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Trojan Horse: Ninja Style

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    Proposal for a new city location:



    Aim: Create a single city front with Kaz, limit Kaz expansion, allowing TKY to grow to its' full potential, 4 extra forests for 2 extra workers.

    Cost: Variable, minimum 2 forests in TKY, either settler out of CK (city t112) or [3 forests in TKY (city t111) and delay in hooking the corn]

    Military plan: wipe out both Kaz axes on t107, and immediately cover both hills with axe/spear pairs, using 4 workers (1 choped from TKY is mandatory), to road to the axes to Kaz never see it coming. Leaves 2 axes, archer, sentry chariot for other operations, plus LB from CK to defend DT.

    There are 2 separate worker plans that are used depending on where teh settler comes from; surficed to say I will post them later in the form of a possible NCDP update in this thread (just the relevent changes).

    Spoiler :
    Memphus says (15:59):
    well you didn't miss much
    how much time for MS on the clock?
    Krill says (15:59):
    less than 2 hours
    Memphus says (16:00):
    cool
    wonder how long kaz will take.
    i hope they don't move spears in behind those axes
    Krill says (16:00):
    *shrug*
    Krill says (16:01):
    not much we can do about that
    Memphus says (16:01):
    no
    but could we dislog them then?
    or woudl we just drop the city with the units there?
    Krill says (16:01):
    in theory
    Krill says (16:02):
    you know how we suprise kaz with the charfiots so they nevert see them coming?
    Memphus says (16:02):
    yeah
    Krill says (16:02):
    Well
    Memphus says (16:02):
    that is really cool btw
    borders on genius play
    i am sure they will say we chated
    *cheated
    Krill says (16:02):
    will be funny
    if they do
    Memphus says (16:02):
    ill take lots of screenshots.
    Krill says (16:03):
    We need an extra worker to pull this off, but...
    Memphus says (16:03):
    you going to post a map with the moves?
    (do you need a screenshot)
    Krill says (16:03):
    Still working out all of the options
    Krill says (16:04):
    can use the current one of that land
    Memphus says (16:04):
    are you trying the plant the city the sae turn too? so they don't even know we dropped one?
    Krill says (16:04):
    yup
    wipe them out
    move units to cover
    Krill says (16:05):
    and move the settler onto the city site
    all on t107
    turn before the attack, move a mini stack of axes and spears so that they are 2 tiles from both axes
    Memphus says (16:05):
    hat is pretty slick
    Krill says (16:05):
    there is a road above them
    need 4 workers for thisd, so t107
    Krill says (16:06):
    road the tile the mini stack is on
    then road the tile SE of the ministack
    http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/team_epsilon/Civ4ScreenShot0187.jpg
    both combat chariots kill the axes
    and 1 axe/1spear moves to cover both chariots
    the settler and longbow moves onto the city tile
    Memphus says (16:07):
    can they settle the city? it is on a forest
    Krill says (16:07):
    yeah
    have to settle t108
    Memphus says (16:07):
    ok cool
    Krill says (16:07):
    We can use zuurstof to protect the settler
    so maybe only need an archer
    Memphus says (16:07):
    btw is this taking into account serdom?
    Krill says (16:07):
    can upgrade t108 if need be
    yes
    Memphus says (16:08):
    as in the 3 workers at TKY move next turn then have a 2 turn chop?
    Krill says (16:08):
    taking into account serfodom on t1034
    t104 sorry
    yes
    I think we can revolt on t104
    and not t103
    because:
    don;t need it in the west
    in the south pasturing the pigs only needs serfdom for 2 turns
    Memphus says (16:08):
    gives us 1 mroe turn for bureau...
    Krill says (16:08):
    east all workers are chopping
    ronnie is moving
    Krill says (16:09):
    don;t need it for hte mining worker,
    and the chopping worker can just move S and chop
    so all the worker moves are fine
    Memphus says (16:09):
    yup
    Krill says (16:09):
    don;t need serfdom next turn.
    The problem I see...
    Krill says (16:10):
    we are going to be left with an axe and a sentry chariot to defend TKY
    atleast
    Memphus says (16:10):
    when does the current LB from CK get there?
    Krill says (16:10):
    not in time
    that lb can defend DT though
    Memphus says (16:10):
    will TKY borders have poped?
    Krill says (16:11):
    no
    well
    they don;t have to
    we have lots of visibility now
    we can probably get by with leaving the archer between wheat and TKY
    Memphus says (16:11):
    . .. .. .. . so we will have 1 spear axe and chariot on each hill then?
    Krill says (16:11):
    because if we take the eastern hill we have visibility on anything that can attack the settler
    yes
    Memphus says (16:12):
    cool
    Krill says (16:12):
    need to find a worker from somwhere though
    Memphus says (16:12):
    kinda wnat the sentry chariot down there too though :p
    can the worker coem from CK in time?
    Krill says (16:12):
    no
    Memphus says (16:12):
    chop in TKY before Settler?
    Krill says (16:12):
    delays settler
    Memphus says (16:12):
    make the workers more efficient?
    Krill says (16:13):
    not without showing a worker to Kaz
    Memphus says (16:14):
    hmmm
    what if we came from the east?
    Krill says (16:15):
    takes longer
    Memphus says (16:15):
    . .. .. .. .
    Krill says (16:15):
    need more roads
    Krill says (16:18):
    OK
    I don't think we can do it that way...
    but we can sneak the sentry chariot behind that forest adjacent to the western axe
    Krill says (16:19):
    so we can check for units
    Memphus says (16:21):
    so have it go from TKY to where waterstof is
    then SE S
    Krill says (16:21):
    depends if we want to reveal to Cav we have a sentry chariot
    Memphus says (16:22):
    they can't see that unit...
    well unless the have units.
    but then he is vulnerable to a chariot attack
    or would he be able to see anyone when he went SE
    Krill says (16:24):
    Cav can see waterstof
    Memphus says (16:24):
    right
    Krill says (16:24):
    so Cav can see a chariot on waterstofs tile
    Memphus says (16:24):
    sorry thought yo usaid kaz.
    Krill says (16:24):
    Cav can just tell Kaz that snippet of info
    np
    Memphus says (16:24):
    yeah i don't care if cav see that
    Krill says (16:27):
    ok
    Memphus says (16:28):
    because if they have no units behind the axes then we don't need the spear and axe to move onto the hill
    Krill says (16:28):
    We need to defend those tiles so Kaz don;t try to choke us
    atleast until we have the wheat improved
    Memphus says (16:30):
    yeah hmmm
    Krill says (16:31):
    I can get it all done by t109
    with the axes dead and the settler moved onto the tile
    Memphus says (16:31):
    that gives them alot of time for more units
    Krill says (16:31):
    yeah
    2 extra turns
    Memphus says (16:31):
    what is wrong with the 107?
    what if we settle the city later, say 109
    Krill says (16:31):
    possible loss of 2 chariots. That's about it
    Memphus says (16:32):
    but kill the axes sooner
    Krill says (16:32):
    can do that easy
    Memphus says (16:32):
    as in chop out worker first
    that leets current LB from CK make it there too.
    and it gives us a "push" on Kaz which might make them want peace
    Krill says (16:33):
    can kill them t107
    Memphus says (16:34):

    Krill says (16:34):
    thanks
    Memphus says (16:34):

    Krill says (16:35):
    city down t111
    Memphus says (16:35):
    hmmm
    Memphus says (16:36):
    so for 2 turns sooner of an attack we lose 2 turns on the city placement
    Krill says (16:36):
    welll
    look at getting hte settler out of CK...
    if that's the timescale
    can get city down t112
    Krill says (16:37):
    meeans that we have to make do with less military though
    so if we take losses we are between a rock and a hard place
    Memphus says (16:37):
    but lets our forest chops go into infrastructure at TKY
    Krill says (16:37):
    yeah
    Memphus says (16:37):
    risky.
    Krill says (16:37):
    unless we need the units
    in which case we lose a promo
    Memphus says (16:37):
    i like it!!!!
    no risk no reward!
    Krill says (16:38):
    Remeber Waterstof
    Memphus says (16:38):
    the 50%?
    Krill says (16:38):
    yes
    Memphus says (16:38):
    that worked out!
    crippled kaz
    Krill says (16:38):
    this might not
    Memphus says (16:38):
    haha
    Krill says (16:38):
    we need to keep an eye on Kazs power
    Memphus says (16:38):
    i wouldn't say it is 50-50[color]


    Spoiler :


    My view is that we should try for the city; we want to take out the axes no matter what, so Kaz don't know what we are doing.

    NB. It is possible to kill both Kaz axes and abandon both chariots, leaving the axes and settlers directly north of the chariots, AND get the city settled on t108. That's risky, but it means we don't chop out the 4th worker, instead going straight to the settler. We're 1 worker turn short of getting that to work out though.
     
  2. Strow

    Strow Chieftain

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    I like the idea of this single city front and creating more growth for TKY. Do we have enough military to take out those axes on the hills?
     
  3. Dreylin

    Dreylin Cousin Itt!

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    So if we attack the Axes early with no backup, we not only risk losing the Chariots to any unseen Kaz units, but we'd just lose the Hills again, right? Seems to me like we should do this right and attack with sufficient force to minimse the chance of losing units and secure the hills - even if only for the turn we need to get the new city in place. If we sacrifice an extra forest or two to that plan, it still lets TKY concentrate on infrastructure potentially earlier than if we have to defend a two-city front for longer.
     
  4. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Yeah Basically here are the options:

    1. Do Nothing Fight Kaz from TKY and DT.

    2. Press With Chariots (risking them) But get City on T108

    3. Press with Chariots & Backup (via Workers) So that After we have on each hill:
    1 Wounded Chariot, 1 Axe, 1 Spear
    This However Means the city can't be dropped until ~T111

    I know I want to Do option 3.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    No matter what we can attack the axes on t107, and take the hills with the axe/spear stacks; that much I think is a no brainer. The main question is a) do we want teh city and b) if so, where do we get the settler. CK and less military units, or TKY and less forests to chop.

    PS for Dreylin. End of Session formal was boring. the Librarian (Tim Fowler in case you knew him) got honourary Full Colours.
     
  6. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    I REALLY like option 3!

    It forces Kaz to concede defeat in this war, because it makes a counter attack nearly impossible to pull off.
     
  7. Dreylin

    Dreylin Cousin Itt!

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    Well I say b) TKY
    Nope, he started after my time there ... not that I think I knew the College Librarian when I was there. Though that does bring back memories of being the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Society Head Librarian; they're not as tollerant of scratching yourself in the Reference Section in my current job. :eek:
     
  8. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Why? (I'm still thinking about it...)

    Hahaha.
     
  9. Dreylin

    Dreylin Cousin Itt!

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    Two reasons:

    Speed - imo even a turn will make a difference.

    Military - If CK builds the Settler, TKY is going to be on Infra not Military; but going for this city site it is an offensive move against Kaz, and likely to provoke a response. We need to be ready for that response.
     
  10. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Point: are we going to be pressing and further south though? The units that CK can build are: LB, chariots, swords, axes, spears, archers. Arguably only longbows and spears are worth building until we can build HA/cats/eles ourselves. The settler is worth 2 LB, the first would get into the city t112, the second t114. If Kaz push us and try to attack with cats/HA how should we defend?
     
  11. mostly-harmless

    mostly-harmless Chieftain

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    Have we any agreement with Cav in place that prevents us to settle further south? Can't remember, just thought I read it somewhere.

    mh
     
  12. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    That is the risk. (Less military if CK builds the settler. )No Risk no reward. (See My chat with Krill) We have to take above average risks (waterstof anyone) Because it is a 3 v 2. So to me anything that has a 40% chance of working we go for.

    The Reward? Why we wanted TKY (and DT) in the first place. It is a gold mine city. The faster it gets up to speed the Sooner we arn't relying on our core for troops in that area. Right now The Western "colony" (TKY, DT and proposed city) needs to be supported from the core. The sooner they support themselves the better we are.

    Less military if CK builds the settler. But long term it pays off in that those cities start contributing to the empire instead of draining.

    My Plan would be this Push Kaz back again and get this city with a Settler from CK. Then get peace. We can't hit their core with the unit completement we have.

    My bet is they are building a settler to try and block us. So killing the axes is critical. the slower settler also gives us more time to asses the layof the land down there, and possibly change the city site.

    Worst Case Scenairo (Kaz actually get into the war) and the chop :hammers: in TKY go to units. Yes we lose the promo from CK, but we gain on travel time. That is the risk. One we should take.
     
  13. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    We (I) I have stated in chats that if Cav left Kaz deals (which they didn't) that we would commit to not settling any further SW (into thier area)

    Notice the "SW" part is key because we do plan on settling west. Just not "SW" :D

    *We (I) also said had kaz just given us Angle (TKY) that we would of stopped expanding South into thier land. But that never happened :evil:
     
  14. Dreylin

    Dreylin Cousin Itt!

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    True, and Kaz also elected not to accept the Peace offer which we made (not surprisingly), but also not to propose one of their own, which is perhaps more surprising.
     
  15. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Look at it from Kaz' perspective; they have CS and MC, so are 1 tech from maces, and we don't have HBR or construction, so are roughly 900 beakers from war eles which we need to compete. They probably think they can build a large enough stack to take back TKY...which is where the Wheat city comes into play.
     
  16. Strow

    Strow Chieftain

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    Im for the city and the sooner the better but Ill leave the risk up to the pros here. Sooner or later we will poke them too much and they will come with some for of "stack" against us.
     
  17. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I like the idea of killing the axes, but it's hard for me to believe that they will leave 2 axes hanging out vulnerable to chariots for too long. So we'll see what the situation is in 5 turns.
     
  18. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    (Pics from Memphus)



    AT: sure, they could cover with spears. Nothing we can do about that apart from trying to kill the axes before they cover.
     
  19. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, new method of doing it. Gives Kaz 1 extra turn to get defenses in place, and shows them the settler; it still hides the chariots and workers, but gets the city settled t108 and the hills taken t108.

    Spoiler :
    Krill says (01:38):
    oh wow
    when you get back, I think I have a humdinger of an idea, if we are ballsy
    Krill says (01:40):
    We can show them the settler moving up on t108
    well
    t107
    plant the city
    use the road that it provides
    Krill says (01:41):
    move 2 workers through to road - back to normal
    that's risky
    Krill says (01:48):
    BTW
    if we pull this off
    I really want to tell Kazthat they should have taken teh path of Daylight
    Memphus says (01:53):
    haha yup
    that will be the email
    i love the idea of showing them the settler
    then on the enxt turn running workers through and smahing them with chariots
    Krill says (01:54):
    Don;t actually need to get out the fourth worker then
    Memphus says (01:54):
    . .. .. .. .!
    that is sick
    ok that is the plan
    Krill says (01:55):
    so, settle t108
    kill t108
    need to get teh chariots healed up asap
    need to finish roading with the worker on the hill
    and move 1 worker to the forest NE of TKY and one SE of TKY
    Krill says (01:56):
    t104 chop*3
    t105 chop*3
    t106 move 2 workers SE of the deforested hill
    along with the settler and defensive units
    third worker irrigates the corn
    Krill says (01:57):
    t107 road with 2 workers, move settler, defensive units and the axe/spear stacks onto the future city tile
    t108 road the tiles needed, smash, take hte hills
    move up sentry chariot as required


    Basically, chop the settler out of TKY.

    t106, move the settler, city defenses and the axe/spear stack and 2 workers onto the tile E SE of TKY.

    t107, road with 2 workers, move the chariots onto the workers, move the defense and axe/spears onto the future city tile.

    t108, settle the city, move the workers onto the required tile, road, kill the axes with the chariots, move the axes/spears onto the hills/chariots et voil√°, hills are ours 1 turns later but hte city is down way sooner, and the corn is hooked t108 as well.

    Basic trade is we show Kaz that we are about to make a city, but keep the fact we are about to wipe out their units hidden. Smoke and mirrors...because there is no way they can play through zuurstof on a forest, as well as 2 extra axes and spears as well as an archer (could be longbow).
     
  20. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    This is genius in the making. On so many levels!
     

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