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TSG53 After Action Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Game Of The Month' started by Hammer Rabbi, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    @Araf, took a look at the screenie and here are a few thoughts for your next run-through:

    6 founded cities is on the high side for a classic culture game, and Douglas looks like it was founded late and made little contribution. Although each city will add to your total culture production, each additional city raises policy costs by 10% (with Representation; 15% otherwise). So, to keep pace you really have to be cranking the culture in each city (including getting a World Wonder in each for Reformation's 33% culture boost).

    I could only count 3 landmarks in your capital (presumably that's where you built Hermitage and, if you were lucky, Alhambra); the city banner obscures some tiles and you might have mined over a few when you were building Utopia, but 3 landmarks is not nearly enough. Also, I saw one landmark outside Dublin and another outside Truro--you want all of your landmarks in your Hermitage city (the culture equivalent of putting all of your academies in your National College city).

    I can't quite tell, but it also looks like you planted a bunch of GEs to form manufactories (Dublin looks like it has two and Nantes one). Nothing wrong with manufactories (hammers are always good), but it means you either generated a bunch of GEs naturally (instead of Great Artists) or, since you took Order, bought them with faith.

    One of the common themes you will see in other write-ups is getting to the Industrial Era as soon as possible and opening and completing Freedom (rather than Order) as quickly as possible, even if that means you are leaving other policy trees unfinished for the time being. Yes, the additional science, happiness, production, gold, etc. provided by Order are generically useful, but not as useful for a culture game as Freedom (most notably the opener and closer, the two specialist policies and the ability to buy Great Artists with faith). Longer and more frequent golden ages!

    Also, Commerce doesn't provide much for a culture victory -- more happiness (1/2 turned into culture by Mandate of Heaven) and gold is nice, but the naval and coastal city items were worthless on this map. Patronage is often more useful, particularly if there are a bunch of cultural CSs on the map (here there were only a few). Getting and keeping allied status with cultural CSs is a critical piece of the equation.

    Good luck with your next game!
     
  2. Neuro

    Neuro Warlord

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    Araf, here's my basic layout for a Culture victory:

    First, culture games are all about Gold Production. Your capital should be building Wonders non-stop from turn 25 on, so you'll need plenty of cash to buy the non-Wonder buildings in your capital, as well as buying up City-States. Usually, I only ever build 4 non-wonders in my Capital at the very beginning of the game: Scout, Monument, Shrine, Granary, then I go straight into Great Library and National College. After that, I try and grab Hanging Gardens, then I'll work on Oracle until I unlock Civil Service, and then I switch to Chichen Itza. My general plan is to get CI built before I hit my first Happiness Golden Age; I also defer Representation and Reformation (the two policies that give Golden Age) until after I've gone into my Happiness Golden Age. Often, I can time it so I build CI, and the next turn I go into GA and finish Oracle in a turn or two giving me one of those two policies, and I grab the next one a few turns later. I usually have taken Tradition opener, Liberty Opener, Citizenship, and Aristocracy before Piety opens, and then take Piety opener, Mandate of Heaven, and Organized Religion. This leaves me Reformation, Religious Tolerance, and Representation as the three I take once I hit happiness Golden Age, giving me a 45 turn GA.

    I almost never found more than 1 additional city in a Culture Game, usually at a location that is good for Petra. That's not to say I don't end up with more cities, but I like to take other civ's cities (especially their capital if it's close) and puppet them. Puppeted cities do not increase your Culture costs, but Annexed cities do, so I just use them for gold production. If the city doesn't have 2 Luxuries nearby, it's not worth puppeting.

    Your first techs should be Pottery and Writing nearly every time. After that it depends on what your nearby luxury techs are, but usually it'll be Calender and Mining. You'll be taking Philosophy with the Great Library, so make sure you have Calender finished before GL, or you can't take Philo.

    For Religion, I am a huge believer in Tithe and Cathedrals. Your Pantheon should be based on what's nearby, use your best judgement.

    I always take Tradition, Liberty, Piety, Patronage, and Freedom as my five trees. I often hold off taking Legalism until my cities have Amphitheaters, so I get free Opera Houses. I plan on putting 2 in Tradition, 3 in Liberty, 5 in Piety, and then if I'm not ready to take Legalism, I take the right 2 in Patronage. However, as soon as Freedom opens, I fill it up. Freedom's finisher is so strong, you want to get to it ASAP, but you have to get to the Industrial Age first.

    Tech-wise, you have several targets you'll be pushing for. You'll want to unlock Classical with Philosophy from the GL, Civil Service will open Medieval, and to unlock Renaissance, you'll want to take Acoustics. You'll be pushing for Archaeology as your Industrial tech, both for the Museums and the Louvre. Once you unlock Industrial, you'll want to make a straight push for Radio. Unless you've puppeted a ton of cities and your tech is outstanding, Radio is just about the last real tech you need. I've never been able to get to Plastics or Railroad before I filled 5 trees using this method, so usually after Radio I just focus on things like Industrialization, Fertilizer, and Chemistry to improve my output.

    Well, that got long quickly. I hope this Culture Primer helps out, and welcome to the GOTM!
     
  3. Araf

    Araf Chieftain

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    Wow! Thank you very much for detailed explanations guys!

    Ouch, shame i didn't know this in the beginning. It would have changed all the plans.

    About landmarks... i somehow get too many GEs, gotta check how to micromanage great persons. Also building all culture landmarks in capital along with Hermitage and Alhambra is a very good idea indeed.

    This is actually a brilliant approach. I'll try this with one of the old culture games in this subtopic.

    Also, i messed up with the policy preferences, yeah. I couldn't relate other branches with culture output, up until reading your replies. It all makes sense now. Also i haven't internalized the tech tree yet, so i often make bad research decisions but it will hopefully get better after playing a few more games.

    Thanks for the help, it was a very informative reading. :)
     
  4. TyfoonTurk

    TyfoonTurk Warlord

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    t295

    chose god of war and honour for early culture and faith with the pictish warrior - did not worked

    settled a city south on the ocean for SOH - did not worked
     
  5. Arnold_T

    Arnold_T Prince

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    Great Culture primer Neuro! :thumbsup:
    After your TSG41 victory where you beat both tommynt and Dave McW (not too many people can claim that one!), I was interested to read your write-up but couldn't find one. I resorted to watching the replay of your TSG41 game and figured out your two-city thn puppet approach, and your wonder order, but it didn't give insight into policies etc.

    In this game I was trying to follow your strategy, but I just can't seem to limit myself to two cities. :) Maybe next game!
     
  6. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    played this yesterday (and today last turns) in 1 HUGE session without saving once, musst have been like 10 hours straight :(

    won turn 232, could have shved like 5turns with better prebuilding and choosing another utopia city - my choise for it was horrible :(

    I see a much faster finish time only possible with more cities - guess like 8 d be best - money to buy culture buildings everywhere was obviously no problem this game ..

    Build 4 own and in turn like 80 annex 4 conquered caps/good spots more

    I played this with 4 only ..

    Gonna upload videos 1 after another if some1 fancy watching but at this difficulty its really straightforward
     
  7. glory7

    glory7 King

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    you're back, with another amazing record. Can you explain more about why you think more cities would be better? if you used differenet sp order, please let me know too.
     
  8. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    sp order:
    full tradition
    liberty till reduced sp costs
    full piety
    full freedom
    finish liberty
    military (any)

    this is my 3rd cult game i play with this order and it seem pretty optimal to me.
    The ga from liberty usually comes right after ci and from this point on sp flies in very 5-6 turns.

    Maybe Tradition isnt needed 100% but I just can never decide to neglect it, d have to fit in aque tech very early

    Every City which grows big enough to be able to use 5 artist slots should be beneficial, as I m pretty sure that the cult from 5 artists is more as the increased sp costs.
    Overal limit is happynes and gold /to buy the buildings but on this map there have been plenty of both
     
  9. glory7

    glory7 King

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    Hm so your sp order is basically the same as the previous sweden culture game.

    I just watched your video (and I think I was the first one to watch it). Great micromanagement, as usual. Got two questions:

    1. It seems that you try to rush buy many military units at the beginning: is it for barb camp missions?
    2. For early scouting, is there any tip? I know basic stuff like go unexplored places (say, if you met other civ scout from NW you won't go NW). But your units reach other civ cap to steal workers at good timing and you met useful CS really early. For example, you met 2 culture CS very early (one on the north end, one on the east end) which I failed to meet before like t180 (which was my bad play and bad luck combined).
     
  10. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    I am really curious about the strategy of taking Liberty (through Representation) early.

    Traditionally, I have taken:

    1. Full Tradition
    2. Full Piety
    3. * If I am late to Industrial, I open Liberty
    4. Full Freedom (usually timed with natural SP to open Freedom and the Oracle for Constitution)
    5. Finish up Liberty (though I may save the finisher for the end) and also do my 5th tree (usually Patronage or Commerce. I've been favoring Commerce lately).

    If I go straight Tradition -> Piety -> Freedom, then inserting 3 policies into Liberty will delay finishing Freedom. Though I suppose if you have explosive cultural growth and are slow to get into Industrial, you're going to have extra SP's before Freedom anyway.

    The Piety opener (faster faith buildings), Organized Religion (+1 faith from faith buildings), and Theocracy (+ gold from temple) are weak. However, Mandate of Heaven can give a little culture early on (balanced against Liberty opener) and a lot in the mid/late game. I feel that Reformation (+33% culture) is really huge and I usually have wonders in most (if not all) of my cities by the time I get it. And the 10% reduction from Religious Tolerance never hurts.

    In contrast, the Liberty stop includes the opener (small amount of culture), Citizenship (not so help at this point), and Representation.

    I realize that if you do LOTS of cities then Representation pays off a lot more than Religious Tolerance. (Similarly, if you do only a single city, then Representation doesn't reduce anything).

    So I'm trying to figure out why Representation beelining is better than Religious Tolerance beelining.

    1. Of course Representation only requires 3 policies, versus the 4 for Religious Tolerance so you will get its benefits for one extra SP.

    2. For a standard 4 city game, the additional cities would add 15% each for a 1.45 multiplier. With Representation, this goes down to a 1.3 modifier. In contrast, if you have Religious Tolerance (instead of Representation) you get a 10% reduction, so 0.9 times 1.45 is 1.305 which is roughly the same benefit as Representation.

    3. I figure that the Liberty opener and Mandate of Heaven balance each other out in the early game (with Mandate gaining the advantage mid-game).

    4. But I feel that getting Reformation (for +33%) and the Piety finisher (Holy Sites produce half the culture of pre-Freedom Landmarks) earlier is big.

    I do realize that if you get Representation earlier, then it will reduce the cost of more SP's. (Though you lose the turns that you'd generate extra culture from Piety and Freedom due to delays).

    Could someone please shed more light on their experiences?

    Also, if given the choice, is it worth popping the Oracle to quickly get Reformation & Religious Tolerance? Or is it better to quickly speed through Freedom (if it isn't built by the time you enter Industrial)?
     
  11. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    1. yes mainly, another reason is to get better peace offers after stealing workers. The more military strength you got the more will ai give u for peace (or offer peace at all).

    2. A 3rd reason is to finish scouting fully, when knowing there will be more units coming out, the initial units (warri + 2 scouts) can keep going into their desired directions and dont have to wait at some close barb camp or ai to do the mission or steal. As far I remember 2 CS were "hidden" behind india, but I did just have my warri keep scouting, I just missed few CS on islands, also a bit due to lazynes, should have send few absent unit to scout ocean more early.
     
  12. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    I think all this long "question" comes down to above sentence. Representation is just the strongest policy
     
  13. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    By the end of the game, how many cities did you have:

    Built Own versus Annexed versus Puppeted?

    Also, of the annexed cities, how many of them already had wonders that the AI built?


    Same question to glory7 (breakdown of # of cities, and if conquered cities have wonders).


    Also, I'm curious what tommynt and glory7 think about Full Tradition first and then Liberty to Representation versus Liberty to Representation and then Full Tradition.

    Thanks!
     
  14. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    I guess I d takeTradition starter most times even when switching to liberty after, the boarder expand is often very helpful, and then i dont want 1. ga so early and not without ci, but with so many other GAs to come it maybe doesnt hurt too much.

    I d definatly go for a fast oracle aswell if I try this rep 1. thing.
    Or just go full liberty to peity and tech aqueducts .. all the tradition tree isnt so strong if u can get aqeuducts in another way ...
    Lot stuff can work

    I had 4 own and like 10 puppets, just wanted to say that anexing 4 puppets at the right time might have been better ,,,,
     
  15. Wargizmo

    Wargizmo Warlord

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    Representation is awesome, and don't forget the extra +1 culture per city you get from liberty which really adds up if you're taking a lot of puppets. I think tradition is still better to take as a 1st tree though, the 4 free monuments are invaluable because they are likely to come before you have the money to rush buy monuments, or when you need to use money on other things.
     
  16. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    the free monuments are more a con to early tradition as a pro, liberty gives 1 cult for early cities aswell ..
    so with 4 cities early on that 4 cult difference, half a cult CS ..

    Tradition is just all about the finisher, the single policies are all stronger in liberty
     
  17. glory7

    glory7 King

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    I think I had tradition 4 cities opening, and got india cap around t150 and killed america and sweden later. Puppets came too late in my game, so they were not that meaningful. Conquered caps had some wonders, but unless you rush buy culture buildings and put artists in wonders alone do not give high culture, in my opinion.

    I learnt most of my strategies from tommynt, so I think his answer would be much better to answer your questions. I agree with tommynt that tradition finisher bonus is really really powerful. free aqueduct and 15% growth bonus is a killer. Compared with this, liberty finisher just gives one GP and no lasting effects.

    I think if you get legalism, it's better to finish tradition first. If you just get opener and go for liberty first and to piety, it also works. In that case your legalism timing would be the core of your strategy. Personally, I prefer full tradition as that's usual play for other games - I feel more comfortable.
     
  18. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    I'm not sure why Representation is useful here when you have to build all your cities pretty rapidly(before it makes a difference). Unless i'm missing something, does Representation only give benefits to new cities after that policy or it reduces policies cost from cities already built?

    What is the strategy behind that policy if it does not include bonus to cities already existing?
     
  19. Neuro

    Neuro Warlord

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    I never understood this whole "Building cities before or after Representation" question. It works the same way regardless.

    You have a base cost for each policy level. Cities add 15% to that base cost, 10% if you have Representation. If the next policy would cost 1000 with 1 city, it'll cost 1450 with 4 cities before Rep, and 1300 without Rep. The only extra cost in building cities fast is that those first few policies will cost a little extra until you get Rep, but given the extremely low cost of the first few policies compared to the thousands you spend per policy at end-game, it's not really an issue.
     
  20. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    When is the optimal time to do that turn-wise? t.150-200?
     

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