TSG51 After Action Report

[Wargizmo]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 51
Date submitted: 2012-12-27
Reference number: 27996
Your name: Wargizmo
Game status: Diplomacy Victory
Game date: 1705AD
Turns played: 251
Base score: 824
Final score: 1648
Time played: 5:06:00
Submitted save: Nebuchadnezzar II_0251 AD-1705.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Wargizmo_C505101.Civ5Save


Went tradition 3 city NC opening into 6 cities. See the in progress thread for my start. Ended up taking patronage opener then rationalism up to free thought then order opener so I could grab an engineer.

When I saw Mongolia was pretty much a goner I decided to go for diplomacy.

My religion ended up failing but it wasn't so bad because Spain's religion had some good bonuses so I basically just gave up on trying to spread my religion and saved my faith for a great engineer for the UN.

Diplomacy wise, believe it or not I was able to stay peaceful the whole game, right up until the last turn when I declared on Darius. The trick was making sure every AI was always at war with someone. I paid Spain lots of money to beat up on both Mongolia and Arabia. Darius was busy with Sweden and eventually I made Spain and Persia fight each other once Mongolia and Sweden had been almost eliminated. I always made sure I had a decent military as well, I think that helped me stay peaceful.

To be honest though this game was a fairly big fluke. The main reason I won was because Darius completed the UN a turn before I was about to, this gave me a ton of gold from the incomplete wonder bonus and in the end it was just enough to get me over the line. That's even with selling just about every building I had in the last 15 turns and using the ultra cheesy tactic of trading all my gold per turn for a lump sum and then declaring war on the last turn after buying up all the city states.

 

[Tabarnak]

Wargizmo! AI manipulation at best!

Some questions : How much cs were available to ally 1 turn before the vote?

How this is working when you have less than 10 cs and don't have any votes from other civs?

Does the number of votes needed drop when you can't theorically get 10+ votes?

Glad that Darius didn't launch before 250 here.

 

[Wargizmo]

Wargizmo! AI manipulation at best!

Some questions : How much cs were available to ally 1 turn before the vote?

How this is working when you have less than 10 cs and don't have any votes from other civs?

Does the number of votes needed drop when you can't theorically get 10+ votes?

Glad that Darius didn't launch before 250 here.

There were exactly 10 city states left, 9 CS ended up voting for me and I got Sweden's vote to make exactly 10, which was apparently the magic number so I only just managed to do it.

screenshot from final turn:

Spoiler :

Darius wasn't even close to launching by the end (I think he only completed 2 or 3 spaceship parts), I think this was partly due to Spain being such a juggernaut in my game and the two of them being at war for most of the game. I also think he was trying to go for diplo because he had like 5 city state allies before I stole them. He could have easily won too because he had like 20k gold. Dumb AI.

 

[Tabarnak]

Hmm so your game followed a ''normal'' path. I asked these because in my game only 7 cs are left so i wonder if it's still possible to win by diplo despite a low cs account.

 

[Halcyan2]

Diplomacy wise, believe it or not I was able to stay peaceful the whole game, right up until the last turn when I declared on Darius. The trick was making sure every AI was always at war with someone. I paid Spain lots of money to beat up on both Mongolia and Arabia. Darius was busy with Sweden and eventually I made Spain and Persia fight each other once Mongolia and Sweden had been almost eliminated. I always made sure I had a decent military as well, I think that helped me stay peaceful.

Paying AI's to war with each other is a major element of my strategy too!

Maybe that's why I've always been found of the Byzantines? The Byzantines commonly used diplomacy to supplement their military efforts (it was alien to the Western Europeans though, who thought it was dishonorable and a sign of weakness).

I've been curious about how Sweden and Mongolia got beaten up. Were there any key turning points in the wars?

In my game, I traded for all of the spare gold of Darius, Gustavus, Isabella, and Harun (they were all Friends with me so they gave me a good rate). Temujin actually had 4000+ gold left, but he was giving me the "poor Friendly" rate. Mongolia didn't even try to bother allying city states (all game, or before the UN vote). Considering his city state aggression, it makes sense. I can only imagine how low his influence resting point was!

That's even with selling just about every building I had in the last 15 turns and using the ultra cheesy tactic of trading all my gold per turn for a lump sum and then declaring war on the last turn after buying up all the city states.

Ha ha. I was also trying to squeeze money out of a stone during the last 10 turns.

Gold focus. Finishing Bank and Stock Exchanges and then producing Gold. Selling everything I could to the AI's. I even deleted most of my units (all my workers, my sad obsolete Warrior and Bowman, etc.). I did consider selling my buildings, but I'm such a perfectionist that I couldn't bring myself to do it! I also placed all of my spies in city states. I pulled off one coup (at 85% likelihood) but the others were too risky so I used gold instead to ally (and let the presence of the spies deter coup attempts by the AI's).

Note that even allying all the city states and DoW'ing *everyone* doesn't necessarily guarantee a victory since it is possible for AI's that you are warring with to still coup your city states (which instantly declare on you!). Right when the last patch came out, I got really pissed when my influence went from about 90 or 100 to NEGATIVE 60 do to a coup.

There were exactly 10 city states left, 9 CS ended up voting for me and I got Sweden's vote to make exactly 10, which was apparently the magic number so I only just managed to do it.

What were the remaining votes (the 10th CS, and Darius/Harun/Isabella's votes)? Poor Temujin, looks like he died!

screenshot from final turn:

Am I seeing that right? Or did Tyre actually take Stockholm? Power to the city states! Kind of sad when a city state probably has a higher score than you (Sweden) do.

 

[Halcyan2]

Hmm so your game followed a ''normal'' path. I asked these because in my game only 7 cs are left so i wonder if it's still possible to win by diplo despite a low cs account.

It's possible if you can get the other major AI's to still vote for you. (7 city states + 3 major AI's, though you can reduce one of these by one if you build the U.N.).

You'll probably want to lay on as many diplomatic modifiers as you can. Give them gold as a gift. Denounce the same leader and possibly share a common foe. If you have a spare Social Policy, you could even change Order / Autocracy / Freedom to nullify a negative and gain a positive.

You can also better your odds by bribing everyone to war with each other right before the vote. I generally find this to be the best option to break up a DoF between two other players. Doesn't always work though - some AI's will be too peaceful and friendly that they won't declare (especially on a friend) at any price. But it doesn't hurt to ask....

Remember that the AI's don't have to *like* you to vote for you. They just have to hate everyone else more than they hate you!

ALTERNATIVELY, you could go with a militaristic backup option with the hopes of liberating enough city states to get the votes you need.

 

[Wargizmo]

Hmm so your game followed a ''normal'' path. I asked these because in my game only 7 cs are left so i wonder if it's still possible to win by diplo despite a low cs account.

I think the key was getting Mongolia out of the picture early on. They were fighting both Spain and Persia and didn't get to conquer as many CS.

I don't think it's possible to win with just 7. In theory you could get the AI votes but I thinkit wwould be pretty much impossible. I was peaceful the whole game and only got one

 

[Tabarnak]

In fact what i really want to know is if it's still possible to win by diplo if number of cs+ number of AIs < 10.

Good points Halcyan, i managed to stay peacefully thanks to some AI manipulations(i didn't send some civs to Persia land though, which is the principal target, only made a triangle war between Mongolia, Spain and Arabia). I had 2 DoF all the time so that would be 2 votes in my pocket i guess.

Is it possible to get votes from non DoFed civs?

 

[ense7en]

In fact what i really want to know is if it's still possible to win by diplo if number of cs+ number of AIs < 10.

Good points Halcyan, i managed to stay peacefully thanks to some AI manipulations(i didn't send some civs to Persia land though, which is the principal target, only made a triangle war between Mongolia, Spain and Arabia). I had 2 DoF all the time so that would be 2 votes in my pocket i guess.

Is it possible to get votes from non DoFed civs?

If you go to victory conditions menu (F8), it will tell you how many votes are needed to win.

 

[Tabarnak]

If you go to victory conditions menu (F8), it will tell you how many votes are needed to win.

Thanks. It means that we can win with less than 10 votes.

What if you set a game with no cs at all?

 

[ense7en]

Thanks. It means that we can win with less than 10 votes.

What if you set a game with no cs at all?

Just tested this.

I set up game with standard (8) civs, NO city states.

You'd need 5 votes to win...good luck

 

[Tabarnak]

Just tested this.

I set up game with standard (8) civs, NO city states.

You'd need 5 votes to win...good luck

Thanks(i don't have the game right now).

I guess it's something like this for standard maps :

5 votes minimum if all cs are inexistent. As soon as 1 or more cs are alive, this scales from 6 to 10.

In fact : (4 + #cs alive) < (cs votes + AI votes) < 11.

 

[Halcyan2]

I think the key was getting Mongolia out of the picture early on. They were fighting both Spain and Persia and didn't get to conquer as many CS.

That definitely makes sense.

I don't think it's possible to win with just 7. In theory you could get the AI votes but I thinkit wwould be pretty much impossible. I was peaceful the whole game and only got one

It's do-able if you play a heavily AI Diplomatic game.

As mentioned, in my game I could have gotten all of the AI votes (if I hadn't stupidly forgotten about Mongolia).

But you're right that it is often very hard to do!

I had 2 DoF all the time so that would be 2 votes in my pocket i guess.

DoF's certainly help, but they're sometimes not enough (especially if the AI's are also friends with each other). You may also need to add on additional positive modifiers (even with your DoF partners) and/or get the AI's to all hate each other.

Is it possible to get votes from non DoFed civs?

Yes, definitely. I've done this a lot in the past.

A DoF is a significant positive modifier in your favor, but it isn't required. If you layer on enough other positive modifiers, you can still get their vote (even without a DoF). Or if they really hate everyone else (most commonly if they have been denounced, have denounced, or at war with everyone else).

In addition, sometimes it might be best to *not* have an official DoF with a civilization that is hated by everyone else because it would give you negatives with everyone else. In my game, even if Temujin had offered a DoF, I wouldn't necessarily have taken it because it would have given me a diplomatic penalty with everyone else.

In fact : (4 + #cs alive) < (cs votes + AI votes) < 11.

Could you please explain this a bit more? I'm not quite following. Thanks!

 

[Clause]

in his game cahokia, marrakech, n venice still exist. Most of my games 3 of those were gone near industrial.

 

[Tabarnak]

Could you please explain this a bit more? I'm not quite following. Thanks!

Oops sorry for the confusion I forgot something important :

MIN((4 + #cs alive) < (cs votes + AI votes) < 11)

0 cs alive = at least 5 AIs votes needed
(edit) 1 cs alive = at least 5 AIs votes + 1 cs or 6 AIs votes needed
(edit) 2 cs alive = at least 5 AIs + 2 cs votes or 6 AIs + 1 cs votes or 7 AIs votes needed
And so on...

 

[Wargizmo]

Mongolia was fighting with both Spain and Persia for most of the game. Sweden got hammered by Persia. I had Spain fight Arabia too but nothing much got conquered othertthan Arabia liberated Venice (hence why I only got 9 CS votes).

Selling buildings I think is definitely better than selling units, you get more money and units are still useful for defence and deterrent. Once you get the tech for UN there's not much point keeping science buildings and similar story with culture buildings once you get your last possible social policy. Factories and workshops are also very expensive to maintain.

Regarding the final votes all the AI voted for Sweden except Persia who voted for Arabia. And yes, Stockholm was liberated by Tyre. The CS won't raze if it's a capital, quite hilarious, in fact Tyre was worth about 20 happiness because of all the luxuries

Paying AI's to war with each other is a major element of my strategy too!

Maybe that's why I've always been found of the Byzantines? The Byzantines commonly used diplomacy to supplement their military efforts (it was alien to the Western Europeans though, who thought it was dishonorable and a sign of weakness).

I've been curious about how Sweden and Mongolia got beaten up. Were there any key turning points in the wars?

In my game, I traded for all of the spare gold of Darius, Gustavus, Isabella, and Harun (they were all Friends with me so they gave me a good rate). Temujin actually had 4000+ gold left, but he was giving me the "poor Friendly" rate. Mongolia didn't even try to bother allying city states (all game, or before the UN vote). Considering his city state aggression, it makes sense. I can only imagine how low his influence resting point was!



Ha ha. I was also trying to squeeze money out of a stone during the last 10 turns.

Gold focus. Finishing Bank and Stock Exchanges and then producing Gold. Selling everything I could to the AI's. I even deleted most of my units (all my workers, my sad obsolete Warrior and Bowman, etc.). I did consider selling my buildings, but I'm such a perfectionist that I couldn't bring myself to do it! I also placed all of my spies in city states. I pulled off one coup (at 85% likelihood) but the others were too risky so I used gold instead to ally (and let the presence of the spies deter coup attempts by the AI's).

Note that even allying all the city states and DoW'ing *everyone* doesn't necessarily guarantee a victory since it is possible for AI's that you are warring with to still coup your city states (which instantly declare on you!). Right when the last patch came out, I got really pissed when my influence went from about 90 or 100 to NEGATIVE 60 do to a coup.




What were the remaining votes (the 10th CS, and Darius/Harun/Isabella's votes)? Poor Temujin, looks like he died!



Am I seeing that right? Or did Tyre actually take Stockholm? Power to the city states! Kind of sad when a city state probably has a higher score than you (Sweden) do.

 

[Halcyan2]

BTW: My second try at TSG51 turned out poorly. Kind of ironic that my first try was so much better than my second (even though the latter benefited from map knowledge), but I was trying different strategies.

As mentioned, after succeeding with Diplomacy, I wanted to try again with Domination.

Took out Arabia and Spain. But hit the Persian speed bump.

Ironically enough, I was actually FRIENDS (as in DoF) with Mongolia. After fighting together against Spain we lived in perfect harmony (despite him settling cities all throughout my territory) as we teamed up against Persia. In fact, it was a World War against Persia with everyone left (Mongolia, me, and Sweden) all fighting Persia.

My original plan was to take out Persia, and then Sweden. Finally, I would sneak attack my Mongolian Friend to snipe his capital.

Alas, Persia's rapid tech advances (he expanded earlier than in my original game) became too much. I could handle his Industrial/Modern units when they were Artillery, Cavalry, WW1 Infantry, and even Machine Guns against my heavily promoted Gatling Guns. However, once he zoomed to the Atomic Age, he was impregnable. I could actually deal with the Rocket Artillery but those 60 strength super fast Mobile SAMs were too much. I also lost a few key units due to unexpected plane attacks.

I could have stalemated Persia in the war, but trying to conquer him seemed hopeless so I just gave up on the game.

One of my mistakes might have been finishing up Arabia and Spain. With the Deity production bonuses, I was too worried about calling peace and then them trying to retake their capital later. I even did the "diplomatic" thing by not eliminating their last city myself (I manipulated Spain into killing Arabia and helped Jerusalem take Spain's last city). But this all resulted in attacking Persia way too late. So I think the best strategy is either:

1. Change the attack order (moving up Persia).

OR

2. Continue my attack order (Arabia, Spain, ...) but just focus on securing their capital and not wiping them out.

That way I can hit Persia much, much faster.

Alternatively, maybe a few random DoW's at Persia (even if I'm not sending troops there) can rattle him. Delay his tech development. Or he will waste his troops by sending them to me and save me the trouble.

(I was able to get the GL again in this second game. Apparently Harun decided to go for Stonehenge instead so I had no competition for it).

 

[Halcyan2]

For fun, I reloaded an earlier save (of my Diplomacy Victory) to see how I would fare against Mongolia in a war.

He sent a massive army (30+ units) of Riflemen, Cannons, Keshiks, Lancers, and Gatling Guns but wasn't able to do any damage. I had one Warrior and one Bowman. (I quickly upgraded the Bowman to a Crossbowman, bought a Gatling Gun, and started producing more Gatling Guns in my capital).

For some reason he completely bypassed two of my weaker cities (with strengths in the 40's and 50's). I was taking pot shots with my city defenses (taking out Keshiks in one shot or Cannons in two). He massed around my capital (strength 60) but didn't actually attack.

All his units ran around doing nothing. I think they might have been confused by the Great Wall movement penalty. However, I recall a similar situation in the Into the Renaissance scenario where I was playing Russia and had to deal with a massive Mongolian army. Even though they could have put on a serious offensive, they got confused by a Citadel and got themselves killed without really attacking.

I eventually got some Infantry, but even with their strength it seemed like a pain trying to take any of the Mongolian cities.

But it does seem like it is possible to hold off the Mongolian hordes.

 

[Nui]

T234 science defeat by Persia. Did OK for my first Deity game. Did a standard 3 city tradition opening, stole about 5-7 workers from Arabia and the Mongols and continued to grow my cities from there.
Decided not to sign any RA this game and instead throw the money at city states. Turned out to be a bad plan as by the end of the game only 5 out of the 16 cs remained . Most likely could have won if Persia could have waited 15 to 20 more turns.

 

[Wargizmo]

T234 science defeat by Persia. Did OK for my first Deity game. Did a standard 3 city tradition opening, stole about 5-7 workers from Arabia and the Mongols and continued to grow my cities from there.
Decided not to sign any RA this game and instead throw the money at city states. Turned out to be a bad plan as by the end of the game only 5 out of the 16 cs remained . Most likely could have won if Persia could have waited 15 to 20 more turns.

That's brutal. I wonder what's the earliest the AI has ever launched on Deity. That's certainly the earliest I've ever heard of.