TSG13 After Action Report

[drubell]

331

From the picture, things are progressing as you’d imagine. I bought Bucharest (and Florence at the same time since Bucharest took over Florence). I’m keeping Seoul my ally as well, and I also bought Monaco which is way over near Egypt. The last space part will finish in 3 turns (and I think I timed the part productions pretty well). Seoul, Florence, and Bucharest were bought to be buffer states to stop Washington before he would swarm me again. As shown, it’s being successful and he won’t be to hit me before I launch.

I considered buying Bucharest earlier but it was under Arabian control and didn’t want to piss him off by buying it. He lost control right as I needed him to.

Wu was wiped off the map by Arabia a while ago, and he’s friendly with me so I’m thankful for that. He has the Manhattan Project and the Apollo Program. I assume he’s also going for space victory but I will beat him to it. Egypt is 5/5/5/5/2, so I was narrowly able to win that too. He’s working on Rationalism (which doesn’t make sense to me because he has filled in Piety) What I don’t understand is why he decided to grab Anjar at whenever point he did; I think taking that city really slowed his cultural press down (unless puppeted cities don’t count toward the extra culture for SP? I don’t know). I’m assuming Washington is going for domination. He’s sent some units down, but Nationalism really helped my mechs destroy them. The huge swarm shown in this picture, however, would’ve just been a complete disaster if I let him by not buying Bucharest. I don’t know what Oda’s doing; he’s not pushing for any victory that I see!

334

I get my next SP this turn, but who cares since I have my last part to my capital? I launch in 1914. I think it was my best science victory and was only the second game I’ve played on Emperor, but I felt I made a lot of crucial errors which really lagged my game. I was going very well until the first DoW from Wu. I played the game out after my win and it was only going to be 5 more turns before Washington took Bucharest, finished off Rome, and then would turn to destroy me.

Actually, I was surprised about all the DoW. This was my second Emperor game, and on my first, I didn’t get DoW’d once (continents map). There was only one time I saw units near my troops in that particular game, but was able to bribe someone else to go to war with that civ and those units left immediately. I tried bribing civs to war in this game and I got DoW anyway so I don’t know if the bribe was even effective. Still, it’s possible my bribe with Wu to DoW Arabia was why Arabia destroyed her, and my bribe with Washington to declare on Rome was why he went to finish off Rome before me. I did not make a DoF with anyone at all in this game (which I think helped my diplo more than it would’ve hurt), and only denounced/DoWed Wu.

So what could I have done better? Was my city placement off? Perhaps I could have put Lampang next to the mountain for an observatory, but the production in that city was pretty bad overall, so maybe I shouldn’t have made it at all. I put a lot of focus on Currency and markets early, perhaps that was a bad move? I also never RA blocked which I think I could’ve done at Rifling. It wasn’t until very late I started paying for city-states states, which meant I didn’t play too well to my UA, especially when I was buying happiness buildings when I could’ve just bought a city-state for the extra culture too. By the end of the game, aside from Literacy, I was had the worst demographics (not counting Rome of course with only a pop 3 city), which is frustrating because at Turn 100 I had the best growth and wealth and was pretty middle-of-the-pack with everything else. The only time I actually needed to spend time warring was just about 10 turns with Wu and about the same with Washington, so the only thing that stopped me from finishing sooner was my own choices in infrastructure.

Sorry for this very long play-by-play journal, but am hoping that some players would like to look at how I played because this typically is how I play most of my games in general and would like to improve.

 

[DaveMcW]

I moved the captial NW. Build order was: Scout, (purchase worker), Settler, Warrior, Scout, Library, National College. Second city built: (purchase worker), Library, Settler. I stole 2 workers from Bucharest and 1 from a barb camp.

Spoiler Turn 58 screenshot :

I went straight for Landed Elite, and didn't build a single culture building besides Wats. With two cultural city-state allies, that was enough to get Scholasticism and Scientific Revolution. I bought most of my luxury tiles to hook them up faster.

I used 2 early research agreements to unlock Wats. They were built at turns 92, 97, 106. I generated 5 great scientists by the end.

My main focus in the first 80 turns was growth. I always saved enough luxuries to keep positive happiness, and spent 1500 gold on maritime city-states before buying more research agreements.

The midgame was all about research agreements. I consistently had 5-6 going at once. I borrowed gold and loaned gold like crazy to make the deals work. I had over 200 completed deals by the end of the game. Since there was about 5 turns between each RA, I had time to block techs as needed to steer them along the spaceship path.

I eventually conquered Bucharest to complete 2 city-state quests. That complicated my relations with almost everyone, especially Harun and Ramsses who also coveted my wonders and victory condition. I think it might have been more profitable just to buy the city-states directly.

Washington picked a fight over my coal city, but my 2 initial warriors, now 100xp longswordsmen, held him off easily.

Spoiler Turn 181 screenshot :

Production was definitely the limiting factor in the endgame. I used 3 scientists to unlock Apollo Program early, but I could have cut 10 turns off my finish date if I used twice that many. I eventually used 2 scientists for golden ages in a belated attempt to balance out science and production.

 

[Half Nelson]

Just uploaded my game and listed as Science wrong VC:- what does this mean?

 

[leif erikson]

Just uploaded my game and listed as Science wrong VC:- what does this mean?

We'll look into it.

Did you get a summary of the upload or is that the only message the system provided?

 

[Half Nelson]

I have a very slow broadband connection but the upload seemed fine. Got upload notification and email, both saying "Science wrong VC". The game details (turn 304 etc) look correct.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, thanks. I've left a note asking Alan to check on it.

 

[AlanH]

Sorry about that. I updated the games database to add TSG 14, and set the new VC requirement on this game instead of 14.

Now fixed, and I've updated the "wrong VC" submissions to correct them as well.

 

[Half Nelson]

OK, thanks! I thought perhaps I had completely misread the game scenario!!

 

[numaru7]

331

Sorry for this very long play-by-play journal, but am hoping that some players would like to look at how I played because this typically is how I play most of my games in general and would like to improve.

it's not a matter of improving...it's a matter of style. For example, i'm the always War kind of guy and those clusters of units(except that at the end from America) didn't scare me at all with the amount of units you had.
Personally in this game i went for the free settler and made the 2-nd city just like you, the 3-rd NW of the marble - which also forced rome to build in the direction of america and the 4-th east of the 2-nd city on the coast 1 tile away from the river so i could steal the cow/iron/gold from Wu across the channel - that pissed her off but what can she do when there's only 1(one) tile through which she can bring units in.

The rest was easy enough because i made a bunch of military units and conquered rome and washington, the last of which also gave me 7 coal. So i got a lot of gold(3000+) from conquering in the beginning, plus killing barbs for CS's which i didn't use to rushbuy anything, but ally city states - all the game those on my subcontinent were my allies, which brought me a lot of culture which i used for the +1/+3/+5 hammer policies. I finished in 1949, without micro on land or anything fancy(i generally use default/prod focus and that's it).


Also i like to play weird map settings like Sandstorm/legendary start(or sparse resources) - or pangeea/high sea lvl/3 bil years/arid/rain - weird maps come out

 

[Half Nelson]

Victory at my typical pedestrian pace (20h 27min!):- I slowed down particularly in this game as I tried to force a win in under 300 turns, but I left my micromanipulation too late. Settled 4 cities early (1NW capital, then N near marble, E on coast for gems, W on coast) and had Wats (via Legalism) at turn 110. Completed NC shortly after that. Was very pleased at this point but RAs dried up as the AIs slugged out war after war and always seemed short of cash. I built a fifth city on the E river for luxuries and control of the choke point. Captured Antium and Rome after Caesar DOW (leaving them one city):- these were my only long-term puppets. I completed only one wonder (GL from a Meritocracy GE) but eventually managed 12 complete RA (also 2 broken by DOW) and produced 7 GS. I missed out on the Porcelain Tower. I became allied with 4 nearby CS (annoying that most were hostile) and Arabia bought up the others. Arabia DOW around turn 250 which lasted until my victory. I captured Sydney (one of their allied CS) which resulted in a late Diplo knock from other AI. I used Liberty, Tradition, Patronage and Rationalism policies (reaching Scientific Revolution at turn 280). As the SS parts were being built I DOW on Washington (who had been sniping most of the game and broke a key mid-game RA), captured 2 cities then sold then to Egypt (my only friend by this point) to keep happiness under control. In retrospect, I can see opportunities to easily shave 30 or so turns off my game (earlier scientists; Porcelain Tower) but I think my major mistake was not to take Landed Elite to boost my core population. The five cities worked well for me (no happiness problems, each built at least one SS part). I had no coal problems, a 30 turn coal/oil+iron deal with Arabia was just long enough to complete factories. Arabia and Japan were the major AI players throughout, with Egypt holding up well:- Rome and China were conquered by AI.

 

[drlucifer]

I went through the first 150 turns or so in the Game in Progress thread- basically, rushed GL, built NC, settled 3 more cities, built Stonehenge, got 4 insta-Wats on turn 97, built Oracle.

Happiness and gold problems for a lot of the game, and America/China wars though these were not a problem. Popped 2 GSs from each Wat I believe. Waited too long to bulb Rocketry, but got Apollo on turn 266 and then shaved a few turns off the spaceship parts-building by buying Factories/Spaceship Factory/Stables/Harbor.

I got some coal from Ragusa, had them bought away from me, and got the rest of Egypt I believe.

 

[dribnairb]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
Date submitted: 2011-06-12
Reference number: 24381
Your name: dribnairb
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1973AD
Turns played: 393
Base score: 1121
Final score: 1437
Time played: 6:46:00
Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0393 AD-1973.Civ5Save

I decided to play this with some self imposed restrictions:
No Research Agreements.
No resource trades except for other resources (ie. like for like)
No Legalism/Wat trick

Obviously was a bit strapped for cash in the beginning. Fairly peaceful though. Didn't even find China until quite late on! Having settled NW of the starting hex I couldn't use the seas to explore.
Rome eventually DOW'd. Got distracted trying to take him out. Eventually took his 3 cities and then settled a 3rd city of my own.
America DOW'd for no apparent reason, having been friendly all the time before (and after).

My capital became a production powerhouse (146/turn at the end). I had several wonders (Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Eiffel tower, Sistine Chapel, Statue Liberty, Taj Mahal, Gt Library, Oracle and Porcelain tower.

Egypt and Arabia were ahead most of the game having taken out China and India. They both reached modern and future eras before me. But they kept having brief wars which seemed to keep them busy.
Eventually Egypt DOW'd on me and I couldn't persuade Arabia to join me (Arabia built Apollo then seemed to give up on winning that way). The other remaining civs (Japan and America) were way behind. Fortunately I had allied lots of CS and kept adding more to keep Egypt occupied.

Around turns 330-350 it was obvious I would win unless Egypt could take my capital, and he had enough of an army to do it. Ramesses then popped up offering peace! Ok, he wanted 3 puppets. But if I'd accepted that it would have become a foregone conclusion. So I added another restriction that I wouldn't accept peace from him unless if I was in his position I would have accepted it (ie. never)

He then nuked me. Two or three times I think. But I held on, losing one city the same turn I finished Particle Physics. My few remaining units could stop him getting too close to my capital while I finished the SS engine. Having said that, he didn't attack me as much as I thought he would. Took him quite a while to get through Venice and Sydney and the only sea invasion consisted of three units I took out in one turn.

All in all I enjoyed this game more than most. I wasn't certain of victory for most of the game but always felt there was a chance. About half way through I was reading some of the "in progress" thread and felt I was waaaay behind most people, but given the restrictions I don't think it was too bad

 

[Tabarnak]

Some paths observed(no handicaping restrictions uncluded) :

1. NC first, Tradition, no legalism trick
2. NC first, Tradition, legalism trick
3. NC first, Liberty, 3-4 cities, no legalism trick
4. NC first, Liberty, 3-4 cities, legalism trick
5. Cities first, Tradition, no legalism trick
6. Cities first, Tradition, legalism trick
7. Cities first, Liberty, no legalism trick
8. Cities first, Liberty, legalism trick

 

[Muaziz]

I replayed the game another two times to try out some different things (my original games are detailed in my earlier posts).

My 3rd game focused on settling a 4th city to the W of the capital (slightly W of where Iron pops up). This games me an extra free Wat which potentially translates into an extra Great Scientist before the game is over. It also gives me an extra city to help build Spaceship parts.

I assume that the optimal strategy for Science games is to get to Rocketry ASAP since the Apollo Program takes a while to build. Then you want to get to Robotics and Satellites pretty quickly. The former because you need 3 Boosters, and the latter because it is the easiest of the "expensive" SS parts to build.

In a 3-city game, your SS parts usually are built as follow (cities ranked in terms of productive capacity):
city-1: Cockpit, Engine
city-2: Booster, Stasis Chamber
city-3: Booster, Booster

In a 4-city game, you have some more flexibility. Usually something like:
city-1: Booster, Engine
city-2: Booster, Stasis Chamber
city-3: Cockpit
city-4: Booster

At least that how it worked out for me. The trick of course is to power through the end of the Tech Tree with as many RAs (assuming tech blocking) and Great Scientists as possible. This is much harder said than done. It is incredibly difficult to plan something this complex 50+ turns in advance, especially with all the moving parts of trades and wars. Some of my replays were focused on trying to tighten my planning ability.

My fastest finish in all 5 games was turn 237. My finishes were 237, 239, 237, 249, and 255 (in reverse order). Obviously knowing the map and what to expect helps a lot in subsequent replays.

Looking at DaveMcW's turn 219 finish was much faster than anything I could muster with free Wats. Without replaying it again, it's hard to know how much of this difference is Dave's superior play (he does finish first every time for a reason), and how much of it was his approach (no early culture buildings and no free Wats).

I have a couple of observations that I jotted down while playing. Here they are in no particular order:

1) Apparently Stables give a +15% production bonus when building SS components. I guess they technically are "Land Units" in a way...

2) Most folks probably know about this, but I found it out by complete chance in one of these games. It is possible to pop to different Great Persons from the same city on a given turn if they both reach the threshold on the same turn. Note that this will ONLY work if they are in the same city (because cities seem to process their turn effects in the order in which they were built). Being able to pop a GS and a GE late in the game without having to wait the extra +100 increment can be very useful. Not that after the two Great People pop, the GP counter is correctly increased by 200.

3) Why do Embarked military units (which are like sitting ducks when traveling in the oceans) blockade cities? This seems wrong to me. I feel like only offensive naval units (not Embarked units, except maybe amphibious ones) should be able to blockade.

4) One small "trick" I use when growing cities and about to run into Unhappiness is to have my cities "Avoid Growth" and reach the cap. Then once they are all at the cap, un-click "Avoid Growth" on them all which will allow all of them to grow on that turn. By doing this, you don't run into the -75% pop growth issue which sometimes prevents one of your cities from growing when you thought it might otherwise.

 

[pontias]

1st emperor win.
1st Science win.

Forgot to save though afterwards.

Turn 363. 1943.
score 1592.

Made a lot of mistakes - especially getting loads of unhappiness. don't know why i expanded like i did...
Learned a lot though. thanks for all the info everyone is posting - really helps.

bring on the next one!

 

[Tabarnak]

The beauty of the game showed from DaveMcW is that he can extract all the little things that we have difficulties to put together in the same game. The strongest part, i think, come from the 2 cultural CS allies. He got scholasticism soon enough and was be able to get scientific revolution in time despite all these policies taken.

I will check more attentively CS allying in next games. When i play multiplayer, i only see extra meat(puppets)... not used to see them like real powerful allies.

Not going for the legalism trick is i think a better way to play this map. Landed Elite can do some miracles for long term strats. Hard building universities seem more optimal than buying them(at least 1 only) to be able to ally more CS and/or sign more RAs.

Map is well suited for RA spamming.

You need 2 strong cities for last 2 parts. You need to discover both techs on same turn and start building them at the same time(what i couldn't do because of lack of hammers, wars, etc).

Have you only tried the legalism trick in your test games Muaziz?

 

[Muaziz]

Have you only tried the legalism trick in your test games Muaziz?

Yes, in all 5 of my games I did the Legalism trick. They weren't all complete games from turn 1 since I wanted to try out some different things at various key junctions in the game.

After TSG14, I'll probably go back and play it one more time as I would have done a "normal" game.

 

[Greatsword]

I expected coal, oil and aluminium (and uran) to be far away in foreign lands. So I decided to conquer the continent early; buidling military, not wats. I brought down rome, america, arabia and egypt, but left them with to one/two cities for future RA. With my puppets gold I bought all city states (conquered bucarest). Educated Elite got me 3 (or 4?) great artists and one great scientist.

 

[godotnut]

@ DaveMcW: Nice win as usual. The main thing I learned from your post is the large number of RAs needed for really early wins. I can't decide whether to try to master this strat or ignore it, since I dislike the one-size-fits-all play style, and I very much hope tech blocking and overall RA balance issues are taken care of in the next patch.

Mind if I ask a couple questions? Did you build any wonders? Get any great people besides scientists? Also, did you finish the game with just those three cities?

 

[Muaziz]

Did you build any wonders? Get any great people besides scientists? Also, did you finish the game with just those three cities?

In Science and sometimes Diplo games you tend to build the Porcelain Tower for the free GS.

In Science games, I sometimes try to build some of these wonders: Great Library (free tech), Hagia Sophia (+33% generation of great people -- since Science games last a while and you will want a lot of GSs), Statue of Liberty (+1 Production for every Specialist in all Cities).

Getting Great Scientists and Scientific Revolution (for 2 Free Techs towards the end) are really important.

In a Diplo game, you will also want to get one Great Engineer to boost the United Nations. In a Science game, a GE cannot boost the Apollo Program or any SpaceShip parts, so most folks don't get a GE unless they get an early one for a Manufactory using the Meritocracy (free GP in the Liberty tree). Not sure how many folks use this latter approach, and I personally have not tried it myself.