Turn 1-50

[2metraninja]

For all of you number-crunchers out there, can someone tells me if I am doing this correct:

I am fan of whipping, but I do it mostly with gut feeling than any mathematical support. I want to make a spreadsheet which can tells me how much hammers I can most invest to be able to whip for say 2 pop points. This spreadsheet must calculate the productions bonuses. How this is calculated?

Say I am whipping Infantry (cost 140 hammers). The multipliers which will enforce each of my whipped pop hammers return (30 base hammers) are as follow:
Forge (25% or *1.25)
Factory (25% or *1.25)
Police State (25% or *1.25)

Till here it is clear for me - those 30 hammers multiplied by all the multipliers (*1.75) becomes 52 hammers (rounded up or down or just the integer part is taken and the rest is thrown away?). Which means that I must have at most 38 hammers invested to be able to whip an infantry for 2 pop points.

Now comes the thing which I dont understand exactly how it works - Kremlin (-33% hurry production cost) Where to put this? is it *1.33 the base hammers before adding any of the others multipliers? Just like the Bureaucracy +50% added hammers? But those 33% must be substracted from somewhere. Is it 140 / 1.33 = 105 (106?) hammers which an Infantry costs when I am rushing it with Kremlin?

 

[bcool]

I tested the kremlin gives another *1.5 factor before modifiers! since when you divide 1/1.5 you get 0.667 Or a -33% hurry production cost.

so forge, factory, police state and the krelim would give a factor of 1.75 but start with 30*1.5 or 45 hammers.
so 1 pop would give 45 *1.75
78 hammers per pop
(I believe all extra hammers are rounded down)
with a factory each pop would give
101 hammers
state property, forge, police state and factory and heroic epic with krelim gives 150 hammers per pop Looks like it truncates after each multiplier so actually is 149
so 45 *0.1 gives 4 not 4.5
45 *0.25 gives 11 not 11.25
45 *0.5 gives 22 not 22.5

 

[YossarianLives]

According to this thread, it adds 50% to whip hammers (with no other multipliers, 45 hammers instead of 30). I'm not sure how that works or if it is accurate, though...

It increases the amount of hammers you get from a 1 pop whip from 30 hammers to 45 hammers - a 50% increase. That is the same effect as "reducing the cost by 33%".

"Human Rights"

It is also mentioned further down the thread that this is taken into account before other multipliers. I take that to mean that forge would then increase +25% on top of the 45 hammers (for 11 more hammers), instead of the original 30 (for 7 more hammers), making it pretty powerful indeed for whips.

Edit: Ninja'd by bcool

 

[2metraninja]

More and more I look how far our only warrior is, more and more I want him back home. I see warrior kills in each 3-4 games so it is not something to be completely ignored as possible threat.

I think we had enough far scouting in the East, lets move him in closer orbit while circling counterclockwise to North and West.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I agree. The warrior should not go so far that he cant get back to the city if an enemy appears. Once we have BW and slavery and spare pop for quick whipping fine, send him to the ends of the Earth, but until we have BW move in a tight circle around the capital only. We still have a few turns before animals appear anyway.

 

[2metraninja]

Oh, and thanks to bcool and Yossarian for the answer. So it turns out that Kremlin is MF strong wonder - like making each of your cities equivalent to a Bureaucratic capitol when it comes to production via whipping!

 

[2metraninja]

WB Sommers, hope your trip was good

 

[YossarianLives]

I agree. The warrior should not go so far that he cant get back to the city if an enemy appears. Once we have BW and slavery and spare pop for quick whipping fine, send him to the ends of the Earth, but until we have BW move in a tight circle around the capital only. We still have a few turns before animals appear anyway.

Welcome back Sommers!

I was originally going to say how we should be safe to still go 7-7, but now that I've thought about it, I'm actually kind of paranoid. If that lion had been an enemy warrior, that's game over for us. One thing to maybe consider is putting 3 hammers into a warrior build, allowing us to complete it in 3 turns at any point if we see any other teams. That might throw our mm off though, so probably best to get the warrior closer to the capital ASAP.

 

[whb]

Do we theoretically need it one square closer than their viewing distance? (Could they double-move while outside our borders and thus not at war, and then force themselves into the first half of the turn-timer on crossing the border, declaring war and fixing us into the second half, ensuring they win any race?)

 

[cav scout]

I think we should go 7 onto the forest next with our warrior. If we get paranoid and run straight back to the capital we would get there right before our 2nd warrior is built. That would be a waste of valueable exploration time. We should stick with the plan of doing a counterclockwise circle at the current radius that will be complete a few turns before our first settler is ready. We need a good idea of the immediate neighborhood so we can plan the best spot for our 2nd city. We don't need to go out any further than we are now to get this info.

 

[talonschild]

7 is our best move regardless. It continues our exploratory circleand bring us one tile closer to our capital (6 vs 7).

 

[Caledorn]

So our next move is 7?

What about after that? 4 to get closer to Indira?

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[cav scout]

So our next move is 7?

What about after that? 4 to get closer to Indira?

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Nope, 7 again.

 

[talonschild]

Agreed. 7 agin still takes us to 5 tiles from Indira. From there we would have to go 4 to keep getting closer, though.

 

[YossarianLives]

So it does still seem to make the most sense to send the warrior 7-7, but then we need to decide if we want to bring him closer to the capital, or keep him out exploring at about a 5-tile distance.

I've got to say, I am feeling paranoid right now, but I have no idea what the best course of action is.

 

[bcool]

There are 2868 land tiles, are there 9 teams?

that means about 320 tiles per team maybe 17 x 17 space around the capital if everything is perfectly distributed (and there are no significant unoccupied land masses)

So we are probably about 17 tiles away from the nearest capitals.

I'm fine will being safe but I doubt anyone could reach us until T17 at the earliest (assuming they headed straight for us and didn't do any scouting around their own capital -- and don't encounter any animals and get hurt or killed)

 

[YossarianLives]

After logging into the game 4 times this turn, WPC never ended turn and allowed the timer to run out, so the turn has now flipped...

@bcool, I almost posted those calculations myself (or very similiar, I got about 18x18 space around each capital), but I don't know how accurate that is. If the map is mostly land with a bunch of small lakes, that space might be bigger. Conversely, if the map has a bunch of islands, there might be a lot fewer land tiles on the starting continent, so that space might be a lot smaller. I think we should be ok for a bit, but like I said, I'm feeling very paranoid right now, and just dread seeing another team wandering in out of the fog. Since our capital is on that hill, other teams might be able to see that it is not protected if they come up to our borders.

 

[bcool]

I think we are fine for a few more turns, but as I implied I'm fine with being safe.

So maybe more 7, 4,4,4 and then...
Sure keep the warrior within 3 until we are 3 turns away from building the 1st warrior.

 

[YossarianLives]

7-7-4-3 would also get us within three moves of the capital, and let's us explore a bit more.

What would make me feel more comfortable is if we had a good diplo response ready for anybody who might come out of the fog. Something like "We have kept our warrior nearby, but would prefer to let him continue circling around Indira, so please turn your warrior away" stated more diplomatically, and maybe offering a safe route around our city that keeps them out of view of the city tile. To this end, I think we need to head over to the Constitution thread and get elections under way so we actually have a Chief Diplomat when we meet someone, and don't waste time trying to figure out who's authorized to send a greeting.

 

[Caledorn]

Next turn we finish researching Agriculture, so unless 2metra has set a research queue, we need a new research goal for me to set as well as moving the warrior.

For the warrior I think 4 is the best move, as I believe we won't get much vision from moving into the forest at 7, while the hill will give us some bonus sight anyways? Of course, if people prefer 7 as the move, that's what we will move, but we can always move 7 again after we've moved 4 if we want to get more exploration away from the capital.