Wouldn't feel bad, you're not the only one. Me included... 
TSG27 After Action Report
- Thread starter leif erikson
- Start date
@Formivore. In hindsight, I concur about more cities. The coastal pearls spot was free for some time in my game and I would have grabbed it if not for the Culture VC. A big advantage of doing this only dawned on me when I researched Navigation:- a couple of triremes upgraded to frigates would have been extremely handy. My simplistic (and perhaps incorrect) view on city number is that:- if it gives more than 10% of your total culture (assuming you have the relevant Liberty policy), then there is a net gain in policy accrual. My problem was largely one of growth and a lack of citzens to work Landmarks.
Playing around with my last savegame, I eventually experimented with using a citadel to stem the German hordes:- I hadn't tried one before but, guarded by a level 3 drill LS supported by logistic crossbows, it makes mincemeat of cavalry. By switching entirely to city growth, I also managed to add a couple of Parisiennes to populate the museum I popped from Legalism. This allowed me to dip under 10 turns per policy at turn 180 with my 3 cities.
Playing around with my last savegame, I eventually experimented with using a citadel to stem the German hordes:- I hadn't tried one before but, guarded by a level 3 drill LS supported by logistic crossbows, it makes mincemeat of cavalry. By switching entirely to city growth, I also managed to add a couple of Parisiennes to populate the museum I popped from Legalism. This allowed me to dip under 10 turns per policy at turn 180 with my 3 cities.
Since your cultural output is increasing over time, that 10% increase in cost gets "inflated away" to something like a 4% increase in turns, which is the relevant variable. An extra city is producing its own culture and possibly an extra great artist, so it's more like a 0-2% increase in turns. At that level of significance, it should be typical CiV economic/diplomatic concerns that predominate, not policy costs. What is the ideal number of cities you want in an space/diplo game, something like 4-8? A cultural game takes what on average 30-40 turns longer than a space/diplo game? This means that extra cities actually have a longer time to pay off economically. All the extra happy you get from piety/freedom also makes it easier to support more cities.
Getting enough food to work artist slots and landmarks is really difficult. Unlike a science/diplo victory you have 4 specialist slots to fill. The freedom policy will halve the food those artists take up, but you still have to grow those pop points in the first place. I don't know if its possible to do this in a timely manner without maritimes while still getting all the necessary infrastructure up. Maybe by working a lot of farms and getting aqueducts ASAP it is possible.
@Formivore. In hindsight, I concur about more cities. The coastal pearls spot was free for some time in my game and I would have grabbed it if not for the Culture VC. A big advantage of doing this only dawned on me when I researched Navigation:- a couple of triremes upgraded to frigates would have been extremely handy. My simplistic (and perhaps incorrect) view on city number is that:- if it gives more than 10% of your total culture (assuming you have the relevant Liberty policy), then there is a net gain in policy accrual. My problem was largely one of growth and a lack of citzens to work Landmarks.
I did what you suggest and captured Berlin, but then realised - it is an inland sea and my 4 duoble fire promoted frigates are worthless
I did what you suggest and captured Berlin, but then realised - it is an inland sea and my 4 duoble fire promoted frigates are worthless
i really hate when you find that large-ish mass of water ISNT an ocean. it's just so crushing after so much infrastructure has been spent on it.
i think when you unlock railroads, seaports should let you transport over land sea vessels to other cities with seaports just for that kind of situation.
i think when you unlock railroads, seaports should let you transport over land sea vessels to other cities with seaports just for that kind of situation.
Just after losing my only conquest in the game: Genoa, snagged with a lurking knight about 20 turns before when it was down to 1 hp. Soon after this gunships tore me apart, suddenly those mountains werent stopping anyone. 
Fighting Siam, Arabs and Germany at once. But it was Germany's ability to get to my rear and take out my ranged units that broke me. I think i needed some more land units, well promoted and placed in a series of forts to stop his gunships sneaking in. Also no answer for his airpower and Arab/Saim backstabs did not help either. Not grabbing that pearl spot was crucial, even though i made a best of my secondary location and slaughtered more them 100 artillery with my lancers. But road upkeep costs were eating my alive.
replaying now with a quick rush for Germany, and it is a very different game. Dowed by both germany and Iroquis, but fended them both off for lucrative peace deals. Then Germans DoW me as soon as peace expires, sending me into unhappiness but lose a small city just west of Iroquis cap. Now stalled at Hamburg, just north of Berlin. Pearl city holding the souther front, and a lone trireme drowning the lemmings. Germany still has tech lead and i i dont break through soon it will be more of the same i think.
Fighting Siam, Arabs and Germany at once. But it was Germany's ability to get to my rear and take out my ranged units that broke me. I think i needed some more land units, well promoted and placed in a series of forts to stop his gunships sneaking in. Also no answer for his airpower and Arab/Saim backstabs did not help either. Not grabbing that pearl spot was crucial, even though i made a best of my secondary location and slaughtered more them 100 artillery with my lancers. But road upkeep costs were eating my alive.Spoiler :
replaying now with a quick rush for Germany, and it is a very different game. Dowed by both germany and Iroquis, but fended them both off for lucrative peace deals. Then Germans DoW me as soon as peace expires, sending me into unhappiness but lose a small city just west of Iroquis cap. Now stalled at Hamburg, just north of Berlin. Pearl city holding the souther front, and a lone trireme drowning the lemmings. Germany still has tech lead and i i dont break through soon it will be more of the same i think.
Monthar
Deity
I'm fairly certain you meant to post that in the TSG26 thread. This is the TSG27 thread.
Moderator Action: No problem, I moved it over for him.
I didn't have my autosaves set correctly to be able to capture my loss and officially submit the game, but my horrible run ended in a turn 97 defeat. Went with the 2 city build to keep culture costs low. After holding back the Germans for 50 turns, they hit with a sneak amphibious attack from the East. Lost Stonehenge by 2 turns, didn't try for the Oracle. Managed to get 7 policies before being wiped out. Definitly need more cities and a larger military for deity in the future.
TandooriChicken
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 34
This was my first attempt at Deity. I have learned quite a bit, both from practice games with these conditions and from watching MadDjinn's and Wainy's deity LP's on YouTube. Additionally, a lot of the posts on this forum have been helpful, particularly regarding some of the technical details of research agreement optimization.
Needless to say, I lost miserably the first time. Tried for a peaceful build game... then discovered what a charmer Mr. Bismarck is. After some research, thought, and way too many hours of practice games, I came to the conclusion that to overcome the deity AI's massive bonuses (as far as I can tell, they grow, produce, and tech approximately twice as fast as the player; their massive population growth is just awesome to behold) requires maximizing the benefits of the human's innate advantages: military tactical superiority and the ability to pursue a focused strategy.
Interestingly, the very aspect of the map that makes Germany manageable in a defensive war (the mountain range) also removes a primary tool of AI management, the early rush. Berlin is clearly the best candidate for such a rush, but is functionally unreachable in a useful timeframe. So far, I have had moderate success (i.e., I was on pace to win the game until Arabia backstabbed me) by sticking my warrior in the chokepoint between the Baltic Sea (big lake) and the westernmost mountain, allowing me to settle the 2xPearl+Gem spot and keep the key defensive squares within my cultural borders. I could have saved a lot of resources by using my first GG for a citadel in that chokepoint instead of popping him for a pointlessly early golden age.
Long story short, I did a lot of things right in my current version, but I forgot to maintain DOF with Arabia and pissed him off by buddying with Siam while they were at war, so he showed up on my southeastern doorstep while my military was elsewhere and I lost my (Sistine Chapel-containing) fourth city. Back to the drawing board, but I think I stand a good chance of winning next time if I can find a way to either manage the Arabians diplomatically or fortify the Gold/Silver SE city more effectively. Citadel will go up in the SW chokepoint as soon as I get first GG. I will make sure to keep my military more updated this time. I successfully used the Masonry bottleneck to median-shift through acoustics, but then I got a little sloppy. This time, I will focus on military tech as soon as I hit Opera Houses. Can't decide whether to use Legalism for Opera Houses or hard-build them and save it for museums. Thoughts?
Also, LOL at the idiot AI for sending so many land units into the Baltic unprotected. My trireme got to Targeting III just by eating Landsknechts and Knights.
Last question: has anyone been able to get the National College gambit to work in this game and if so how?
Needless to say, I lost miserably the first time. Tried for a peaceful build game... then discovered what a charmer Mr. Bismarck is. After some research, thought, and way too many hours of practice games, I came to the conclusion that to overcome the deity AI's massive bonuses (as far as I can tell, they grow, produce, and tech approximately twice as fast as the player; their massive population growth is just awesome to behold) requires maximizing the benefits of the human's innate advantages: military tactical superiority and the ability to pursue a focused strategy.
Interestingly, the very aspect of the map that makes Germany manageable in a defensive war (the mountain range) also removes a primary tool of AI management, the early rush. Berlin is clearly the best candidate for such a rush, but is functionally unreachable in a useful timeframe. So far, I have had moderate success (i.e., I was on pace to win the game until Arabia backstabbed me) by sticking my warrior in the chokepoint between the Baltic Sea (big lake) and the westernmost mountain, allowing me to settle the 2xPearl+Gem spot and keep the key defensive squares within my cultural borders. I could have saved a lot of resources by using my first GG for a citadel in that chokepoint instead of popping him for a pointlessly early golden age.
Long story short, I did a lot of things right in my current version, but I forgot to maintain DOF with Arabia and pissed him off by buddying with Siam while they were at war, so he showed up on my southeastern doorstep while my military was elsewhere and I lost my (Sistine Chapel-containing) fourth city. Back to the drawing board, but I think I stand a good chance of winning next time if I can find a way to either manage the Arabians diplomatically or fortify the Gold/Silver SE city more effectively. Citadel will go up in the SW chokepoint as soon as I get first GG. I will make sure to keep my military more updated this time. I successfully used the Masonry bottleneck to median-shift through acoustics, but then I got a little sloppy. This time, I will focus on military tech as soon as I hit Opera Houses. Can't decide whether to use Legalism for Opera Houses or hard-build them and save it for museums. Thoughts?
Also, LOL at the idiot AI for sending so many land units into the Baltic unprotected. My trireme got to Targeting III just by eating Landsknechts and Knights.
Last question: has anyone been able to get the National College gambit to work in this game and if so how?
lol, quit in turn 47. my first try at deity. my 3rd or 4th try with France for culture vic.
i knew war was inevitable so went completely with units. i had 6: 3 spear, 2 warriors, scout and China brought 5 units at my border (1 warrior, 2 spearman, 2 chariot archers) and i knew a DoW would be the next turn. I figured if i DoW, i'd get the upper hand by attacking first so I did. I had a good defensive position and used 5 of my 6 guys (scout was a move away). I brought 2 of their units to 1 hp (only 1 unit did more than 1 dmg) including a shot from Paris. The next turn, both of those units healed to full. all units counterattacked after a general came into vision and killed 3 of my units in one turn.
that's pretty much game over. all i had left was a wounded spear and warrior, a scout and China had every one of their units. Worst. combat rolls. evar.
so eff that game. i might try again, but geez, how am i supposed to survive that?
i knew war was inevitable so went completely with units. i had 6: 3 spear, 2 warriors, scout and China brought 5 units at my border (1 warrior, 2 spearman, 2 chariot archers) and i knew a DoW would be the next turn. I figured if i DoW, i'd get the upper hand by attacking first so I did. I had a good defensive position and used 5 of my 6 guys (scout was a move away). I brought 2 of their units to 1 hp (only 1 unit did more than 1 dmg) including a shot from Paris. The next turn, both of those units healed to full. all units counterattacked after a general came into vision and killed 3 of my units in one turn.
that's pretty much game over. all i had left was a wounded spear and warrior, a scout and China had every one of their units. Worst. combat rolls. evar.
so eff that game. i might try again, but geez, how am i supposed to survive that?
Archers. Turtle up with a couple archers and let them destroy themselves on your city, then you counter attack.
i got archers done just as they were attacking. i went mining-bronze-masonry-iron (to get into classical) then archers. i also had mediocre luck with ruins. i got 3 ruins, one for +20 culture, one for Barb maps, and one that made the warriors into spears. would have loved for the scout-archer ruins but didnt happen. i also didnt have enough money to upgrade to swords when iron was techd cuz i had to buy tiles to get the iron. oh well.
yer probably right for defense, but i thought lots of units might have been a decent defense too. if i had traded a couple units i would have stayed in the game, but china swept the scores and had 2 really huge heals. had any one of those 1 hp shots been 2 they'd have been gone.
yer probably right for defense, but i thought lots of units might have been a decent defense too. if i had traded a couple units i would have stayed in the game, but china swept the scores and had 2 really huge heals. had any one of those 1 hp shots been 2 they'd have been gone.
lol, 2nd try.
turn 157: You have achieved the level of Dan Quayle.
i really 'lost' at 105. but for some reason, Biz Markie offered peace after 25 rounds of crushing me. I had Orleans left, 1 worker, no units, no gold. Hiawatha then begged for mercy as he was "Afraid" of me. He had 6 cities and a monster army. This went on for 20 more turns before he decided i wasn't worthy of fear. During that time Wu Tang Clan denounced and DoW'd but had no path to get to me. She was joined in public denouncement by Sully. Phylicia Rashad decided he needed my help in a war with Hiawatha and asked for assistance. Candi decided to denounce me.
By this time im just trying to see what happens when i have every tile with a scout in it and no borders left to see what happens when i have a forced stack situation. It turns out it will force BizMarkie to DoW and actually finish me off. I was a lil bummed that i didnt get some infinite bug from having no borders and no room to add the last scout the i made (at -18 gold and no science stuck on Engineering.)
definitely one of the weirdest, random games i played. What got me into the mess was Hiawatha was at war with Bismark and they were battling right at my borders. Bis was a huge threat and took every ounce of land with ridiculous rapid expansion. he had something like 8 cities by turn 100. So like an idiot i decide to join Hiawatha around turn 70 and pounce on Bis. I had 3 horseman, 9 Archers and about to finish a mine. 12 turns into it, Hiawatha makes peace with Bis and immediately DoWs me and they combined take my 2 cities, then double up on Paris. It's like they winked, high-fived each other and launched their secret plan. Bis gets Paris with a Landsneckt. The rest is just silly AI irrationally doing everything like Hiawatha being Afraid of me and Bis offering peace when i had no resources to sweeten the deal other than open borders.
ah well. I achieved the level of Dan Quayle, so there's that.
turn 157: You have achieved the level of Dan Quayle.
i really 'lost' at 105. but for some reason, Biz Markie offered peace after 25 rounds of crushing me. I had Orleans left, 1 worker, no units, no gold. Hiawatha then begged for mercy as he was "Afraid" of me. He had 6 cities and a monster army. This went on for 20 more turns before he decided i wasn't worthy of fear. During that time Wu Tang Clan denounced and DoW'd but had no path to get to me. She was joined in public denouncement by Sully. Phylicia Rashad decided he needed my help in a war with Hiawatha and asked for assistance. Candi decided to denounce me.
By this time im just trying to see what happens when i have every tile with a scout in it and no borders left to see what happens when i have a forced stack situation. It turns out it will force BizMarkie to DoW and actually finish me off. I was a lil bummed that i didnt get some infinite bug from having no borders and no room to add the last scout the i made (at -18 gold and no science stuck on Engineering.)
definitely one of the weirdest, random games i played. What got me into the mess was Hiawatha was at war with Bismark and they were battling right at my borders. Bis was a huge threat and took every ounce of land with ridiculous rapid expansion. he had something like 8 cities by turn 100. So like an idiot i decide to join Hiawatha around turn 70 and pounce on Bis. I had 3 horseman, 9 Archers and about to finish a mine. 12 turns into it, Hiawatha makes peace with Bis and immediately DoWs me and they combined take my 2 cities, then double up on Paris. It's like they winked, high-fived each other and launched their secret plan. Bis gets Paris with a Landsneckt. The rest is just silly AI irrationally doing everything like Hiawatha being Afraid of me and Bis offering peace when i had no resources to sweeten the deal other than open borders.
ah well. I achieved the level of Dan Quayle, so there's that.
My first attempt at replay ended at T139. When my war against bismarck stalled i signed a peace deal and moved my forces to northern front to deal with Wu who DoWed me in the meantime. Arabs use this to backstab me breaking a fresh RA, and then soon after everyone dogpiles me including Hiawatha. It did not take them long to carve me up.
Next try i concentrated on rushing Berlin and not worrying about his other cities. Got bogged down int he same mountain ranges that protected me in first game, lost SMs at berlin gates and got pushed back to pearl city twice. Ready to give this one up as the defence of berlin is climbing up and soon my forces will be obsolete. It seems Bismarck uses the GL slingshot to grab CS and his dreaded landsknechts as he deploys them even before my SM get there. I am thinking of negating the Berlin advantage by taking his city just north of it, and making it a two pronged assault on his cap. I am thinking if I take his two best cities, then i can either turtle again in my 4 or even 5 city homeland and hope for enough RA partners to not fall hopelesly behind in tech, or keep pressing my advantage and take over whats left of germany and go for a warmonger win with a big puppet empire. Big if as i still cant seem to even take Berlin
Next try i concentrated on rushing Berlin and not worrying about his other cities. Got bogged down int he same mountain ranges that protected me in first game, lost SMs at berlin gates and got pushed back to pearl city twice. Ready to give this one up as the defence of berlin is climbing up and soon my forces will be obsolete. It seems Bismarck uses the GL slingshot to grab CS and his dreaded landsknechts as he deploys them even before my SM get there. I am thinking of negating the Berlin advantage by taking his city just north of it, and making it a two pronged assault on his cap. I am thinking if I take his two best cities, then i can either turtle again in my 4 or even 5 city homeland and hope for enough RA partners to not fall hopelesly behind in tech, or keep pressing my advantage and take over whats left of germany and go for a warmonger win with a big puppet empire. Big if as i still cant seem to even take Berlin
back to GOTM27 after GOTM28.
im in the middle of another GS LSM type rush against Germany. ive done it before but burnt too many cities and didnt follow into China or iroquis. A few RA'a out east are no bother but more conquest is needed to be stronger overall, happiness permitting. if there is a next time i might try one policy in Rationalism, however it is a culture game and that 33% piety helps, as does the finisher. it dents teh culture but culture is nothing when its muskets against mech infantry.
im in the middle of another GS LSM type rush against Germany. ive done it before but burnt too many cities and didnt follow into China or iroquis. A few RA'a out east are no bother but more conquest is needed to be stronger overall, happiness permitting. if there is a next time i might try one policy in Rationalism, however it is a culture game and that 33% piety helps, as does the finisher. it dents teh culture but culture is nothing when its muskets against mech infantry.
I was going to try a norther rout this time, but wasted time settling pearl spot again and got Munich there again (just east of pearls), so back to the chokepoint we go. in my fisrts game i couldnt mount an attack but this time I have captured Munich 4 times now only to have it retaken on next turn or two. Lost most of my army to attrition as well, so when Bismarck offered peace for 4 of my luxes, OB and no cities, i took it.
Its only 10 turns of unhappy i figure, and i will be in a better spot. My catapult will be in a fully healed city and i might damage his roads leading into it to bog him down and stop his advance. Also he settled another city on the narrow land strip south of Munich. This made moving units into position much harder. I will try to puppet it as well, and since I only have 3 cities so far, i might annnex Munich so i can get a Trireme in the mix and keep drowning his units until he gets a navy or helicopters. I have a few spots open on my landmass so he might sneak a few settlers in and i will let him. This way i figure i will have a small puppet empire and still be behind chokepoints. Wish me luck, a lot of ifs here
Its only 10 turns of unhappy i figure, and i will be in a better spot. My catapult will be in a fully healed city and i might damage his roads leading into it to bog him down and stop his advance. Also he settled another city on the narrow land strip south of Munich. This made moving units into position much harder. I will try to puppet it as well, and since I only have 3 cities so far, i might annnex Munich so i can get a Trireme in the mix and keep drowning his units until he gets a navy or helicopters. I have a few spots open on my landmass so he might sneak a few settlers in and i will let him. This way i figure i will have a small puppet empire and still be behind chokepoints. Wish me luck, a lot of ifs here
TandooriChicken
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 34
The key to claiming the gems+2x pearl spot on the shores of the Baltic is to just park your warrior on the choke point between the lake and the single mountain. A barb camp tends to spawn just north of the other choke point which will slow down Bismarck's movement in that direction. The Iroquois don't expand aggressively southward, so the northern gems+2x deer spot on the desert hill can be settled last.
I have been basically REXing out to a total of 4 cities (build nothing but warriors and settlers)... those two, and the third one between the SE Gold and Silver (w Grand Mesa in the big hex) before doing anything infrastructure-wise. I have tried the National College gambit a couple times but it seems like it gives the Arabs too much time to settle into your SE flank. I might try a two-city Nat'l College gambit-hybrid since I think I can hold the North and West for awhile without settling them due to geography and lack of AI interest, but that SE city has to be settled in a hurry. Does anyone know off the top of their head how the hammers scale for Natl College with additional cities?
I have been basically REXing out to a total of 4 cities (build nothing but warriors and settlers)... those two, and the third one between the SE Gold and Silver (w Grand Mesa in the big hex) before doing anything infrastructure-wise. I have tried the National College gambit a couple times but it seems like it gives the Arabs too much time to settle into your SE flank. I might try a two-city Nat'l College gambit-hybrid since I think I can hold the North and West for awhile without settling them due to geography and lack of AI interest, but that SE city has to be settled in a hurry. Does anyone know off the top of their head how the hammers scale for Natl College with additional cities?
Made it to turn 303 with a 4 city defensive strategy. Hiawatha won with diplomatic victory.
This was attempt #11 which certainly diminishes the value of it, but still this is the best I've done on Diety to date. I needed 9 more policies and was getting 353 culture per turn. Couldn't get any wonders except the Oracle.
Hiawatha couldn't seem to decide how he wanted to win. He took out both China and Germany. He was 3 policies away from cultural victory and was working on spaceship. Arabia had all the spaceship components complete for 10+ turns but never managed to finish it in time.
I was behind in tech all game, was working on electricity when it ended. My big learning for this game though was that I need to manage my money better. Focus all my cities on food, prod and culture and then was fighting to keep income in positive numbers.
Most fun I had with CIV in a while! Thanks GOTM & Lief!
(Haven't decided yet, may still try again.... )
This was attempt #11 which certainly diminishes the value of it, but still this is the best I've done on Diety to date. I needed 9 more policies and was getting 353 culture per turn. Couldn't get any wonders except the Oracle.
Hiawatha couldn't seem to decide how he wanted to win. He took out both China and Germany. He was 3 policies away from cultural victory and was working on spaceship. Arabia had all the spaceship components complete for 10+ turns but never managed to finish it in time.
I was behind in tech all game, was working on electricity when it ended. My big learning for this game though was that I need to manage my money better. Focus all my cities on food, prod and culture and then was fighting to keep income in positive numbers.
Most fun I had with CIV in a while! Thanks GOTM & Lief!
(Haven't decided yet, may still try again.... )
