Trespass Doctrine

[Chalito]

I’ve been playing with the Flintlock Trespass disallowed for a while now, but have realized that while the annoying trespassers were eliminated, it also made the game easier by removing the surprise SOD sneak attacks with force.

So I’m planning on allowing it in my games again and just want to hear everyone’s strategy on how to handle it.

For instance that AI Civ that is heading to the Barbarian Camp beyond your borders that you can’t see yet. They start trickling in a line of multiple units. You kick them out, but they start marching right through again!

Is it war, an ROP to get them moving of the way fast, or just let them slowly pass through blocking multiple tiles of your territory?

 

[Spoonwood]

For instance that AI Civ that is heading to the Barbarian Camp beyond your borders that you can’t see yet.

Good! I don't want to have to have a unit out fighting barbarians and losing.

Also, for that matter, why did I have barbarians at roaming or higher in the game to begin with? I guess they provide a little extra gold if defeated, but there's not enough benefit. The AIs can get more benefit from barbarian camps with enough free units and a free settler or two also, I think. Barbarians make things less predictable. Also, I thought about playing for a histopgrahic game for a COTM somewhat recently. But, the map had barbarians. I realized I would need some units watching territory until the end of the game. Maybe I've missed something. But, why do you want barbarians? Do the benefits outweigh the hassle of them?

hey start trickling in a line of multiple units. You kick them out, but they start marching right through again!

I remember reading an article for winning on Deity a longtime ago by Drakan which suggested just letting them walk over your land. At the default difficulty levels where the AIs have a free settler, your empire is wimpy early. Why aggravate someone who can bully your empire? Even on 'least aggressive' you can have Annoyed AIs by the end of the ancient age. Everytime you tell an AI to get out your territory, that decreases their attitude towards you. From what I can tell AI attitude affects the cost of workers and the exchange rate on some difficulty levels (though it's fixed on least aggressive). Good AI attitude also helps to decrease the probability of sneak attacks, and can help to win a diplomatic victory. So, one very much need a strongly compelling reason to tell AIs to get out of one's land, if one thinks things through in my opinion.

Is it war

If it's war for trespassing, that decreases the difficulty range for a game. No matter the tactics, I don't want to imagine a "trespassing means war" constraint on a Sid pangea game. I'd guess that in 80%-90%, if not 98% of cases, that would be a loss. So, I can't really recommend such a constraint as "trespassing means war", unless it's deliberately a constraint to make the game more difficult.

an ROP to get them moving of the way fast

I don't think so. There exist some cases where I've outsettled AIs that walked into my territory. Then the AI will turn around and go the other direction. Though, you might want to consider RoPs for other purposes... though I've often tried to avoid RoPs early to slow down AI settling on high levels come to think of it.

just let them slowly pass through blocking multiple tiles of your territory

Yes, that can work! I would say that it's not always necessary or optimal. Like I believe that if you can produce a worker in 5 turns with minimal to no shield overrun, a worker is better than preventing AIs from walking through your lands. But, if it seems like a decent time to put out a unit, blocking them off might work. Also, once they get Map Making blocking with land units won't work as much. So, of course, it's not something to get relied on.

Additionally, AI trespassing with settlers sometimes can get leveraged beyond just getting some slaves. Like let's say you play on a level where the AI has a good amount of free units and a good growth rate. Early on, the military advisor will rate them better than your empire, possibly until the end of the ancient age. Now, let's say Elizabeth from the other side of the continent sends a settler your way. And you're behind in tech.

Well, then set your tax slider to 100% temporarily. Maybe also change all citzens to tax collectors. Then ring up Elizabeth. Tell her you will pay gpt only for whatever technology she has, or the gold she has in her treasury (if it's just gold, you probably don't need to lift citizens for tax collectors). Now since she has 2 units in your territory, tell her to get her units out or declare war. Well, she will declare war (or at least will if she's Furious also). Then you get to keep the gold or technology. And she's on the other side of the continent, and not really a threat (though maybe she can sign military alliances).

But note the above isn't necessarily a thing to do as soon as an English settler-spearmen pair walks into your territory. It often enough can work out as more beneficial to let their units walk around for a while.

So, I'd say that the trespassing doctrine is more like "get good stuff for free from trespassing AIs, when you can handle a war against that AI, and you don't mind putting out units." Kind of like what Moonsinger suggested she did in GOTM games years ago. In such cases, I certainly don't find trespassing annoying, but instead a good opportunity.

 

[Civinator]

I love those trespassers in my CCM games. I accept their applications to become monks and great artists in my empire. Culture bombing is such a nice feature!

 

[SayHayKid]

I have played through two test games with my mod having it enabled. What I like about it (in addition to removing map trading and suicide galleys) is that there is a second full age of discovery. I am thinking about making the Explorer either invisible or HN so they can cross borders and explore rival territory though without an ROP. Explorers come right around the time ships can safely traverse the sea and oceans leading to the second age of discovery.

 

[tjs282]

If you give Explorers only the HN attribute, the AI will treat them like intruding Barbs, and go after them relentlessly. So if you want them to have any chance of survival, you'd have to make them Invisible as well.

 

[Chalito]

Okay cool, it seems like you guys have mods with HD units that actually make good use of the AI Trespassers!

 

[Quintillus]

Is it war, an ROP to get them moving of the way fast, or just let them slowly pass through blocking multiple tiles of your territory?

Well, it's situational, right?

If I want to jealously guard land that I plan to claim as my own some day, I may try to using Warriors or other cheap units to block their path, especially if they show signs of sending a Settler, even if it means I have to deal with those barbarians myself.

If I want peace with them and don't care about their expedition, I'll probably just ignore it. Or perhaps their trespassing incentivizes me to sign a right of passage, so I can at least explore their lands, too.

If I want to fight them? I could demand that they leave, but if I have enough offensive units, it may be an even better idea to let their units enter my lands, shadowing them with my own troops, and then declare war on them (not demanding that they leave or declare war, but declaring war on them myself). Then I can target as many of their offensive units as possible at once, with all of my offensive units, leaving to the extent possible only defensive units that are now stuck deep in enemy territory. This can work even better if they are sending Horsemen or other fast units that will advance faster than their defensive units and leave themselves vulnerable.

If I fear they may sneak-attack me? That's when I'm most likely to demand they leave, as the farther they get, the more likely it is that multiple cities are threatened if they don't leave. Maybe if my border cities are poorly defended but valuable (perhaps they have a key resource), I'll let them advance a bit farther first to buy time, but if I suspect nothing good is likely to come of their presence, then better to figure that out sooner rather than when they're right next to my capital or whatever other appealing target they are going towards.

 

[Lanzelot]

If I want to jealously guard land that I plan to claim as my own some day, I may try to using Warriors or other cheap units to block their path, especially if they show signs of sending a Settler

If I plan to go to war against them anyway (or at least I don't mind a war with them), then I just let them settle that town and "incorporate" it into my empire later... One settler less I need to build... and the 30 shields can be turned into something useful, like a horseman... )

 

[Takhisis]

Those 30 shields are the Pikeman that will guard the city after you take it, of course.

If I want to jealously guard land that I plan to claim as my own some day, I may try to using Warriors or other cheap units to block their path, especially if they show signs of sending a Settler, even if it means I have to deal with those barbarians myself.

The best thing to do is use a handful of such cheap units to place a moving barrier. Thus the AI is never blocked and doesn't switch over to war and it just patiently tries to walk around your troops, which every turn or two just switch around positions in such a way that the path is different.