TSG53 After Action Thread

[Halcyan2]

I decided to reload an earlier save and replay it. Already submitted my game which I can use as a control variable so now I can compare finishing times.

Interesting so far. I've been able to chain together three Golden Ages in the early game. Finished Chichen Itza and then triggered a normal Golden Age through accumulated happiness. Then popped Oracle (early compared to my normal games) for Representation. And now zooming through Piety and will be able to start the Reformation before the Golden Age ends. Pretty sweet to have a 45 turn Golden Age early on! Unfortunately, I don't have that many hammers and culture to fully take advantage of it, but I figure later on there will be plenty of GA's to Golden Age anyway.

Also, even with just 4 cities, the Liberty opener is actually pretty decent at that point. I had 31 culture when I opened Liberty, so 4 extra culture is still a 12.9% increase which got me the next SP by 3 turns (20 vs 23).

 

[Suntechnique]

Depends on what you mean by Retroactive. It won't refund the higher culture you've already paid, if that's what you're asking.

Let's say your next policy would cost 100 culture with 1 city, and you have 3 cities, it would cost 130 (100 base + 15% for each city). Let's pretend you just finished the Oracle and you take Representation (the policy that cuts it from 15% to 10%), your next policy would cost 120 (100 base + 10% for each city). If, before you completed the Oracle, you settled a fourth city, your next policy would cost 145. If you finished Oracle after settling that fourth city, your next policy would drop down to 130. If you had settled that fourth city after completing the Oracle, your next policy would still be 130.

I hope that helps answer your question.

Thanks a lot!

 

[tommynt]

When is the optimal time to do that turn-wise? t.150-200?

well I d say annex as soon as you got representation and have access to at least 3 culture slots and your happyness and money can afford it.

But then with me peaking at 1300 culture, every annexed city d have to give 130 culture to make off the 10% higher policy costs, thats proly only possible with a wonder in it, if at all ..

So maybe something like 4-6 cities is really more optimal as 8, not sure, gotta check final save for how much a normal city with 5 artist slots and a wonder gave, if its more as 120 cult/city annexing more cities d have been good, if not maybe not (all you gain is the possibility to contol it whats usually means more science and a bit faster spawn rate of artists by more cities producing them)

Did I say allready how great world church is since it gives 2 faith instead 1?

 

[Moriarte]

well I d say annex as soon as you got representation and have access to at least 3 culture slots and your happyness and money can afford it.

That is going to happen well into t.200s in my games, even though i favor early rep. Thanks for the advice, i'll give it more thought next time i play.

But then with me peaking at 1300 culture, every annexed city d have to give 130 culture to make off the 10% higher policy costs, thats proly only possible with a wonder in it, if at all ..

I think it's more like 65, for a city without wonder, landmarks and such, so i dunno. I had a game yesterday, finished @ 248 and had 3 core + 5 puppets. I had to use up all cash for museums, CS's and broadcast towers, so the first available cash came around turn 200.. Too late for annexe i figured. I could have gone wider though. (that would solve financial troubles probably) Happiness and army allowed for it.

Spoiler :

 

[BWS]

Cities produce 60 cpt with broadcast tower, cathedral, pagoda, 5 artists, and Sistine Chapel. They usually produce about 75-90 if you build wonders.

You don't actually need to add 10% of your total culture to make additional cities worthwhile, because the city penalty is not compounded. Recently, sanabas figured out the correct formula, which is (current total culture) / (current number of cities + 9). If your new/annexed city can produce more than that, it will improve your culture rate.

Generally speaking, more cities will improve your culture rate if and only if three things are true:

• You adopted Representation.
• All of the cities have a complete set of fully-staffed culture buildings.
• You don't have too much extra culture from city-states and landmarks.

The last condition makes it tough to judge how many cities are best for a culture victory, because more cities will help you in the early and mid game, but they will hurt you in the late game. I have not been able to figure out yet whether the early gains are worth the late penalty.

 

[tommynt]

The last condition makes it tough to judge how many cities are best for a culture victory, because more cities will help you in the early and mid game, but they will hurt you in the late game. I have not been able to figure out yet whether the early gains are worth the late penalty.

thats actually pretty true, when freedom finisher hits and cap got 10 landmarks, cap will produce most of your culture and additional cities are more hurting as helping, but before that a city with a full set of culture building will usually help more.

Guess its like in most situations, civ5 is atm balanced to be played most succesful with 4-6 cities.

 

[Halcyan2]

It's also tricky because:

Additional cities indirectly cost you:
- Happiness (which can be converted to culture)
- Gold (if you spend gold to rush buildings, that gold could be spent elsewhere)
- Diplomatic penalties
- Costlier national wonders

However, additional cities have additional benefits:
- Produce science (which gets you to cultural techs faster)
- Produce gold (but do they produce more gold than you spend on them?)
- Access to luxuries (which is essentially happiness or gold)
- Increased security

 

[Schalke 04]

The last condition makes it tough to judge how many cities are best for a culture victory, because more cities will help you in the early and mid game, but they will hurt you in the late game. I have not been able to figure out yet whether the early gains are worth the late penalty.

difficult to tell. More cities can get you to Freedom-finisher faster, tech-wise and policy-wise, which could outweigh the disadvantages of them in the later stages of the game.

 

[Moriarte]

I have not been able to figure out yet whether the early gains are worth the late penalty.

I recall someone doing Korean occ on, like t.220 So either way works. Wider generally is easier in terms of cash though..

Correction: t.228 by Attaturk

 

[BWS]

Seems like the ideal approach is to follow the natural advantages of your UA, map situation, and personal style. Playing Maya, Celts, France, there are solid reasons to expand early even if it might slow you down in the late game. My experience has been that it doesn't slow you down that much. My personal records for CV have been t287 with tall France and t297 with wide Celts. I know that better players can do a lot faster with both.

 

[Halcyan2]

So I finished my replay which went for an early Representation.

The end time was slightly faster (5 turns), though it's hard to say since I had superior knowledge in the replay.

I was able to get a round of 5 RA's to get me to Plastics faster, so a slightly earlier Cristo Redentor and an extra great person (since I didn't have to waste Leaning Tower) could also account for it.

Also, my overflow was slightly better since I didn't count on Himeji for my queue. My final overflow build was:

Grand Temple (took 2 turns building it from scratch)
Taj Mahal (1 turn left)
Kremlin (1 turn left)
Brandenburg Gate (1 turn left)
Statue of Liberty (1 turn left)
Eiffel Tower (1 turn left)
Utopia (only 5 turns)