TSL not possible in Civilization

Now that I think about it, I'm very ashamed to admit I've always seen them as slight variations off the same template. Basically, what we see on TV. :blush:

Hunters and gatherers with varying degrees of agricultural proficiency that lived in tipis or longhouses, dress themselves with leather, paint their faces and bodies, didn't develop writing, and were very spiritual and ceremonial without the need for an organized religion.

I would appreciate if someone could share a link to a good documentary or book to learn a little bit more about the different civilizations in what is today north america.

Some books from a reading list on one of my Uni courses, mix of my favs and ones i still want to read:

Cordell, Linda S., Dynamics of Southwest Prehistory (Tuscaloosa, AL: University of Alabama Press, 2006)

Emerson, Thomas E. and R. Barry Lewis (eds), Cahokia and the Hinterlands: Middle Mississippian Cultures of the Midwest (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000)

Jennings, Jesse D., Ancient North Americans (San Francisco, CA: 1983, 1983)

Lekson, Stephen H., A History of the Ancient Southwest (Santa Fe, NM: SARP, 2009)

Pauketat, Timothy R., Ancient Cahokia and the Mississippians (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004)

Emerson, Thomas E., Cahokia and the Archaeology of Power (Tuscaloosa, AL: University of Alabama Press, 1997)

Sobel, Elizabeth A., D. Ann Trieu Gahr, and Kenneth M. Ames (eds), Household Archaeology on the Northwest Coast (Ann Arbor, MI: International Monographs in Prehistory, 2006)

Sullivan, Lynne P. and Robert C. Mainfort, Jr. (eds), Ancient Earthen Enclosures of the Eastern Woodlands (Gainesville, FL: University Press of Florida, 1998)


And not on North America, but an amazing documentary series nonetheless by the BBC on cultures in central and south america with Jago Cooper from the British Museum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvGf0JIat0s
There's also a series on lost kingdoms in Africa i've just discovered from linking this, and that I imagine is going to be very interesting too.

Enjoy the opening of your eyes, pre-columbian North America is a crazy, awesome and diverse place :goodjob: Both conciously and subconciously modern American culture has spread propaganda that justifies its claim to the land by suggesting nothing of significance came before, and every time someone puts a spade in the ground in ohio of new mexico, or most other places really, we find out its ever more wrong.
 
I would appreciate if someone could share a link to a good documentary or book to learn a little bit more about the different civilizations in what is today north america.

Not confined to North America, but I would strongly recommend
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
as an eye-opener. It's targeted at the general public rather than university students, but by all accounts the science is sound.
 
Enjoy the opening of your eyes, pre-columbian North America is a crazy, awesome and diverse place :goodjob: Both conciously and subconciously modern American culture has spread propaganda that justifies its claim to the land by suggesting nothing of significance came before, and every time someone puts a spade in the ground in ohio of new mexico, or most other places really, we find out its ever more wrong.

Excuse the random interjection, but I'm going to have to have a look at (at least) the books about the desert Southwest - archaeology and pre-European contact history of that region is a particular interest of mine, and it's always appreciated when someone points out another few resources about it!

Not confined to North America, but I would strongly recommend
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
as an eye-opener. It's targeted at the general public rather than university students, but by all accounts the science is sound.

Seconding this, and also suggesting you read 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created by the same author, Charles Mann. Between the two books you'll get a great idea of how utterly amazing the people (and everything else) of the Americas were both before and after European exploration and colonization, without getting fed either the 'Europeans civilized the world' or the 'Europeans were all nasty evil people' narratives (both of which are completely disconnected from reality.) I swear I learned more from those two books than from any 'official' history course I've ever taken.
 
Many errors here, let's start with first paragraph:
The Americas were "easy to colonize" because the Europeans, who did not bathe, brought scores of horrific diseases which they were immune to and that absolutely decimated the Amerindian population. Africa was not easy to colonize, and actual "colonialism"-- the settlement of the land by a non-native population-- only really occurred on a relatively large scale in the south. Most of Africa was "colonized" in a system known as New Imperialism, which did not occur because of "uncivilized nature" of Africans, but rather because the Europeans used violent technology and firepower overwhelm tactics to beat back the African populations. In fact, in the one region where the natives had anything near equivalent technology, IE Ethiopia, European imperialism was totally prevented in the earlier stages.

Second paragraph: Nope. There are many civ mods in the steam workshop that prove you wrong here, such as Colonialist Legacies. There are literally thousands of cultures in the world, and classifying "civilizations" based on Eurocentric conceptions of the world will obviously belittle the non-European civilizations.

Third paragraph: While it's true that Europeans have had more global geopolitical influence than many others, it's actually laughable to say they have more "history". History is linear and occurs across the world, and every culture in the world has just about the same amount of history. While it's true the popular conception is that history is always written, most history in the world has been oral for most of the existence of humans. But regardless, it is very Eurocentric, because it relies on the assertion that places conquered by Europe had no civilized history before the Europeans came. I mean look at a civ like the Aztecs; they were completely conquered by Europeans (due to disease) but they still merit a civilization based on their achievements before European interference.

Fourth paragraph: Not much of anything wrong here, I agree Southeast Asia could use some love. We need Tagalog civs!

Fifth paragraph: Strongly disagree. More from a marketing standpoint, because Americans wanna play America, Germans wanna play Germany, Brits wanna play Britain, etc. However if you dial back the OVERWHELMINGLY DISPROPORTIONATE number of Euro civs then it's very easy.

EDIT: Also obviously this entire thread is at its core riddled with Eurocentric inaccuracies but it seems as though other users have already broken down some of the OP stuff. So no need for me to.

Way to blatantly distort my words and completely miss my point. Either you inadvertently misread my post, or you're being deliberately intelectually dishonest. :rolleyes:

Either way, your post is way off, but I'll reply for the sake of my good name.

the Europeans, who did not bathe, brought scores of horrific diseases
You kind of lost all your credibility here.

which did not occur because of "uncivilized nature" of Africans,
Who claimed the Africans were uncivilized?

but rather because the Europeans used violent technology and firepower overwhelm tactics to beat back the African populations. In fact, in the one region where the natives had anything near equivalent technology, IE Ethiopia, European imperialism was totally prevented in the earlier stages.
That's exactly what I said.

it's actually laughable to say they [Europeans] have more "history".
Again, who said that? It's baffling how you're just inventing things out of nowhere.

Second paragraph: Nope. There are many civ mods in the steam workshop that prove you wrong here, such as Colonialist Legacies. There are literally thousands of cultures in the world, and classifying "civilizations" based on Eurocentric conceptions of the world will obviously belittle the non-European civilizations.
Yeah, no.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to define the concept of "civilization" at your will. The concept was created in 19th-century Europe, so yes, it is Western-centric by nature. And, guess what?, Civilization is a game based on the Western historiographic tradition.

By definition, the term Civilization refers to urban societies, that is, organized around developed cities, as opposed to loose, non-centralized tribal societies.

Now we all know Firaxis doesn't always stick to this definition with their "civs", and personally I'm glad they don't. But it's inevitable that they prefer to include societies which fit the concept which their game is named after.

So no, civ mods don't prove me wrong in any way. I never said there weren't thousands of interesting cultures in Africa and the Americas. But, simply put, most of them don't fit the definition of civilization (which, again, doesn't mean they're not civilized). Therefore, as I said, those regions will always be more empty of civs (and by civs I meant and I mean official in-game civilizations) than Europe and Asia.

Fifth paragraph: Strongly disagree.
I welcome this instead of the "You're wrong" attitude of the previous words.

More from a marketing standpoint, because Americans wanna play America, Germans wanna play Germany, Brits wanna play Britain, etc. However if you dial back the OVERWHELMINGLY DISPROPORTIONATE number of Euro civs then it's very easy.
If you dial back the number of Euro civs, then you cannot achieve a balance of historical significance.

Anyway -- in the future, please read my words more carefully and moderate your anti-Western zeal.
 
The part everyone missed.

Remember England
Spain
Italy
Those coastal civs will be able to get naval tech and sail to the new world well before the American civs can fill out North and South America.

California? More like NeoToyko.
Expect India to colonize Africa.

New game. New Rules
 
Alot has already been said but I'll add that making statements like Europeans deserves more representation and continents should be empty to reflect factual history is precisely the type of statement that goes beyond Eurocentrism. Just because you weren't taught about these civs and kingdoms doesn't mean they didnt exist or that there was a vast void of emptiness. No, these were competent, organized societies that persisted for a long time. Particularly, in the North American example, there were societies like the Iroquois that were legitmate trading and political partners with European powers for a very long time. The tragedy in alot of these Native tribes history is their outsized trust in Europeans being true to their word on treaties and promises and the tragic case of them making the wrong bets when choosing allies in regional wars. It's precisely your idea of their unimporance, that was their downfall because Kings and Queens deemed them unimportant when they entered into legal treaties with them. Its really circular logic. They were wiped from history merely because they were deemed less than human from the start.

Another point, imagine we treated Egypt like we treat the North American civilizations. Imagine Egypt had no access to limestone and they built pyramids from mud and lesser stone instead. Imagine we had no Rosetta stone to translate their hieroglyphs. Imagine, authors never bothered to write stories about them that intrigued European leaders in places like England and France. We'd look at them as a backwards, semi organized civ that was ancient and unimportant.

It's only because they were able to mold and conquer a great material in limestone, and because we could translate their language that we give them the respect they deserve. They also benefit from the Roman fetishes that western civilization carries because all world leaders look at Egypt as an imperialism trophy. But Egypt parallels civs in North America.

If Egypt never built incredible monuments, or scratch that, built them of mud instead, would they be unimportant in your eyes? No, because they had incredible stories, incredible engineering feats, incredible leaders. The pyramids and monuments are just icing on top. Now think about the fact that North Americans may have those same dynamics but they were to far away from the old world to fetishize and some of their monuments were actively torn down and seen as paganism, or eroded over time. Some even stand in jungles to this day. So it's much easier to marginalize them. But they are every bit as human and very bit as dynamic.

Lastly, civ isnt a history lesson it's merely a game and I get that. But from a gaming perspective, look at their vaulue, look at how different they could play and how they could add value to a game with a different game dynamic all together. What if we didnt follow the same formula for every single game and broke that cycle with a unique game style based on these civs historical strengths.

Lastly (again) this idea that ethnic minorities and smaller civs are not marketable because they've never been marketed before is the same reason Hollywood won't hire black leads, it's the same reason they make Europeans and white americans the hero in stories that probably should depict someone of Asian heritage, it's why they won't do stories in which Persia is the protagonist side, why the Pharoahs are white and speak with British accents. It's this circular idea that society isn't ready for other cultures outside of the Greco-Roman dynamic. I'm sorry to get a bit off topic but this line about marketability screams Hollywood exec saying Christian Bale should play an Egyptian nobleman. /end rant
 
Well, Egypt also got mentioned in that book who was important to a minor middle eastern nation, and an offshoot of their religion got spread all over Europe. Also Egyptians had their stories written for Europeans to read because they developed writing long before anyone in Europe thought about the concept.

But I guess I'm a bit of Middle-east-centric.
 
Alot has already been said but I'll add that making statements like Europeans deserves more representation and continents should be empty to reflect factual history is precisely the type of statement that goes beyond Eurocentrism. Just because you weren't taught about these civs and kingdoms doesn't mean they didnt exist or that there was a vast void of emptiness.

I just hope you're not directing that rant at me, because I didn't say anything even close to that.
 
And for my two cents:

Based on continental landmass percentage and 50 civs in game eventually, this would be 'pure' TSL balance:

Asia and Middle East= 33% = 16-17 civs
Africa = 22% = 11 civs
North America = 18% = 9 civs
South America = 13% = 6/7 civs
Europe = 8% = 4 civs
Australia and Oceania = 6% = 3 civs

That's just not gunna happen though, at launch Europe is gunna get more than 4 civs. It physically could happen, since there are definitely enough worthy candidates in other parts of the world for those ratios, but Europe is gunna get more rep than that, and too right. But TSL doesn't need to be fully balanced, there's never gunna be enough space for all the European civs in one game. So there could be one TSL mode that shoves every civ on a map and says i don't care about balance. And then there could be another one that has a civ cap on the map and approximates civs based on continents to landmass available.

So for example, a 20 civ TSL map. We reapproximate the number of civs loosely based on landmass to get the following:

7 Asian civs
4 African civs
4 North American civs
2 South American civs
2 European civs
1 Oceanian civ

That is so easily achievable. It won't happen at launch obviously, not least cos there's only 18 civs. But this means we could have 32 European civs from 50 and still have TSL balance theoretically.

Or we could go somewhere in between, still have a good number of European civs AND and good number of rest of the world civs. It would be nice to have a situation like this and be able to have each continent have some ability to cycle through civs.

The main contention then is the actual candidates for the Americas, Africa and Oceania, and that's just a matter of actually researching what has happened in these places.

And finally, i hope this post is understandable and doesn't fall in the rambling nonsense category like most of my posts. :goodjob:
 
TSL should not be balanced as the real earth was not. e.g. italy or france is much more suitable for life, economy, trade, etc, than say amazon jungle or sakhara desert or taiga. mediterranean created great opportunity for trade, wile there was nothing like that in asia. humanity spread from north africa to middle east then to europe then to america, so concentration of ppl was not the same. climate changed differently in different regions with time...
 
TSL should not be balanced as the real earth was not. e.g. italy or france is much more suitable for life, economy, trade, etc, than say amazon jungle or sakhara desert or taiga. mediterranean created great opportunity for trade, wile there was nothing like that in asia. humanity spread from north africa to middle east then to europe then to america, so concentration of ppl was not the same. climate changed differently in different regions with time...

And no-ones saying lets chuck endless civs in rainforests and deserts. But given the small map scale comparative to the earth we'll be dealing with, you can have enough civs in the habitable and productive parts of each continent to have a balanced map.
 
Thanks everyone for the links, I'll make sure to check at least some of them so I can contribute with a more informed opinion.
 
There doesn't have to be a major problem here, obviously there's not going to be a perfect proportion of landmass with number of civs. There's plenty of civs to choose from from around the world (which can extend from full civilizations i.e. Incas to strong cultures i.e. Polynesia which I really appreciate Firaxis for including).

In any case we can come to a compromise, we have to accept that Europe's role in colonialism leads around 5 civs being overemphasized and included due to merit of achievement, not cultural uniqueness. This was an important part of world history and allows parts of the world to be represented through these civs (e.g. Australia) if anything. Apart from that, if we do some geographical manipulation and add Europe's landmass to that of Russia's and Greenland's we get aprox. 20% of the Earth's land area (excluding Antarctica), and in a 45-50 Civ game that would leave us with up to 10 European civs:
•Greece
•Romans
•Spain
•France
•Portugal
•Dutch
•England
•Norse
•Celts
•Germany
•Russia

11 – not bad, and that should be after the expansions + DLCs, leaving around 35+ civs to go around. When it gets to the point of including Venice, Poland, Sweden etc. that's where we have a problem. We could have easily had a 1 city challenge with ELAM, ZIMBABWE or SUMER which had unique cultures - but Firaxis went with Venice!
 
I think people need to forget about TSL. There are just not enough Civs in certain parts of the world to provide an adequate and interesting selection to balance out all the traditional European civs.

I don't understand the core thought behind this thread. One of the best games I ever had in civ5 was with civ5 vanilla roster on very geographically unbalanced TSL map.
More diverse civs make great mode (TSL Earth) even greater, not poor mode less poor as you suggest
:p

It certainly isn't possible to balance it at launch given that Civilization is a Western product for a largely Western audience. It is NOT 'euro-centric' because TSL is an add-on requirement, not the original basis for the game.

Original basis for the game is "many civilizations of various part of the world fight in a semi-simulation of world history" and in this regard Civ games very well can be eurocentric, although it becomes better adressed the more series develop.

Less eurocentrism means both better historical accuracy (as far as it may go in civ) and more interesting, exotic stuff instead of everything being tired cliches from the same countries as always. It's a win-win situation.

The issue is how many steppe hordes or NA-natives do you want? I realise they are all distinct etc but from a visual and world achievement perspective they are all pretty much the same.

Not true. Several steppe hordes pretty much had "first tier" historical significance - after obvious Mongols, Timurids had huge impact and powerful empire, while Golden Horde/Tatars, Khazars, Avars and Xiongnu (to name from memory) are all within "second tier" of historical significance ("pretty damn noticeable")

That said, if you were to ignore local sales for the majority of the market and prune down Europe you can discuss how that Civ layout could look.

If you want TSL you need to allocate Civs by landmass. If Europe makes up <10% of the landmass and you have say 20 Civs at launch (just for arguments sake) they would have to be 2-3 Civs max.
Very rough numbers:
Europe 7% = 3 (based on 1.5 but rounded up, most of the others rounded down)
Asia 33% = 6
Africa 22% = 4
Oceania 6% = 1
North America 18% = 3
South America 13% = 3

(Almost) nobody cares about "land mass" or such strict absurd calculations, as it is obvious some huge areas of the world simply didn't have any civilizations you can put in those places. Nobody does such calculations. Amazon jungle, Patagonia, Canada, Alaska, Sahara, Kalahari, Arab deserts, Greenland, Siberia and Australia all occupy enormous part of Earth's landmass and yet nobody within "the movement" proposes more civs from those areas than Inuits/Canada or Aborigines/Australia, and most of people dislike those civs too.

The aim of people who hope for "less eurocentrism" is not dividing civs because of some absurd landmass calculations, but simply more diversification of civs roster, with tons of distinctive/impressive/worthy non-Western civilisations available across the entire world.
 
You should divide Europe into different regions and allocate civs per region :
- Northern Europe : {Iceland, Scandinavia} + {Ireland, England, Scotland}
- Central Europe : France, Germany, (England) ...
- Mediterranean Region/Southern Europe : Spain/Portugal, (France), Rome/Italy, Greece/Byzantium/(Turkey)
- Eastern Europe : Poland, Hungary, Russia, ...

Regarding Turkey/Osmans I would suggest letting the turks start in Turkmenistan (east of Caspian Sea) so they can replay their historic migration/conquest ... (like in Civ4 TSL GEM) ... this would also give Constantinople some thousand additional years to live ...
 
The person's point, I think, was that essentially the biggest factor for deciding which civilisations to include is based on what they have actually achieved and how advanced they are. North American civs and African civs in that regard are not particularly notable. There weren't as many peoples and cultures which actually developed into proper civilisations with writing, advanced architecture and urban development. That's generally the key criteria.

Firaxis include "civilisations" which don't fit that criteria and aren't traditional civilisations, because they also want to get a representation of the world, and they want to have a level of geographical variety, cultural variety, ethnic variety and gameplay variety too.

Ultimately though peoples and cultures which did develop into advanced civilisations with written language and organised urban societies, were historically notable, do get a much bigger importance in Civilisation.

Yes thank you that is my point. As always certain people have to take offence on behalf of others. :crazyeye:

I specifically stated in my opening post that obviously each tribe is distinct but will never have the marketing clout as a civ because they do not have that "known history".

Having more than one NA-native civ is redundant from the perspective of a game which relies on generalizing things. They do not have the known history of a France vs Germany or China vs Japan that make it worthwhile including such civs even though they are very close to each other.

Sioux vs Comanche are not as different because they never developed enough to become more distinct from each other. It would be like having the English vs Welsh in the game. They are just too close from the generalized perspective of the game even if in real life they are very distinct with their own proud heritage/history.
 
You may want to check this page for a list of ethnic groups in the world : http://worldmap.harvard.edu/maps/1894 or here http://jcfrei.com/ethnicities-of-the-world/#
or have a look at this (huge) map
Spoiler :
ethnicGroupsV2.png

or this one
Spoiler :
TGW-GameWorld-EthnicityView1.jpg


Most of the western states like France or Germany on those maps appear to be homogenous through to hundreds of years of political unification and high level language (standard language), but if you look at dialect maps, you can see the historic fractions of those nations ...
Spoiler :
Central_Europe_End_5th_Century_German.jpg
 
Not true. Several steppe hordes pretty much had "first tier" historical significance - after obvious Mongols, Timurids had huge impact and powerful empire, while Golden Horde/Tatars, Khazars, Avars and Xiongnu (to name from memory) are all within "second tier" of historical significance ("pretty damn noticeable")


Yeah... but they all like ride horses man. :p

I certainly prefer them to the NA-horse-botherers because they have more notable histories. If you can represent them without all being horse-conqueror types then great but otherwise they are not distinctive enough due to having had a short period of success/relevance. Hence... Mongols representing them all.
 
TSL should not be balanced as the real earth was not. e.g. italy or france is much more suitable for life, economy, trade, etc, than say amazon jungle or sakhara desert or taiga. mediterranean created great opportunity for trade, wile there was nothing like that in asia. humanity spread from north africa to middle east then to europe then to america, so concentration of ppl was not the same. climate changed differently in different regions with time...

Exactly. Why should the civilizations be distributed based on land area? I tried distributing it by arable land using data from faostat.fao.org, and the numbers are more favorable for Europe:

Africa 17.5%
North America 15.5%
South America 9.5%
Asia 35.3%
Europe 18.6%
Oceania 3.2%
(total 99.6%)

If there are 25 civs total, the numbers would break down like this:
Africa 4.5 civs
North America 4 civs
South America 2.5 civs
Asia 9 civs
Europe 4.5 civs
Oceania 1 civ

Here is a breakdown for 50 civs total:
Africa 9 civs
North America 8 civs
South America 5 civs
Asia 18 civs
Europe 9 civs
Oceania 1 civ

North America is topheavy in every analysis, so I would support the idea of adding multiple "Native American" civs to balance the game.
 
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