[Tuning] Policies: Imperalism

You'll rethink this once you play the patch. Puppets suck and buying units late is less universal. (They start with half XP and gold is less plentiful.)
In that case why not let Imperialism remove that half XP from purchases? Did Civilizing Mission get nerfed or something 'cause that's how I bought and upgraded most of my units, not whatever per turn gold I got. I fully agree with Owl that the scaler should be changed.
 
In that case why not let Imperialism remove that half XP from purchases? Did Civilizing Mission get nerfed or something 'cause that's how I bought and upgraded most of my units, not whatever per turn gold I got. I fully agree with Owl that the scaler should be changed.
That could work too. I think my suggestion at the end of my post is what I'll stand by, but let me hear your specific proposals.
 
That could work too. I think my suggestion at the end of my post is what I'll stand by, but let me hear your specific proposals.
Well, since G is apparently gonna take a look at Puppet penalties, I think Owl's suggestion for scaling puppet production could work. Even if they're not worth keeping as a puppet you can at least rely on them to build up a solid infrastructure before annexing. Quickly readied cities are very nice for steady lategame conquering.
Otherwise I haven't been playing lately and I've noticed that my thoughts on the game have been spotty, so I'd like to see what G thinks could be move around for an idea of what we'll work with.
I really like Stalker's proposal for tripling base yield monopolies though.

Edit:
Venice, though...
 
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Generally, I want Imperialism to retain its theme. No big reworks, and I really don't want to touch the other industrial trees, as they're solid.

Things I've been looking at:
1.) Buffing Admirals - GGs get a citadel buff in Autocracy, so it'd be nice for Admirals to have a similar buff in Imperialism. Possibilities are
a.) More luxuries from the voyage of discovery (monopoly stuff is not feasible, and they'd also be useless for many tile-based monopolies)
b.) Increase the Admiral's combat buff aura/strength
c.) Give admirals a combat promotion like Pilum that lets front-line admirals deal damage​
2.) Civilizing Mission - since Industry is the factory tree, I'm going to swap out that building for something else. I'm thinking a high-end military building, like the Military Base. Something to make city capture for imperialists feel immediately rewarding.
3.) Moving the ocean tile bonus earlier in the tree, possibly making it the opener (and shuffling things around)
4.) Adding a puppet unhappiness reduction modifier
5.) Also, adding a war weariness modifier somewhere. Perhaps a 'half war weariness from puppets captured and units killed in foreign lands.'
 
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1.) Buffing Admirals - GGs get a citadel buff in Autocracy, so it'd be nice for Admirals to have a similar buff in Imperialism. Possibilities are
a.) More luxuries from the voyage of discovery (monopoly stuff is not feasible, and they'd also be useless for many tile-based monopolies)
b.) Increase the Admiral's combat buff aura/strength
c.) Give admirals a combat promotion like Pilum that lets front-line admirals deal damage
Healing is the most underperforming ability for the Admiral. Buff healing: more range, let healed units move again, gain yields for the action, something that is noticeable.

2.) Civilizing Mission - since Industry is the factory tree, I'm going to swap out that building for something else. I'm thinking a high-end military building, like the Military Base. Something to make city capture for imperialists feel immediately rewarding.
Stalker0 is right, Imperialism is also about controlling waters. Use Lighthouses, Harbors and Seaports. You need those buildings for military naval purchases.

3.) Moving the ocean tile bonus earlier in the tree, possibly making it the opener (and shuffling things around)
Good. Make it so an Imperialist sets maritime bases and then launches attacks on nearby cities. Buff pioneers, by the way.

4.) Adding a puppet unhappiness reduction modifier
Puppets are sad because they develop very slowly, that's the source for their unhappiness.

5.) Also, adding a war weariness modifier somewhere. Perhaps a 'half war weariness from puppets captured and units killed in foreign lands.'
Why not more simple? -30% war weariness. Period.
 
Generally, I want Imperialism to retain its theme. No big reworks, and I really don't want to touch the other industrial trees, as they're solid.

Things I've been looking at:
1.) Buffing Admirals - GGs get a citadel buff in Autocracy, so it'd be nice for Admirals to have a similar buff in Imperialism. Possibilities are
a.) More luxuries from the voyage of discovery (monopoly stuff is not feasible, and they'd also be useless for many tile-based monopolies)
b.) Increase the Admiral's combat buff aura/strength
c.) Give admirals a combat promotion like Pilum that lets front-line admirals deal damage​
2.) Civilizing Mission - since Industry is the factory tree, I'm going to swap out that building for something else. I'm thinking a high-end military building, like the Military Base. Something to make city capture for imperialists feel immediately rewarding.
3.) Moving the ocean tile bonus earlier in the tree, possibly making it the opener (and shuffling things around)
4.) Adding a puppet unhappiness reduction modifier
5.) Also, adding a war weariness modifier somewhere. Perhaps a 'half war weariness from puppets captured and units killed in foreign lands.'
1- I think that we need to determine is Imperialism is only worthwhile for navy and naval control, or if we should make it useful for land military as well. Tu clearly wants to buff it's naval strengths, I want to shore up it's land weaknesses.

2- To buff admirals I think this is best:
2a- Heal goes to 2 range, and gives X Culture and Golden Age points, where X is some percent of the amount healed, scaling to era. An amazing miracle victory worthy of songs and books. Personally I think it would be best if it gave a random great work for each 300 HP healed, but I doubt that's in the code.
2b- Voyage of Discovery gives +2 Happiness, which is also doubled with the policy that doubles monopolies.

Also if you were going to change Civilizing Mission I would suggest adding a free unit in the nearest city on city capture. (In addition to whatever you replace factory with.)
 
1- I think that we need to determine is Imperialism is only worthwhile for navy and naval control, or if we should make it useful for land military as well. Tu clearly wants to buff it's naval strengths, I want to shore up it's land weaknesses.

I like the idea of spreading stricktly military bonuses, the same tourism was spread in middle age policies. Rationalism is good for aircraft, Imperialism for naval, and Industrialism just pays for a huge army.
 
I like the idea of spreading stricktly military bonuses, the same tourism was spread in middle age policies. Rationalism is good for aircraft, Imperialism for naval, and Industrialism just pays for a huge army.
There is still a point to the middle age branches. Fealty is loosely religious. Statecraft is heavily CS focused, which can work for multiple victory types but is best for diplomatic. Artistry is great person focused, which still lends itself a bit more for culture victories.

In this case Rationalism would be science focused. Industrialism would be gold and production focused. What would Imperialism be?

I've heard you mention coastal, but coastal what? Should it give more production than industry? Should it give more science than rationalism? Should it give a combination? Or something totally different?

Secondly is it really a good idea to make one of the trees to dependent on terrain? Part of the reason we changed middle trees was that there wasn't really a choice. If you make Imperialism coastal focused it's going to be the same thing.
 
I've heard you mention coastal, but coastal what? Should it give more production than industry? Should it give more science than rationalism? Should it give a combination? Or something totally different?
Not putting all eggs in the same basket.

About the naval theme, it's +1 movement and sight for naval and embarked, as now, plus a bonus (yet to decide) to naval buildings, plus the bonus that already exists for water tiles. All combined makes island cities very viable, coastal cities stronger, and controlling far away lands easier. It's weaker in Pangea, maybe stronger in Archipielago. But you can place coastal cities in Pangea too, and control all the shores, isn't it?

Plus, it fits with Imperialism.
 
Things I've been looking at:
1.) Buffing Admirals - GGs get a citadel buff in Autocracy, so it'd be nice for Admirals to have a similar buff in Imperialism. Possibilities are
a.) More luxuries from the voyage of discovery (monopoly stuff is not feasible, and they'd also be useless for many tile-based monopolies)
b.) Increase the Admiral's combat buff aura/strength
c.) Give admirals a combat promotion like Pilum that lets front-line admirals deal damage

What if a Great Admiral's combat buff/aura allowed ships within the radius to heal even if they had moved that turn? Like March but for sea units and only if the units are within the GA's radius of effect? This could be in addition to the combat buff that already exists, pending your view on how to balance it.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=243508419
The link above is a mod I used before I came to VP. It allowed expending a GA to create an improved fish resource. Perhaps this could be the basis for altering Voyage of Discovery to allow the GA to place X copies of a resource on the map?
 
What if a Great Admiral's combat buff/aura allowed ships within the radius to heal even if they had moved that turn? Like March but for sea units and only if the units are within the GA's radius of effect? This could be in addition to the combat buff that already exists, pending your view on how to balance it.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=243508419
The link above is a mod I used before I came to VP. It allowed expending a GA to create an improved fish resource. Perhaps this could be the basis for altering Voyage of Discovery to allow the GA to place X copies of a resource on the map?

It'd be a lot of new code, unfortunately.

G
 
It'd be a lot of new code, unfortunately.

G
I got a bit excited thinking about a GA that could support a fleet with some healing and I forgot about the no new code rule, my bad on that one. I'll try to think of something else that is closer to existing mechanics.
 
It'd be a lot of new code, unfortunately.

G

For the aura, can't this be done by creating a healing promotion linked to a promotion on the Great Admiral via AddedFromNearbyPromotion? It's already in the DLL.
 
Some ideas I've been kicking around, after reading this thread:

Policy changes:
Spoiler :

Opener
  • +1 Move for embarked units and GAs.
  • +1 Move and Sight for Naval units.
Martial Law Replace Martial Law with "Private Armies" policy
  • -15% reduction in unit :c5gold: maintenance. (swap no gold maintenance on garrisons to the authority tree.)
  • All bonuses from Global Monopolies are doubled (moved from Colonialism)
Colonialism
  • Every puppeted city in your empire gives 10% of its :c5food:/:c5production: yields per turn in unoccupied cities. (puppeted cities stay crappy, but buff the original cities of the empire, just like real colonialism :satan:)
  • -33% :c5unhappy: unhappiness from Puppet cities
Regimental Tradition
  • -25%:c5gold:cost of unit upgrades. (moved from colonialism)
  • +33% generation for GGs and GAs
  • Number of luxuries awarded by Voyages of Discovery doubled and Fleet Repair gives 15XP to healed units.
Exploitation
  • Units can be upgraded in territory owned by friendly City-States and Vassals.
  • +1:c5food:/:c5production: from farms and plantations
  • +1 :c5science:/:c5production: from Coast, Ocean and Lake (moved from Closer)
Civilizing mission
Closer
  • Air units get +20% on attack promotion (unique promotion, mirroring ironsides for boats).
  • Naval units receive Ironsides promotions (+20% defense, moved from martial law)
  • killing units reverses war weariness slightly.
  • Can buy GAs with :c5faith:Faith
  • Can build Pentagon
Other
  • GA: I think increasing the damage modifier to 20% would be alright. For Voyage of discovery, another small bonus could be it could reveal a large portion of the map you haven't discovered yet, like that 1 ancient ruin. That would make sense, given the name.

Added/dropped effects:
Spoiler :
Added:
  • 10% of puppet city's :c5food:/:c5production: yields per turn given to all unocuppied cities (I would estimate 5-8 :c5food:/:c5production: per city)
  • Double luxury and XP from GA bulbs
  • unhappiness modifier for puppet cities
Dropped:
  • +25%:c5production: for puppet cities
  • +25% effectiveness for tribute demands
Changed:
  • Free factory (replaced with constabulary) and Gold on conquest
  • no maintenance on garrison (replaced with -15% maintenance)
  • Range Promotion for air units (replaced with +20% attack promotion)
 
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just like real colonialism
Except real colonies didn't develop slower than the main country, nor stay crappy. That was part of the problem for England at least.

Also I don't feel like those changes would solve any of the issues. The tree would still be garbage.
 
Except real colonies didn't develop slower than the main country, nor stay crappy. That was part of the problem for England at least.
America and Canada aren't particularly good examples of colonialism. Think British India, Dutch Indonesia, French Indochina, the Belgian Congo. America, Canada, Australia and to a lesser extent South Africa are less traditional colonialism and more ethnic replacement. It was meant as a sort of callback to mercantilism which saw foreign holdings impoverished and stripped of wealth for the benefit of the mother country.

Numbers could stand to be tweaked. The Martial law I recommended is too close to the authority policy (1 happiness/2 culture on garrison)
I changed some of the stuff, and condensed it a bit
 
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the key is the AI.

G
Do you need to teach the AI to use it? Since Great Admirals already give an aura buff, which they should already know how to use.

I'm not really advocating for or against the idea by the way, just curious about the code aspect.
 
I'd buff Great Admirals by having the Imperialism tree buff their Combat bonus and to have them heal nearby units significantly (perhaps using the promotion from the Khan).

I'd also have the 2nd or 3rd policy in Imperialism grant all past, present and future naval units the equivalent of the March promotion.

As for the general direction/purpose of the Imperialism tree -> it would be a tree for further enhancing warmongering capabilities and further rewarding conquering cities, with a bit more emphasis on the maritime/coastal bonuses.
 
I'd buff Great Admirals by having the Imperialism tree buff their Combat bonus and to have them heal nearby units significantly (perhaps using the promotion from the Khan).

I'd also have the 2nd or 3rd policy in Imperialism grant all past, present and future naval units the equivalent of the March promotion.

As for the general direction/purpose of the Imperialism tree -> it would be a tree for further enhancing warmongering capabilities and further rewarding conquering cities, with a bit more emphasis on the maritime/coastal bonuses.
If you want it to enhance warmongering with a 'bit' more emphasis on maritime bonuses why are you suggesting adding another bonus to ships?

Also that would be an insanely OP bonus. (The march one)

I also feel like buffing combat bonus is fine (if boring) but I don't like the healing thing.

I think the restrictions in healing are a defining part of naval warfare, and doing away with it isn't the way to buff them.
 
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