Traits

[Thedrin]

I think you're giving up too much in the middle and late game when picking Creative. I'm a bit surprised that so many people here rate it that high.

Assume for a moment that all traits give bonuses of equal value where value is determined by the number of free hammers and commerce. It is often (and accurately in my view) said that the earlier something happens the more influence it has on the games outcome. Using this its not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that a trait which squeezes the majority of its bonus in to the early game is the best trait.

I'm not saying that all traits are of equal value but I am saying that because so much of creatives value is obtained at the very beginning of the game it is extremely powerful - even if it does give less commerce and hammers overall.

It is my favourite trait.

 

[siggboy]

Similarly if you don't cottage spam then you won't reap the benefits of the financial trait.

Don't forget about coasts. If you like to settle on coasts, being financial is hot, because all the water tiles now reap 3 out of the box. And lakes are yummy too, especially if on a coastal city (lake with lighthouse = 33 unpillageable -- nice). Also, all of the luxury resources give one more gold.

(Edit: of course I'm talking about coastal water tiles above)

And who doesn't build at least a few cottages in their empire? So I don't agree with you if you say that you have to actively spam them to profit from being Financial. It always gives you a lot of additional commerce.

--Sigi

 

[siggboy]

Assume for a moment that all traits give bonuses of equal value where value is determined by the number of free hammers and commerce. It is often (and accurately in my view) said that the earlier something happens the more influence it has on the games outcome. Using this its not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that a trait which squeezes the majority of its bonus in to the early game is the best trait.

You are making a very valid argument. I haven't thought about it that way yet. But you would agree then if I say that in this case you absolutely, positively, have to go for a land grab in the beginning of the game to make full use of Creative? Otherwise you'd lose the early advantage it gives you and clearly would make it pale in comparison so many other traits. Or is there any other major strategy making use of it that I've missed?

--Sigi

 

[FoxTrot12]

in my opinion, Spiritual is the best trait ever
no anarchy has several invaluable potentials:
- switching between universal suffrage and representation = insane research and production
- Converting among religions to follow AI = best diplomacy
- switching between nationhood and slavery/free speech/bureaucracy = best way to build military

Those are actually very good points. But my personal strategy differs, so I still stand in the SHC (Spirtual Haters Club).

 

[Thedrin]

You are making a very valid argument. I haven't thought about it that way yet. But you would agree then if I say that in this case you absolutely, positively, have to go for a land grab in the beginning of the game to make full use of Creative? Otherwise you'd lose the early advantage it gives you and clearly would make it pale in comparison so many other traits. Or is there any other major strategy making use of it that I've missed?

Depends how you define land grab. If you mean that you need to settle as much cities as possible then I'd say that it's possible that you're not making the best use of the trait. Unless you're in the center of a continent shared with many civs, a small number of cities can be used to block off a large amount of land from everyone else (my favourite creative tactic). You can then back fill this land at your leisure. Alternatively you can settle a couple of early military cities to perform an early rush against a near non-creative neighbour. Without early border expansions you can conquer your opponents cities easily using chariots or axes The capital may require a lot of sacrificial units so you may choose to leave it alone. Your free culture will soon overpower the residue of culture left over from your opponent and the culture encroaching from other cities. It will also provide all of your cities with quick, cheap defences making it easier for you to defend them than for the opponent you took them from.

Even if you don't alter your strategy with creative, the flexibility it gives you in city placement is still very powerful - if you're not creative you may choose a less than optimal city site in order to get quicker access to an important resource. With creative you can go for optimal city placement and get access to resources with free, early border expansions.

 

[siggboy]

Unless you're in the center of a continent shared with many civs, a small number of cities can be used to block off a large amount of land from everyone else (my favourite creative tactic). You can then back fill this land at your leisure.

Are you keeping closed borders in this case or does the strategy also work against the AI if you have open borders with them (ie. are they reluctant to march across your territory to found an exclave)? I really like to open borders with my neighbours, because it boosts diplomacy, trade and gives you the opportunity to spy on them.

Even if you don't alter your strategy with creative, the flexibility it gives you in city placement is still very powerful - if you're not creative you may choose a less than optimal city site in order to get quicker access to an important resource. With creative you can go for optimal city placement and get access to resources with free, early border expansions.

That, of course, is very true and the factor I like most about being creative. It can be a decisive early advantage. I'm only sorry for it not mattering much anymore after the initial expansion phase. It is then then I wish I had a more powerful long-term trait such as Spiritual, Financial or Organized instead...

--Sigi

 

[harusame]

Expansive is actually a very powerful trait at higher difficulties, especially if you are running SE

but honestly, i dont care anymore for 2nd trait if i have spiritual leaders
all i need is stone and pyramid = win

 

[KingSteve3721]

Dont forget about the Colos, Libraries and Theatres...especially with the Coloseums, it saves you a few turns of production, and being that these are 3 of (in my opinion) the most important buildings to have, It is a huge benefit in terms of getting them faster than other civs.

 

[synthboy]

Don't forget about coasts. If you like to settle on coasts, being financial is hot, because all the water tiles now reap 3 out of the box. And lakes are yummy too, especially if on a coastal city (lake with lighthouse = 33 unpillageable -- nice). Also, all of the luxury resources give one more gold.

And who doesn't build at least a few cottages in their empire? So I don't agree with you if you say that you have to actively spam them to profit from being Financial. It always gives you a lot of additional commerce.

My point was more that you have to actively play to your traits bonuses so agressive, for example, isn't fully used if you play a builder game.

However, I'm always wary of using costal squares at the expense of cottages. You get an early gold rush but they can't grow to the same level of commerce as a cottage can. The advantage is that they can't be pillaged and you can effectively switch between commerce and production (use your land based squares to emphasise production) but I'd prefer to see fully maturd towns chucking out big cash and (with Universal Sufferage) extra hammers.

 

[Thedrin]

Are you keeping closed borders in this case or does the strategy also work against the AI if you have open borders with them (ie. are they reluctant to march across your territory to found an exclave)? I really like to open borders with my neighbours, because it boosts diplomacy, trade and gives you the opportunity to spy on them.

Unless you beeline to writing you can set up an enclave well before you actually have the opportunity to open borders with other civs. I also wouldn't open borders with another civ until doing so gives me foreign trade routes which is quite often a while after I first have the opportunity to open borders (but that's me; I'm not saying this is the best thing).

The purpose of setting up a couple of barrier cities is not so much to grab all of the land between the border cities and your capital but to have first choice of all of the best sites in the area without fear of being beaten to them. Missing out on a couple of small cities after opening borders isn't a big deal - especially if it means you don't pay the maintenance but your opponent pays a lot more due to distance.

 

[FoxTrot12]

By the way, I believe that Expansive is way underrated. It's a good little trait the complements several other traits.

 

[harusame]

By the way, I believe that Expansive is way underrated. It's a good little trait the complements several other traits.

i think, it's because lots people usually stay at prince
indeed the higher the difficulty, the more expansive traits becomes useful

the fact that barbarian are AI in higher difficulties are way more annoying (killing cottages), make it very hard to run a CE
running SE = you need lots people = you need health bonus

 

[FoxTrot12]

What's CE and SE?

 

[Agarwaen]

What's CE and SE?

CE = Cottage Economy
SE = Specialist Economy

there are several threads comparing this two in the strategies forum

 

[FoxTrot12]

Ah, I see...
I usually end up with a bigtime CE, although I'm not sure if that's a good thing.
I've decided to start a Montezuma game and pay attention to how Spirtual works out.

 

[siggboy]

However, I'm always wary of using costal squares at the expense of cottages. You get an early gold rush but they can't grow to the same level of commerce as a cottage can.

Well, to grow a science powerhouse or GP farm, one obviously does not want to go coastal with such a city. Still, the commercial limit of coastal tiles (4 with Colossus when financial) is partly compensated for by (usually) better trade routes in coastal cities (and also more, if you have the GL). This holds even more true if you are alone on your continent -- after Astronomy, the coastal cities produce a lot more trade commerce than the continental cities. So, the trade routes partly compensate for the lack of cottages (in varying degrees, depending on wonders, buildings, civics and geographic situation). I also like that the fact that you have to worry less about all this commerce (it can't be pillaged and doesn't need much management). Keeps my limited brain free for other tasks (like micromanaging my whipping .

Unless you beeline to writing you can set up an enclave well before you actually have the opportunity to open borders with other civs. [...]
The purpose of setting up a couple of barrier cities is not so much to grab all of the land between the border cities and your capital but to have first choice of all of the best sites in the area without fear of being beaten to them.

The point of my question was something else: The strategy of "boxing in" an opponent via land grab and fast border expansion (creative trait), does it work well if you have open borders with that opponent? The AI might take into account higher maintenance and strategic disadvantages when evaluating possible city spots, or it might not and simply march into your "claim" and found an exclave.

i think, it's because lots people usually stay at prince
indeed the higher the difficulty, the more expansive traits becomes useful

the fact that barbarian are AI in higher difficulties are way more annoying (killing cottages), make it very hard to run a CE
running SE = you need lots people = you need health bonus

OK, as I've said before, I'm not really fond of the idea of introducing artificial, and unbalancing, modifications to the rules to achieve higher difficulties. Of course, because the Civ4 AI is quite weak, you have no other choice if you want the game to be really hard. I'm playing only Blake's Better AI now, usually on Prince (which roughly equals Monarch with the vanilla AI), because that way I can stay closer to the "actual rules" (Noble) and still enjoy a challenge (BTW I highly recommend Better AI).

My line of thought is the following: if a given trait (Expansive in this case) gains a lot of value in the presence of artificial rule tweaks (difficulty level), to the extent that this becomes a major argument in favor of this trait, then something is wrong, because the rule tweaks shouldn't be there in the first place (given a strong enough AI they don't have to).

Anyway, I get the point about the value of being Expansive when running a specialist economy and I clearly see why Peter (Exp/Phi) is an excellent leader for such an approach (indeed I'm planning to improve my specialist handling, and you can be sure I'm gonna choose Peter for that .

--Sigi

 

[synthboy]

Well, to grow a science powerhouse or GP farm, one obviously does not want to go coastal with such a city. Still, the commercial limit of coastal tiles (4 with Colossus when financial) is partly compensated for by (usually) better trade routes in coastal cities (and also more, if you have the GL). This holds even more true if you are alone on your continent -- after Astronomy, the coastal cities produce a lot more trade commerce than the continental cities. So, the trade routes partly compensate for the lack of cottages (in varying degrees, depending on wonders, buildings, civics and geographic situation). I also like that the fact that you have to worry less about all this commerce (it can't be pillaged and doesn't need much management).

Some good points. I might even give it a try although I'll still cottage-spam any land tiles first. Sorry, just the way I am.

Keeps my limited brain free for other tasks (like micromanaging my whipping .

 

[Tigerclaw]

My favourites are various combinations of Financial and Charismatic/Philosophical. Financial, because of the "3 for the price of 2" bonus, which is just rock solid. And Philosophical for the boosted GP points, which I often use as SuperSpecialists, rather than lightbulbing (I probably should move up from Noble really). Both of these traits provide an extremely solid bonus, which helps you out in two vital "builder" areas: commerce and specialists. With Elizabeth, I go for a hybrid economy, using both Cottages, Farms and Specialists, which gives me an extremely balanced economic base, and which lets me do well in all areas, with few weaknesses.

Charismatic is also cool, mainly for the cheap promos, which come in handy in almost any war situation (especially as when you promote a unit, it gets some health back, which really helps keep an advance going), defensive or offensive.

Of the other traits, the only other one that I have the time of day for, is Spiritual, simply because it gives you a huge amount of flexibility in the late game, letting you flit from Civic to Civic for free...

 

[FoxTrot12]

Also, I don't l like protective.