cash.
Also, quite possible that 2nd tier techs will be revealed during the trades, so plan to check for that between each step and adjust accordingly.

Other points:
We have 14 warrior 2 archer 8 sword 6 horse, and are likely to keep getting picked on by Toku if we don’t build our mili a bit.
We have 3 settlers in the queue, 30 workers for our 23 cities. After anarchy, time to get the pumps back to work but I’m not sure how much more land there is to settle. (Workers we can definitely still use plenty)
Need to start Marketplaces in appropriate locations to get the commercial machine cranking.

Comment at will. I'll probably play sometime tomorrow.

 

[Rik Meleet]

I think this is what I would do:
Step 1: Trade Monarchy +799 to Korea for Feudalism.
Step 2: Trade Feudalism +/- to Germany for Mono +/-.
Step 3: Trade Feudalism + Mono to Spain for Engineering + cash.
Step 4: With all the techs, sell back around to Dutch (probably Feud) and Russia (Mono) to maximize our cash.
Also, quite possible that 2nd tier techs will be revealed during the trades, so plan to check for that between each step and adjust accordingly.

I haven't studied the siuation fully, just a quick check.

Step 1: Looks very good; we are usuing a tech to get a tech.
Step 2: Smart thinking to go for Germ next because they know so few people.
Step 3: Again good choice of tradingpartner; using techs to get techs.
Step 4: Good as well; get our money back

In case a civ has a yet invisible tech; will you adjust your trades accordingly ? Monopoly techs are very precious to sell around.

 

[Bede]

peacemonger. Good use of what and who we know.

Tech Value point: Monarchy, Republic, Feudalism, Nationalism, Facism, Democracy and Communism are always overvalued by the AI so trading for them is always expensive. If you can work a one of those into a deal it is great, particularly if it is at 2nd or 3rd, so it can be whipped around.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

sounds like a plan to me peacemonger! Can't wait to see how it turns out.

 

[peacemonger]

first save is 230AD when Invention appears, even though I did not trade. Rik -- to evaluate the T0 trade, just look at DL's save.

T0 50AD
Trade as follows:
Step 1: Monarchy + 799 to Korea for Feudalism. Won’t know if there are 2nd level techs until we pick up Monotheism, Engineering.
Step 2: Germany will give us Monotheism and empty his pockets (6gpt+9) for Feudalism. Hmm. Alternatively, he’ll give us both Monotheism and Engineering for Feudalism +263. This would immediately reveal all possible 2nd tiers, but we don’t get his treasury if there aren’t any such 2nd tiers available to broker around to him. I go for the max cash deal. Check Greece to see if Chivalry or Theology is there, nope. And nor does Germany have Theology.
Step 3: Sit down with Spain. Monotheism is not enough by itself to pick up Engineering. But for Monotheism and Feudalism together, she gives us Engineering, all the cash she has to spare (3gpt+32), and sweetens the pot with silks (worth 313 in her estimation). Deal. Check Greece and Russia for Invention, no dice.
Step 4: We have spent 799 and picked up all 3 of the MA 1st tier techs, plus 9gpt plus 41 plus silks. Let’s see if we can get some more gold and luxuries. Korea will give us 779 for Engineering (can trade with him whenever during this step, since he only knows Greece and we have no tech trade possibilities with Greece). Russia has no gpt to spare, so she is going to cough up furs and 3g no matter what, so she goes last, and Willie goes first. Willie gives us the bank (6gpt +33) in exchange for Monotheism (I decide to give him that, rather than either of the military techs). Now, is it worth it to give Catherine a tech in exchange for furs (valued at about 301)? Hem, haw but I think I will wait. IN anarchy, I can’t really tell our lux needs and we can always pay cash if we need.

Hit enter.

IBT:
Lots of barbs around Iol giving us the business. A curragh at sea drowns.

T1 70AD
No new techs, the following gold:
Japan 4 (+2) (down Currency)
Greece 109 (+2)
Russia 24 (+21) (she self-researched Monotheism, since she still has all her furs)
Germany 7 (-2)
Spain 12
Korea 12 (down Monoth)
Neth 0

Stack of 3 workers to start roading through the jungle to Russu – we are going to need some defenders there (frontier with everybody) relatively soon. Another stack waters the grass near the iron mountain NE of Hadremetrum for a future town site. Stack near Thenae moves to Al-Kaf for jungle-clearing/roading work on the frontier. There are 3 settlers near Iol who need to stay put for now during the barb uprising, protected by a lowly sword who can’t go on the attack b/c that would leave the settlers uncovered. Swap an injured horse for a fresh one to head out for barb suppression. Our one curragh and one galley are patrolling Korea.

IBT
Korea is pissed off, and we leave his borders.
We lose that horse to the barbs at Iol, and our Sword is injured. I fear not enough mili will make it in time to keep us from losing those settlers. We are losing people to disease in our jungle towns. But, good news – the revolution is over, and we are now a Republic (did we discuss gov’t choice? I assume Republic and not Monarchy as we are all about the cash for the time being)

T2 90AD
No new tech
Change Theveste to a horse (quicker to produce, needed for barbs), Change Utica to a galley until we can get back to being a worker farm. Fire all the clowns and taxmen.
Carthage Settler -> settler (we may need replacements for the ones near barb-central). An overabundance of food in Carthage now, with those irrigated grasslands.

IBT
Theveste horse -> horse
Russia and Spain building Sun Tsu. Volcano eruption, curragh booted from Korea sinks (oops)

T3 110AD
No new tech
Taxman at Iol and change production to archer. Need a road to Iol; need to remember that. Looking for places to build some mili, but fear of wasting shields. Saldae, Sulcis will have their rax soon and have good shield production so they will be good candidates in a few turns. Don’t see good marketplace locations quite yet, either, til the current rax, aqueduct and courthouse builds are done at least. Changed Nora from settler to horse.

IBT

T4 130AD
No new tech
Routine stuff

IBT

T5 150AD
No new tech
Routine stuff

IBT

T6 170AD
Lux up to 30%, some taxmen at Russuc and Iol. No new techs but somewhere in there Korea met Neth and Spain, and Japan has also met Spain. Oea starts a marketplace.

T7 190AD
Found Zouchis, begin harbor. Literature has been discovered, and traded around. (I might have missed its appearance last turn, for which I apologize). All but Japan and Germany know it. We could pick it up for under 150, but I don’t see why, as it has made the rounds and has no real resale value or use to us as we don’t need libraries for research.

IBT
Greece offers Dyes for Ivory +10gpt. No thanks. (We could still but for 313 straight-up)
Russians are building Glib

T8 210AD
No tech changes
Routine stuff

IBT
Lose a horse to barb control
Spain is building GLib

T9 230AD
Invention has appeared on the market. It is known only by Greece. Saw how fast Literature made the rounds. Invention, maybe they won’t trade as fast because of its value. It costs around 2350 plus ivory. I think the question is, is there enough gold in the world to make the brokering an ok deal at monopoly price, when there is no more tech to be had for it (other than Lit) or would it be better to see if a 3fer is around the corner? I think not, and I don’t think anyone else can afford it anyway. But, for the exercise:
Japan 2g, no gpt, and he’s still behind MA techs (though he eventually picked up currency)
Russia has furs, 11gpt, 26g
Neth 7g, no gpt, no lux
Korea 6g, no gpt
Germany 3g, no gpt
Spain 91g, 26gpt

Total available is under a grand, plus value of furs. Pass.

p.s. I want to plug the hole btw Saldi and Oea, settler is ready but I am not sure which tile is optimal and I don’t have time to think it through; settler’s holding for now. Settlers near Iol are moving into locations as barb situation is nearly under control. Lux still at 30%, wouldn’t be necessary once frontiers are roaded except Rusiddiur – which I switched from Courthouse to market, due in 19

IBT
Neth building Glib

T10 250AD
Routine stuff. Invention is still a monopoly.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Just a short comment on the 230AD non-trade.

Invention isn't interesting for us. It gives longbows (not needed) and Leo's (worthless wonder; only nice if captured).
Literature is obtainable through an Invention trade; but Lit is also not interesting for us.

So the only value we have in Invention is for it's trading purposes. Trade for money is not good; all civs have little money. Trading for Xfer1's: there are none (at least no interesting ones) around, so not trading was the thing to do.
If a different civ gets Chivlary or Theology (and hasn't got Inv); then we'll be talking.

 

[Bede]

Roster check:
trikos - up if back?
jurimax - on deck or up if trikos is still conferring
oopsy poopsy
bede
plarq
dl123654
peacemonger - up

Alles in ordnung, I think. Will look at the save later.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

Leo's is a worthless wonder? Really? I love that wonder. Half price upgrades is sweet. I guess in this game since we haven't built a single spearmen path unit yet and only like 3 or 4 horses it's not really important, but usually that's one of my favorites.That with Sun-Tzu means I can always focus on building and they keep my military from getting too far behind.

 

[peacemonger]

I've been of the same mind as o-p on that one (Leo's being pretty valuable), but maybe that has been b/c I'm just not that effective w mili management and look for as many shortcuts as I can on that front. Perhaps, since we have a zero science budget, we don't have to worry so much in this game re upgrade costs -- we will always have a nice balance in the treasury. I know there are no one size fits all wonders, but keeping in mind the particulars of our game, what, if any, would be wonders we ought to consider building ourselves?

 

[Bede]

In another no research game the other requirement was no wonders.(Eldar01) It will finish as a 100K/Dom exacta.

When you have cash in the bank and a strong net income neither SunT nor Leo's are all the effective.

Smith's Trading Company would be huge for this game (free harbors and commerce improvements).

BTW, anybody have any ideas why it was we missed SoZ?

The answer to that question will help ua plana Wonnder-building strategy.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

well, we didn't plan much of a pre-build for SoZ did we? A timed pre-build will probably be the only way we get a wonder since we will never get to a tech first. I figured that Smith's would be huge for us, so at what point do we need to plan or start the pre-build for that?

 

[peacemonger]

I was the idjut that started the SoZ. In that instance, not being 1st with tech was not so much the issue (we were the first w the tech AND the necessary ivory) but in general, yeah, I think at levels Emp and above pre-builds are necessary. Theveste had high shield production comparatively at the time SoZ was started, but with no granary and no workers focusing on getting the land productive it probably didn't grow in spt as quickly as it needed to pull a wonder either.

 

[Bede]

Pre-builds are half the answer.

The other is the AI production discount that becomes meaningful at Emperor. At Emperor the AI cost for any build is 80%, so a 200 shield wonder for the human costs the AI 160 shields. Even with a pre-build unless you can get a town to 20spt Ancient Age wonders are hard to come by, and they only get harder in the MA.

The kicker in planning wonder pre-builds is that we lack control over research pace. And I don't have a good answer to your question, o-p. The big problem is avoiding production over-runs. And having your best producing town over-run by 500 shields in a pre-build is painful as it has cost you many troops or other useful stuff.

The alternative is , but location counts. You don't want to capture a continental only wonder on an archi map unless you can somehow make the other island productive.

 

[Bede]

Roster check:


jurimax - up as trikos is still conferring
oopsy poopsy - on deck
bede
plarq
dl123654
peacemonger
trikos - skipped